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Post by Robelite on Nov 6, 2009 13:08:06 GMT -5
That may well be true Julie, but going back to what I said above...WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SMART ONES! That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. WE are the spirit and life or our respective and collective BGLOs. If we don't ourselves have enough respect to abide by what we are the make-up of (whether we like it or not,) we are tredging a path toward our own destruction. Is there a better way....I certainly hope so. With all these bright minds that make up the NPHC, there should be some method of creating a productive and educational initiation experience. Will we survive long enough to get there....sometimes I'm not so sure.   As I have said, you can go back and look through out history of the so called "smart ones" and the so called "smart socities" and what they did when handed something they were told to abide by that they didn't agree with by their governing body. There was anarchy, there was over throwing of leaders and governments, etc. This is just history repeating itself, and greek orgs. are not going to be exempt because as you stated, we are orgs. made up of people.Yeah, but we may find ourselves non-existent because we choose to mock history....and that would be a shame. Every incident (the one in this thread and the death of the young man at PV) serve notice. Somebody'd better decide somewhere that BGLOs will do something different. Who are we trying to overthrow? Those anarchies you talked about were indeed due to cruel and oppressive governments. We're only destroying US with this form of rebellion. Society as a whole isn't suffering for our transgressions. |
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Post by adisa on Nov 6, 2009 13:11:58 GMT -5
Well dang. This was a good thread, and where the hell is VP these days?  |
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Post by Robelite on Nov 6, 2009 13:23:52 GMT -5
That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. is it? I'm thinking of an 18th century fraternity, where 13 chapters felt that the rules their HQ had set in place were impossible and unjust. They refused to follow them, despite being the spirit, the life (and the financial and labor powerhouse) of the organization. They dis-engaged from the previously agreed-upon social contract and created something even more beautiful, and on their own terms. ...or revolution So you are saying that these members who are brutalizing their aspirants are creating something more beautiful in their own terms? Is that what that 18th century fraternity was doing? Are the rules that YOUR headquarters have set forth unjust, and if so, is violating an initiation process the way to challenge them? That's what you seem to be saying. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 6, 2009 13:36:29 GMT -5
as for brutalizing; no. I'm not saying that. People who inujure and kill aspirants should go to jail. Their poor decision making shows that they lack the aptitude to be a part of the solution. I'm actually excluding outliers like them in my treatment of this subject. What I AM saying is that there are a great many mature and responsible members who simply wish for a realistic and rigorous intake process.
Rules that are unjust must be challenged. Period. Do EYE know the correct way to challenge them? Yes, and I do so whereever necessary (not just with intake). However, I argue that reasonable people with reasonable solutions can become quite UN-reasonable when they have exhausted all their options for justice and received no satisfaction. And sometimes...like that fraternity in 1776 I mentioned before...things get drastic.
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 13:58:37 GMT -5
That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. is it? I'm thinking of an 18th century fraternity, where 13 chapters felt that the rules their HQ had set in place were impossible and unjust. They refused to follow them, despite being the spirit, the life (and the financial and labor powerhouse) of the organization. They dis-engaged from the previously agreed-upon social contract and created something even more beautiful, and on their own terms. ...or revolution LOL! Get out my head Leja. I typed the something similar in the post above. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 6, 2009 14:00:31 GMT -5
I noticed! This may be the first time that's happened...let us celebrate. Meet me in games for some cake and likka
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 14:05:25 GMT -5
As I have said, you can go back and look through out history of the so called "smart ones" and the so called "smart socities" and what they did when handed something they were told to abide by that they didn't agree with by their governing body. There was anarchy, there was over throwing of leaders and governments, etc. This is just history repeating itself, and greek orgs. are not going to be exempt because as you stated, we are orgs. made up of people.Yeah, but we may find ourselves non-existent because we choose to mock history....and that would be a shame. Every incident (the one in this thread and the death of the young man at PV) serve notice. Somebody'd better decide somewhere that BGLOs will do something different. Who are we trying to overthrow? Those anarchies you talked about were indeed due to cruel and oppressive governments. We're only destroying US with this form of rebellion. Society as a whole isn't suffering for our transgressions. Has anything been destroyed because of disagreements? They either broke off and started a new, or new terms were brought up and agreed upon. And if it was broken, people met together to mend. And as I've stated, the overthrowing was used as an example, but leaders within respective orgs have been questioned about certain things, I'm sure there have been rumbles within these orgs that are only privy to members about what to do with a President the general membership isn't feeling, and some even have lawsuits pending against them right now. Because we are a group of so called smart people, when we are handed directives about things that we don't agree with, especially when the members at large were not asked their input on said directives, there will be disengaged members and people who will demonstrate, verbally disagree, etc. Since we are in a country that prides itself on freedom, you can't simply say to a person, hey, this is what the powers that be said. Yeah, you got no vote on it, but deal with it cause the powers that be said so, people are going to do as our forefathers did. "American Revolution, Civil War, AKA/DST" Surely Rob, you can't think that our orgs gonna be exempt from the circle of life and events that happen over and over again. Surely you jest! |
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 14:06:46 GMT -5
I noticed! This may be the first time that's happened...let us celebrate. Meet me in games for some cake and likka ::DEAD:: Is the likka sangria! I'm there ;D |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 14:51:21 GMT -5
Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me......
I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right?
They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!!
<insert smartass smirk here>
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Post by Oren Ishii on Nov 6, 2009 14:59:18 GMT -5
I know. I'll take my exalt now for brining it to your attention ;D And I miss VP too. Come back Prince, come back! Well dang. This was a good thread, and where the hell is VP these days? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 6, 2009 15:07:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether you were addressing me (in part) or whether your post has any merit. I did not get past your unnecessary f-bomb drop. *shrugs* Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> |
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 15:29:17 GMT -5
I defer to what my esteem collegue in the blue white said. I'm not sure whether you were addressing me (in part) or whether your post has any merit. I did not get past your unnecessary f-bomb drop. *shrugs* Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> |
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 15:32:43 GMT -5
Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> Actually, I will answer. History has shown over and over and over and over and over and OVER what happens when people feel disenfranchised. Greek orgs. aren't exempted from this, period, and for those who think they should be, well you aren't thinking realisticly. Until people meet from the top to the bottom to find a resolution, there will continue to be problems, as there have been in the past and the present, period. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 16:10:33 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether you were addressing me (in part) or whether your post has any merit. I did not get past your unnecessary f-bomb drop. *shrugs* Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> Unnecessary? According to....? Get out cha feelings...being sensitive is not a good disposition for someone arguing for a physical and aggressive process. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 16:14:30 GMT -5
Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> Actually, I will answer. History has shown over and over and over and over and over and OVER what happens when people feel disenfranchised. Greek orgs. aren't exempted from this, period, and for those who think they should be, well you aren't thinking realisticly. Until people meet from the top to the bottom to find a resolution, there will continue to be problems, as there have been in the past and the present, period. In the end, relaxing the hazing laws or changing the definition to remove certain actions will more than likely not occur since they are allowing individuals MORE freedom to put people at risk. |
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 17:04:27 GMT -5
Actually, I will answer. History has shown over and over and over and over and over and OVER what happens when people feel disenfranchised. Greek orgs. aren't exempted from this, period, and for those who think they should be, well you aren't thinking realisticly. Until people meet from the top to the bottom to find a resolution, there will continue to be problems, as there have been in the past and the present, period. In the end, relaxing the hazing laws or changing the definition to remove certain actions will more than likely not occur since they are allowing individuals MORE freedom to put people at risk. Who said anything about relaxing hazing laws or changing the definition? A thorough, informative process can be done to satisfy all in some shape, form, or fashion without breaking the governmental laws that are in place. You told Leja to get out her feelings, I'm tell you to stop being so narrow minded. For you to automatically assume relaxing hazing laws or changing the definition is what folks are after shows that you are more of the problem with this train of thought, then the solution and people who think and hold steadfast to this notion is the reason why we are having these problems in the first place. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 22:40:11 GMT -5
You said, "A thorough, informative process can be done to satisfy all in some shape, form, or fashion without breaking the governmental laws that are in place." I don't disagree with you...mostly. I'll explain why after this next quote. You also said, "For you to automatically assume relaxing hazing laws or changing the definition is what folks are after shows that you are more of the problem with this train of thought, then the solution and people who think and hold steadfast to this notion is the reason why we are having these problems in the first place. " The reason we are having these problems is because of reckless members and their notion that an increasingly more physical process helps to make members stronger. Period. Let's just get that out of the way because it's not true and it's not gonna happen. Members continue to complain about the process and the reason we will have this same conversation 10 years from now is because some people will continue to argue for a process like the "old days". Nothing less will be accepted. This will never happen...it just wont. Members who are stuck on the nostalgia of the "old process" can't see forward because they are always looking back. Instead of examining possible ways of moving forward with the development of a better process, members want to change the law so that they can go back to the old way. This is asinine and counterproductive. If my earlier language offended you Leja or Juicy, I apologize. It is not my intention to offend. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 7, 2009 11:10:33 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether you were addressing me (in part) or whether your post has any merit. I did not get past your unnecessary f-bomb drop. *shrugs* Unnecessary? According to....? Get out cha feelings...being sensitive is not a good disposition for someone arguing for a physical and aggressive process. Not sensitive. Just not tolerating your cursing at me. |
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Post by huey on Nov 7, 2009 18:51:58 GMT -5
Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me...... I know a whole handful of teachers who would love to paddle their kids but despite corporal punishment being legal in some states, those school districts still forbid it. So are teachers going to revolt? Hell, if anyone has a right to do so it should be them, right? They don't like the rules...Teachers have molded children for centuries and across cultures by using corporal punishment. This should be added back to the school system IMMEDIATELY! If it isn't, then teachers all over the world are going to start crying for revolution!! <insert smartass smirk here> Teach in my school district. Corporal punishment will make a world of difference! |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 8, 2009 0:53:19 GMT -5
Unnecessary? According to....? Get out cha feelings...being sensitive is not a good disposition for someone arguing for a physical and aggressive process. Not sensitive. Just not tolerating your cursing at me. Ok....... |
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Post by Comedy on Nov 8, 2009 14:24:08 GMT -5
Wow...sensitive people still post here? Not sensitive. Just not tolerating your cursing at me. Ok....... |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 9, 2009 10:03:41 GMT -5
You know... Juicy said something that I think bears repeating.
Until people meet from the top to the bottom to find a resolution, there will continue to be problems
It's not pledging that is going to be the death of D9 orgs as oft prophesized - it's that ever increasing divide that comes from refusal to truly listen to ALL members. For almost 20 years now members have been telling those in power that the intake process is flawed. 20 years. And who is listening? All we get are a bunch of "canned" answers often times from people in their ivory towers, who do not have to suffer under the auspicies of the policies that they champion...
...definitively CONFIRMING that they are not listening. How can you expect someone to show respect for rules to which they had no input and with which they disagree, while refusing to show respect for their concerns/issues about said rules?
I remember another time in recent history that this kind of thing has played out - the Rodney King trial. Many rappers for years had talked about angst, anger, and disccord with police officers and abuse. But who was listening? After the officers acquittal what were we told by many right leaning pundits? Respect the verdict. Afterall it was done by the rules. And of course if it's a rule, it's inherently right.
To be sure, I am not suggesting that this issue is just about pledging/hazing. Even if pledging is addressed, we can be confident that whatever compromise comes out will be "too far" for some and "too little" for others. But that's not the great danger here. The great danger is that you have a populace who has come to believe that "they know best" so they need not listen. They need only instruct.
That way madness lies...
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 9, 2009 12:50:23 GMT -5
You said, "A thorough, informative process can be done to satisfy all in some shape, form, or fashion without breaking the governmental laws that are in place." I don't disagree with you...mostly. I'll explain why after this next quote. You also said, "For you to automatically assume relaxing hazing laws or changing the definition is what folks are after shows that you are more of the problem with this train of thought, then the solution and people who think and hold steadfast to this notion is the reason why we are having these problems in the first place. " The reason we are having these problems is because of reckless members and their notion that an increasingly more physical process helps to make members stronger. Period. Let's just get that out of the way because it's not true and it's not gonna happen. Members continue to complain about the process and the reason we will have this same conversation 10 years from now is because some people will continue to argue for a process like the "old days". Nothing less will be accepted. This will never happen...it just wont. Members who are stuck on the nostalgia of the "old process" can't see forward because they are always looking back. Instead of examining possible ways of moving forward with the development of a better process, members want to change the law so that they can go back to the old way. This is asinine and counterproductive. If my earlier language offended you Leja or Juicy, I apologize. It is not my intention to offend. I was going to respond to this today, but Damie basically broke it down with his last post that I don't need to. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 9, 2009 12:53:00 GMT -5
If my earlier language offended you Leja or Juicy, I apologize. It is not my intention to offend. I appreciate this. Thanks. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2009 13:21:36 GMT -5
In most organizations you have several issues, only one of which is the problem of exclusion.
Another issue that hinders progress is that you have extremes on both sides. There are members who would rather intake be more like a honorary society. Then there are the ones who will settle for nothing less than walking in line with shaved heads, singing and taking wood.
The problem is not that people at the top squeeze out those with ideas that are in favor of a more ...let's say "lively" process. The problem is that those who advocate the lively process either refuse to compromise on certain things or decide that "The Man" is keeping them down and choose not to participate in the discusion. Trust me....there are more people in power who believe in "getting down" than not. What tempers their hand?
I've said several times and for several years that our organizations should look at other models for intake. A barrier to that is what I mentioned earlier: either people want a complete change where we eradicate all traditional aspects of pledging or we bring back most aspects of pledging and just do a better job in managing the chapters.
Neither will work and yet with all the intellectual capital we have at our fingertips....they are all we have.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Nov 9, 2009 13:28:45 GMT -5
<---requests that Cam elaborate on the "problems of exclusion"
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 9, 2009 13:38:48 GMT -5
In most organizations you have several issues, only one of which is the problem of exclusion. Another issue that hinders progress is that you have extremes on both sides. There are members who would rather intake be more like a honorary society. Then there are the ones who will settle for nothing less than walking in line with shaved heads, singing and taking wood. The problem is not that people at the top squeeze out those with ideas that are in favor of a more ...let's say "lively" process. The problem is that those who advocate the lively process either refuse to compromise on certain things or decide that "The Man" is keeping them down and choose not to participate in the discusion. Trust me....there are more people in power who believe in "getting down" than not. What tempers their hand? I've said several times and for several years that our organizations should look at other models for intake. A barrier to that is what I mentioned earlier: either people want a complete change where we eradicate all traditional aspects of pledging or we bring back most aspects of pledging and just do a better job in managing the chapters. Neither will work and yet with all the intellectual capital we have at our fingertips....they are all we have. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2009 13:46:19 GMT -5
@ 91- Problem of exclusion referred to administration or decision makers excluding others from the conversation or decision making process. May have been a bad choice of words but it's what popped out at the time.
@ Damie - True. That's why I asked the question, "What tempers their hand" or put a better way, what tempers their fervor for that time long past.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Nov 9, 2009 13:50:23 GMT -5
It's all good Cam. I was just trying to see if you were with me in that part of the problem we faces as organizations is how far we've gotten away from our "exclusive" origins. Everything ain't for everybodyand some of the problems we have are manifestations/consequences of the broader composition of our memberships. Ok, carry on......  |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2009 13:58:09 GMT -5
@ 91- I did make that argument just this morning to some of my chapter members.
Our founders fought to have Alpha let go of the elitist badge they wore for so long.....they obviously succeeded.
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