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Post by Oldskool on Apr 21, 2009 20:33:13 GMT -5
Clearly there are two schools of thought here. I know many here don’t agree with pledging and that’s fine – Stick to your guns as I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion. However, don’t be so quick to look at these publicized accounts of hazing and make a general blanket statement like, “See, this is what happens when you pledge”. The reality is, the majority of pledge processes are meaningful to aspirants and are ran by competent individuals. Just look at how many lines go over “without” incident. There’s no comparison. Does that not count for anything? I know, I know - probably not. Now sadly, there are those instances where members put in charge to oversee a process are incompetent, inexperienced or allow emotion or personal vendettas to rear their ugly heads. When that happens, problems will indeed arise. While those isolated incidents are unfortunate (and few and far between), do I think this is the “norm” for most processes? No, I honestly do not and these instances don’t make me waver in my support of pledging. Contrary to belief, well balanced, safe and successful pledge processes are still being carried out frequently and consistently. Many of us Greeks, well the majority of us Greeks, still value and care about keeping the tradition of pledging alive - And not surprisingly, there are still many aspirants who want that experience as well. I know that’s a hard pill to swallow for some, but it’s the simple truth. The pro and con argument on the worth and purpose of pledging will rage on and that’s okay. But what many will have to accept, like it or not, is that until some of the laws around hazing change (which is not likely), “underground” pledging in some form or fashion will remain as we know it. Welcome to Post 90’s Greekdom. Carry on… |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 21, 2009 21:06:40 GMT -5
@vp My very seasoned soror has provided an opinion based on many cirmcumstances, and the stance on pledging versus non-pledging is an argument that will stand the test of time. I think both sides are coming from very different points of view, experiences, and therefore has resulted in a mild debate. However, when you are from different organizations, you are going formulate very different opinions, and no member of one org should cast a judegment call on the other. Lets nicely leave it that. Thanks Signed Interesting 
Instead of something like:
No one else wants to say it? No problem - I will. The above quote is completely uncalled for... whether uttered by someone in for 38 years or 38 minutes. I can only imagine what the response might have been had this been reversed but I digress. We all go hard in the paint right? No blood, no foul. So we'll chalk it up and keep it moving.
For the record I cosign EVERYTHING VP said about the DP/ADP Parent Model. Ironically THAT is what keeps pledging from becoming hazing when done right - but if that's now how others do it - so be it. We do. And I accept that we are different - and that doesn't make anyone else right or wrong - just different. |
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Post by Southie on Apr 21, 2009 21:28:16 GMT -5
Again, discussion in mixed company is not good and therefore making accusations about other orgs based "so called" documentation is above and beyond the point. So my point stands, sticking to things to things that pertaint o my org and not providing hearsay regarding another org.
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Post by Southie on Apr 21, 2009 21:29:09 GMT -5
...and I will not argue against my seasoned soror.
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 21, 2009 22:12:28 GMT -5
Damie got a point. What Old Skool said about Omegas was more personal opinion then anything else. If something like that had been said by Vudu or anyone else about Zeta, we all would have cried foul.
I mean, what was said really was an insult, especially to the members of said organization.
And I wouldn't expect you to disagree with your soror Southie in mixed company. Anything else would be uncivilized, lol!
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Post by Oldskool on Apr 21, 2009 23:27:53 GMT -5
Damie got a point. What Old Skool said about Omegas was more personal opinion then anything else. If something like that had been said by Vudu or anyone else about Zeta, we all would have cried foul. I mean, what was said really was an insult, especially to the members of said organization. And I wouldn't expect you to disagree with your soror Southie in mixed company. Anything else would be uncivilized, lol! |
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Post by Oldskool on Apr 21, 2009 23:59:17 GMT -5
quote by Damie Federline
No one else wants to say it? No problem - I will. The above quote is completely uncalled for... whether uttered by someone in for 38 years or 38 minutes. I can only imagine what the response might have been had this been reversed but I digress.
Damie Ferdeline, you are absolutely correct. I was out of bounds. It was uncalled for and I was wrong. I am sorry for having offended the Omegas. I should not have generalized to an entire organization or a group of people based on my emotional response to a specific person or comment.
Vudu is trying to equate pledging/hazing to parenting. Here is where the break is. Parenting has a lifelong connection whether you want it to be or not. There is a self sacrifice involved in parenting that pledging can never attain. You might be a part of a BGLO, the military, athletic group, social club, or any other voluntary entity, but none of them can reach the level of connection between the discipliner and the disciplinee as parenting. I qualiify to make this statement because I am both.
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Apr 22, 2009 5:39:53 GMT -5
quote by Damie Federline No one else wants to say it? No problem - I will. The above quote is completely uncalled for... whether uttered by someone in for 38 years or 38 minutes. I can only imagine what the response might have been had this been reversed but I digress. Damie Ferdeline, you are absolutely correct. I was out of bounds. It was uncalled for and I was wrong. I am sorry for having offended the Omegas. I should not have generalized to an entire organization or a group of people based on my emotional response to a specific person or comment..
GOOD STUFF!!! |
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Post by Southie on Apr 22, 2009 7:30:39 GMT -5
quote by Damie Federline No one else wants to say it? No problem - I will. The above quote is completely uncalled for... whether uttered by someone in for 38 years or 38 minutes. I can only imagine what the response might have been had this been reversed but I digress. Damie Ferdeline, you are absolutely correct. I was out of bounds. It was uncalled for and I was wrong. I am sorry for having offended the Omegas. I should not have generalized to an entire organization or a group of people based on my emotional response to a specific person or comment.
Vudu is trying to equate pledging/hazing to parenting. Here is where the break is. Parenting has a lifelong connection whether you want it to be or not. There is a self sacrifice involved in parenting that pledging can never attain. You might be a part of a BGLO, the military, athletic group, social club, or any other voluntary entity, but none of them can reach the level of connection between the discipliner and the disciplinee as parenting. I qualiify to make this statement because I am both.
Very well stated. I agree. |
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Post by icebraka on Apr 22, 2009 8:37:52 GMT -5
Oldskool......we probably know the same Omegas that you speak of.
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Post by No Screen Name on Apr 22, 2009 9:31:53 GMT -5
quote by Damie Federline No one else wants to say it? No problem - I will. The above quote is completely uncalled for... whether uttered by someone in for 38 years or 38 minutes. I can only imagine what the response might have been had this been reversed but I digress. Damie Ferdeline, you are absolutely correct. I was out of bounds. It was uncalled for and I was wrong. I am sorry for having offended the Omegas. I should not have generalized to an entire organization or a group of people based on my emotional response to a specific person or comment.
I agree, good stuff.  One of the MANY reasons I love this board so. Anywhere else, this would have been a 22-page all-out BRAWL with folks being called everything but a child of God.  |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 22, 2009 13:11:27 GMT -5
Lets be clear again where I stand before my thoughts are shrewn everywhere. From the beginning I have stated that the pledge process is a microcosm of your upbringing. Let's define what microcosm is for those who don't know.
Microcosm- n. A small, representative system having analogies to a larger system in constitution, configuration, or development
Now lets look at the structure Universally of the pledge process.
You have a Dean and you have a ADP. Some have sub Deans such as Dean of History etc etc but the heads of the process universally are the Dean first and the ADP second. They are mimicking the parental model. They are the "parents" of the line. Ying and Yang, Cause and Effect, Father and Mother.
You have your chapter brothers/sisters and visiting brothers/sisters. This is representative of the extended family. The oldest brother/sister in the room gets deference because its a connect with the Grand Parent. Everyone else in between is mimicking the cousins, uncles, aunts, etc etc.
Finally you have the line. Universally we term each other brother or sister. The line relationship mimic's the sibling relationship. It's different than the casual acquaintance. No matter how bad your day has went, if you upset with someone today, if you sick, whatever it is when it is time to have set, congregate, etc you have to be there in line with your brothers and sisters. There is no going home today I don't feel like hanging out. There is no petty differences that go unsolved. These are your brothers and sisters in your org as you go on the journey in an attempt to get a bond as it is with your own siblings.
An example of this is with us. Our Dean would tell us to do something and for the most part we would do it 98% of the time. If it wasn't done correctly or not at all then it was consequences. Your parents tell you do something if it wasn't done correctly or not at all then it was consequences. I recognized the connect when at times we would listen to our old chapter bruh from 82 with when I as a 10 year old was punished and couldn't go outside but my Grand Mother would call for me to go to the store. I would tell her that I was punished and she would say okay make sure you lock the door before you are on your way here.... Deference Yes Maam I'm on my way. My own mother to this day over rules me sometimes as in concern to my own children. I show her deference. We cant bump our gums and not thoroughly explain to these kids what the process really is. Once they see it for what it really is then they would have a deeper understanding and meaning. If they first know better then they will do better. Your organization on a small scale seeks to mimic the bond that you have with your real family. If kids growing up today don't have that at home then the process on a small scale can be very valuable to them. I have seen brothers who never wore a suit in their life break down just because they attending a formal setting having a meeting and breaking bread. Our meetings mimic family meetings. When we break bread together it mimics family dinner. I have seen brothers break down and cry because they never had a family. Never had a father. Never had real brothers. Never been in a family setting....
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Post by Cambist on Apr 23, 2009 7:04:31 GMT -5
Oldskool......we probably know the same Omegas that you speak of. Why did I laugh at this? |
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Post by Cambist on Apr 23, 2009 7:19:43 GMT -5
I totally agree and understand with VP's comparison but let me add on.
The way i've seen organizations operate today and they way they've obviously operated in the last 25 years or so seems to also be an extension of that same microcosm.
As the rules of our society changed, so did the "parenting" style. Just like in the greater society, parents got younger and less focused on their primary duty of raising children. They became more and more self centered as each generation failed to pass down the lessons of old. Whippings became a sho nuff beat down and even that, unchecked, can be dangerous.
Kids had and have to grow up faster and they do so in an environment that's unprepared to give them the proper lessons.
Often times, many of us in the Black community fail to adapt and teach our kids important lessons as we choose to outsource that to someone else (school, church, etc...)This is also a function of the ignorant (in the true sense of the word) parent.
So what we end up with is more cases of child abuse and neglect. And I do recognize that a lot of the abuse charges are due to a change the rules that were made to protect the children but we still must observe them.
It's still early, i'll re-read this post in a minute and see if it makes sense. LOL!
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Post by icebraka on Apr 23, 2009 8:13:48 GMT -5
Oldskool......we probably know the same Omegas that you speak of. Why did I laugh at this? because you know ;D   |
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Post by FatalDST on Apr 23, 2009 14:13:13 GMT -5
who she speak of?!?!?!
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Post by icebraka on Apr 24, 2009 8:19:01 GMT -5
Probably Rho Theta....... |
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Post by Oren Ishii on Nov 4, 2009 14:39:47 GMT -5
Yeah, it's old, but this was a darn good thread.
How I miss a little spirited debate on OO *tears*
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 5, 2009 17:37:45 GMT -5
I read the title and aruthor of this thread like wait, I created this? Then I had to read it, it was a good thread, lol!
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Post by Oldskool on Nov 5, 2009 19:02:26 GMT -5
Yes, it was a good thread. We need to reopen the discussion about pledging turning into hazing. There is a nut on SH who says that there are ways to physically haze somebody without it being detrimental to his/her health. How are we to know someone's physical limits. If a person makes it through one week of physical abuse and sleep deprivation, do we keep pushing that individual until he faints? What is the purpose of making someone shout info while running sprints?
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 5, 2009 23:41:13 GMT -5
98% of us on this board knows exactly who you talking about too, lol!
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Post by denounced on Nov 6, 2009 1:51:39 GMT -5
Pledging is hazing...........
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 8:16:38 GMT -5
Pledging is hazing........... I tend to agree. Technically, I can think of very few instances where pledging is not hazing. Now, is all hazing absolutely bad or dangerous? No. It's done all the time in most organizations (to some extent). We are fooling ourselves when we say that BGLO's can pledge without hazing. The concern is with brutality or the degree of the hazing. Also, relying on adolescent minds to know when it's enough. |
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Post by Oldskool on Nov 6, 2009 11:07:53 GMT -5
Pledging is hazing........... I tend to agree. Technically, I can think of very few instances where pledging is not hazing. Now, is all hazing absolutely bad or dangerous? No. It's done all the time in most organizations (to some extent). We are fooling ourselves when we say that BGLO's can pledge without hazing. The concern is with brutality or the degree of the hazing. Also, relying on adolescent minds to know when it's enough. |
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Post by Robelite on Nov 6, 2009 11:09:13 GMT -5
Pledging is hazing........... I tend to agree. Technically, I can think of very few instances where pledging is not hazing. Now, is all hazing absolutely bad or dangerous? No. It's done all the time in most organizations (to some extent). We are fooling ourselves when we say that BGLO's can pledge without hazing. The concern is with brutality or the degree of the hazing.
Also, relying on adolescent minds to know when it's enough.Now see there Cam, there you go....making sense again!! How dare you!! One other matter hidden beneath this discussion about pledging/hazing/MIP, etc......while many are discussing ways to develop a "process" that will/might deter the kinds of tragedies that are the subject of this thread....somewhere, somehow, I just want to know why in hell can't/won't our fellow greeks simply stop doing what they ALREADY know is wrong and abide by their damned constitutions and by-laws? Why is THAT so much to ask of allegedly intelligent individuals who are SUPPOSED to set the example for their contemporaries?   Personal responsibility....despite everything else ladies and gentlemen, it will always come down to personal responsibility. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 6, 2009 11:39:47 GMT -5
Because criminals, by definition, don't follow the law.
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 12:24:29 GMT -5
Or, it's hard to follow something you don't agree with. You can look through out history and socities for examples. As have been said before, these greek orgnizations are just smaller examples of socities.
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Post by Robelite on Nov 6, 2009 12:58:05 GMT -5
Or, it's hard to follow something you don't agree with. You can look through out history and socities for examples. As have been said before, these greek orgnizations are just smaller examples of socities. That may well be true Julie, but going back to what I said above...WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SMART ONES! That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. WE are the spirit and life or our respective and collective BGLOs. If we don't ourselves have enough respect to abide by what we are the make-up of (whether we like it or not,) we are tredging a path toward our own destruction. Is there a better way....I certainly hope so. With all these bright minds that make up the NPHC, there should be some method of creating a productive and educational initiation experience. Will we survive long enough to get there....sometimes I'm not so sure.  |
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Post by Julie Art on Nov 6, 2009 13:02:40 GMT -5
Or, it's hard to follow something you don't agree with. You can look through out history and socities for examples. As have been said before, these greek orgnizations are just smaller examples of socities. That may well be true Julie, but going back to what I said above...WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SMART ONES! That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. WE are the spirit and life or our respective and collective BGLOs. If we don't ourselves have enough respect to abide by what we are the make-up of (whether we like it or not,) we are tredging a path toward our own destruction. Is there a better way....I certainly hope so. With all these bright minds that make up the NPHC, there should be some method of creating a productive and educational initiation experience. Will we survive long enough to get there....sometimes I'm not so sure. As I have said, you can go back and look through out history of the so called "smart ones" and the so called "smart socities" and what they did when handed something they were told to abide by that they didn't agree with by their governing body. There was anarchy, there was over throwing of leaders and governments, etc. This is just history repeating itself, and greek orgs. are not going to be exempt because as you stated, we are orgs. made up of people. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 6, 2009 13:04:00 GMT -5
That being said, to choose not to follow the rules that OUR OWN orgs have set down, is an oxymoron. is it? I'm thinking of an 18th century fraternity, where 13 chapters felt that the rules their HQ had set in place were impossible and unjust. They refused to follow them, despite being the spirit, the life (and the financial and labor powerhouse) of the organization. They dis-engaged from the previously agreed-upon social contract and created something even more beautiful, and on their own terms. ...or revolution |
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