Jesus & the Order...

[Oren Ishii]

*NOTE: This thread is based on the premise that Jesus was, in fact, a literal, historic figure - not an allegory. Don't come in here trying to debate His existence. That's not the point of the thread. I'm looking at YOU, VP. *side eye followed by ((HUG))*

Okay, you guys know I'm a converted Catholic.

In my church, it was pretty much common knowledge that Jesus belonged to a "secret society" called the Holy Order of the Essenes. In a lot of ways, they were similar to modern monks, BUT not in every way.

Supposedly, they also created a mystery school & used some practical magick (there's a reason for spelling it this way) & ritual.

If this is true, how do you feel about Jesus's participation? Would it change your views of The Christ at all?

[Julie Art]

What was the society about?

[Oren Ishii]

Hey Julie!

The most commonly known accomplishment of the Essenes is the Dead Sea Scrolls - a set of recently "discovered" religious works now associated with Christianity.

According to Wikipedia (I didn't feel like looking for additional sources right now, sorry):

The accounts by Josephus and Philo show that the Essenes led a strictly celibate and communal life – often compared by scholars to later Christian monastic living – although Josephus speaks also of another "rank of Essenes" that did get married.[37] According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership,[38][39] elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed,[40] were forbidden from swearing oaths[41] and sacrificing animals,[42] controlled their temper and served as channels of peace,[41] carried weapons only as protection against robbers,[43] had no slaves but served each other[44] and, as a result of communal ownership, did not engage in trading.[45]


However, they were also associated with the Kabbalah (a mystical system). They are thought to have maintained some of the Zoroastrian [arugably, a major component of the foundations of modern Christianity] magick/mystical rituals as well as Kabbalistic magick.

[Vudu_Prince]

How could the proof of existence of Jesus not be valid when attempting to put him within a group that arguably didnt exist either. Furthermore the mentions of Jesus in Josephus works are forgeries and nor did he include Jesus in with the essenes. The earliest work of my knowledge that Jesus was included with these folks was The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ by Levi Dooling. That was written in the early 1900's. You can't ask for real opinions and want folks to slide the major facts about this group or the person in question. Also concerning the Kaballah and even the Talmud it centers around ritual sodomy just as Catholicism does and the rest of their religious and "secret" societies. Can't separate the facts

[Noble Work]

This ought to be good.....

[Oren Ishii]

*sigh*

The [IYO, questionable] existence of Jesus is, in the case of the question posed, irrelevant.

I posed the question geared specifically toward the Christian perspective. I want to know the opinions of people who live their lives from that ideological framework. I'm NOT looking to make this a debate on the existence of either the person or the entity who are subjects of the query.

The premise with which we are working, Brother, is:

1. Jesus did exist (at least, from the standpoint of the Judeo-Christian belief system).
2. He may have been a member of the Holy Order of the Essenes.

Based upon that premise ONLY, I'd like to hear the Christian perspective of how such information (and its spiritual/mystical implications) affects their view of the 'Saviour.'

You & I can debate Kabbalistic tradition, its origins, methodologies & powers another day, in another thread.

Mmkay? *kiss kiss*

[Vudu_Prince]

May 20, 2010 15:30:50 GMT -5 Oren Ishii said:

*sigh*

The [IYO, questionable] existence of Jesus is, in the case of the question posed, irrelevant.

I posed the question geared specifically toward the Christian perspective. I want to know the opinions of people who live their lives from that ideological framework. I'm NOT looking to make this a debate on the existence of either the person or the entity who are subjects of the query.

The premise with which we are working, Brother, is:

1. Jesus did exist (at least, from the standpoint of the Judeo-Christian belief system).
2. He may have been a member of the Holy Order of the Essenes.

Based upon that premise ONLY, I'd like to hear the Christian perspective of how such information (and its spiritual/mystical implications) affects their view of the 'Saviour.'

You & I can debate Kabbalistic tradition, its origins, methodologies & powers another day, in another thread.

Mmkay? *kiss kiss*

Okay the Essenes(of they existed based on the teachings) practiced ritual sodomy just as catholic priest do and orthodox Jews do right now today. How does that make YOU feel? Shall we slide that fact away too? Any religious society that is against balance by practice i.e. male female interpersonal relationships is totally off base. It is against duality, balance and life itself. There is my tidbit. If the Essenes were against cohabitation with women then we can stop right there. No need to go any further.

[Julie Art]

May 20, 2010 14:41:53 GMT -5 Oren Ishii said:

Hey Julie!

The most commonly known accomplishment of the Essenes is the Dead Sea Scrolls - a set of recently "discovered" religious works now associated with Christianity.

According to Wikipedia (I didn't feel like looking for additional sources right now, sorry):

The accounts by Josephus and Philo show that the Essenes led a strictly celibate and communal life – often compared by scholars to later Christian monastic living – although Josephus speaks also of another "rank of Essenes" that did get married.[37] According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership,[38][39] elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed,[40] were forbidden from swearing oaths[41] and sacrificing animals,[42] controlled their temper and served as channels of peace,[41] carried weapons only as protection against robbers,[43] had no slaves but served each other[44] and, as a result of communal ownership, did not engage in trading.[45]


However, they were also associated with the Kabbalah (a mystical system). They are thought to have maintained some of the Zoroastrian [arugably, a major component of the foundations of modern Christianity] magick/mystical rituals as well as Kabbalistic magick.

Hmmmm. I'd have to think on this.

[Julie Art]

May 20, 2010 15:30:50 GMT -5 Oren Ishii said:

*sigh*

The [IYO, questionable] existence of Jesus is, in the case of the question posed, irrelevant.

I posed the question geared specifically toward the Christian perspective. I want to know the opinions of people who live their lives from that ideological framework. I'm NOT looking to make this a debate on the existence of either the person or the entity who are subjects of the query.

The premise with which we are working, Brother, is:

1. Jesus did exist (at least, from the standpoint of the Judeo-Christian belief system).
2. He may have been a member of the Holy Order of the Essenes.

Based upon that premise ONLY, I'd like to hear the Christian perspective of how such information (and its spiritual/mystical implications) affects their view of the 'Saviour.'

You & I can debate Kabbalistic tradition, its origins, methodologies & powers another day, in another thread.

Mmkay? *kiss kiss*

Bolded part, if this doesn't apply to a poster and what they believe, etc., then why answer? I don't believe in Judaism (sp?), Islam, Buddah, etc. so if a question was asked about any of those religions and the question was geared towards those who DO believe, since I don't, why would I answer? How would my viewpoint be relevant to the discussion of believers when I don't believe in it the first place?

Everything isn't meant for a debate or argument, seriously, and those who think it is needs some serious intrapersonal skills.

[Vudu_Prince]

Interesting ^^^^^

Essenes were a Jewish religious order. Since you aren't Jewish or into Judaism I guess this is when you bow out of the conversation right?

[Julie Art]

May 20, 2010 16:14:44 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Interesting ^^^^^

Essenes were a Jewish religious order. Since you aren't Jewish or into Judaism I guess this is when you bow out of the conversation right?

Uh, no, seeing how Jesus was a Jew and was fullfilling the prophecy of the coming savior. I'm sure you know where Jews and Christians differ is that we believe Jesus is the savior while the Jews are still waiting. AND this particular question asks how do those who BELIEVE in Jesus would feel about that. If you don't believe in Jesus, why answer? Dude, seriously.

How can I comment on a Jewish question when it deals with when the savior comes or who the savior might be when I believe he has come? Not that hard to understand, really. Stop always trying to bait folks who don't think like you. It is really old.

Don't assume that you think you know what others know when you don't. Real talk.

[Vudu_Prince]

No one is trying to bait anything. You owned yourself. The Essenes were a Jewish order period. Furthermore Jesus was stated to be a jew by race (though a Jewish race doesn't exist) but by practice he was not. If he were then he wouldn't have had to teach anything. He is just as much Jewish as Muhammad was. Judaism was used by the writers of both religions for legitimation reasons.

You really need to stop being closed minded, sensitive and self centered. I could care less if someone thinks like me or not. When a question is posed everyone provides their opinion. This is a message board. People make topics and folks volley their opinions. If there is a difference of opinion then that is a debate by the definition. If you don't like my stance, delivery or whatever then thats tough. You're not on my agenda so keep it moving.

[Julie Art]

For the 1st paragraph, I'm not going down that road with you. That is how you interpret the Bible and everyone is free to their own interpretation.

2nd paragraph, you say this ALL the time. It's always a different topic, but the same method with you. You say others, or lets just go with me here, are closed minded, sensitive, and self centered, yet you are the one whenever you are debating with someone that results to name calling, cursing, and trying to insult saying someone isn't on your agenda , radar, so keep it moving, yada, yada, yada, yada. All those are signs that lead to you being in your feelings, not the other poster you are debating, engaging, whatever.

This is a message board, and people are free to offer their opinions. But I believe specifically that the starter of THIS thread said that she was posing this question to those who do believe, and that we are not arguing of the exsitence of Jesus. And even with that, EVEN with saying your name and saying basically this is not the topic of this discussion so lets not go there please, you do anyway. Typical. You say others don't like your stance, but you don't like other's stances. You often try to project onto others what is really true of you, IMO.

At any rate, I do not care to engage further in fruitless communication with you cause you will do what you normally do, tbe sensitive and in your feelings and start trying to call someone out, or whatever, and then say the other poster is being sensitive, and it's just a never ending circle!

Good Day.

@ Muse, what was the purpose of this society?

[Vudu_Prince]

May 20, 2010 18:44:29 GMT -5 Julie Art said:

For the 1st paragraph, I'm not going down that road with you. That is how you interpret the Bible and everyone is free to their own interpretation.

2nd paragraph, you say this ALL the time. It's always a different topic, but the same method with you. You say others, or lets just go with me here, are closed minded, sensitive, and self centered, yet you are the one whenever you are debating with someone that results to name calling, cursing, and trying to insult saying someone isn't on your agenda , radar, so keep it moving, yada, yada, yada, yada. All those are signs that lead to you being in your feelings, not the other poster you are debating, engaging, whatever.

This is a message board, and people are free to offer their opinions. But I believe specifically that the starter of THIS thread said that she was posing this question to those who do believe, and that we are not arguing of the exsitence of Jesus. And even with that, EVEN with saying your name and saying basically this is not the topic of this discussion so lets not go there please, you do anyway. Typical. You say others don't like your stance, but you don't like other's stances. You often try to project onto others what is really true of you, IMO.

At any rate, I do not care to engage further in fruitless communication with you cause you will do what you normally do, tbe sensitive and in your feelings and start trying to call someone out, or whatever, and then say the other poster is being sensitive, and it's just a never ending circle!

Good Day.

@ Muse, what was the purpose of this society?

And I don't give a damn. Get a life. Stop being a cheerleader all the time and go outside for some fresh air. You be on here TO damn much. I didn't even read what you typed. I'm sure it a typical response from you though. In life EVERYONE has an opinion. Everyone can speak their mind. If you don't like it then again tough. This is the damn internet sheesh. Somebody give this lady a password only section on the board or something.

[nsync]

So now..........Jesus was not a Jew by practice. ..........................................................
...................................................................
.......................................................................?

Mary was Jewish. Traditional Jewish law states if the mother is Jewish the child is Jewish. The culture and the religion are intertwined. Many time Jesus referred back to Jewish scriptures and prophets. He participated in their feats, festival and holidays. He spoke of the Father(referencing the Jewish God) At best you can state Jesus was a reformed Jew or he was pressing for reformation of Jewish law (based heavily on religion).

However, Jesus was a Jew culturally and religiously.

To the original question would it change my view of The Christ? Nope.

Although, I guess at this point my views are not typical. I think understanding the "historical Jesus" is awesome. It's very intriguing. Jesus was a man, so I am sure he did many "normal" things that people prefer not to think of or even mention in fear of blasphemy...like going to the bathroom. lol

It's amazing how many circles can't fathom the human side of Jesus. They somehow think that takes away from the truth.

This is an interesting topic. I have never heard of the above order. I will look into it more.

[nsync]

Maybe I have heard of it...but I'm not sure. I will research a little bit later.

[Oren Ishii]

@julie:

Their purpose was to live a devout life. They were a brotherhood of spiritual believers who followed the same faith & edicts.

Here's a little more about how they lived:

They were outstanding in their uniformly holy and unselfish life; their abstinence from visiting the Temple or taking part in bloody sacrifices;
Their unbounded love of virtue and their contempt for earthly fame, riches, pleasures;
Their industry and temperance, the latter including a vegetarian diet and abstinece from intoxicants;
Their modesty and simplicity of life;
Their contentment of mind and cheerfulness of temper;
Their love of order and truth and their abhorence of falsehood;
Their benevolence and philanthropy;
Their following peace with all men.

Known to all was their hatred of slavey and war, their aversion to oaths, wearing of wool, or using of oil, their tender regard for children and for the aged, their attendance of the sick, and readiness to relieve the distressed, their investigation of plants and minerals for healing, and their miraculous cures.

- From RAYS FROM THE ROSE CROSS, The Rosicrucian Fellowship Magazine, December 1956.

It's believed that Jesus was initiated & taught by them in the early years before he began his ministry.

Their lifestyle (or, many aspects of it) has been adopted as an example of the archetypal Christian lifestyle. They did, however, have roots in a more ancient religion call Zoroastrianism. It is believed that they incorporated many of the mystical/ritual practices of it & Kabbalah into their later spiritual practices.

[Julie Art]

May 20, 2010 19:18:50 GMT -5 @nsync said:

So now..........Jesus was not a Jew by practice. ..........................................................
...................................................................
.......................................................................?

Mary was Jewish. Traditional Jewish law states if the mother is Jewish the child is Jewish. The culture and the religion are intertwined. Many time Jesus referred back to Jewish scriptures and prophets. He participated in their feats, festival and holidays. He spoke of the Father(referencing the Jewish God) At best you can state Jesus was a reformed Jew or he was pressing for reformation of Jewish law (based heavily on religion).

However, Jesus was a Jew culturally and religiously.

To the original question would it change my view of The Christ? Nope.

Although, I guess at this point my views are not typical. I think understanding the "historical Jesus" is awesome. It's very intriguing. Jesus was a man, so I am sure he did many "normal" things that people prefer not to think of or even mention in fear of blasphemy...like going to the bathroom. lol

It's amazing how many circles can't fathom the human side of Jesus. They somehow think that takes away from the truth.

This is an interesting topic. I have never heard of the above order. I will look into it more.

LOL @underlined part! Yeah, same thing with what they say about Jesus really being married to Mary Magadelene and folks believe that is blasphemous, but according to Jewish law, men were married at a certain age, etc., etc. I can't remember where I read that.

If he was married, wasn't married, was part of a secret society or not, it doesn't change the fact of John 3:16 in my opinion.

[Julie Art]

May 20, 2010 19:26:22 GMT -5 Oren Ishii said:

@julie:

Their purpose was to live a devout life. They were a brotherhood of spiritual believers who followed the same faith & edicts.

Here's a little more about how they lived:

They were outstanding in their uniformly holy and unselfish life; their abstinence from visiting the Temple or taking part in bloody sacrifices;
Their unbounded love of virtue and their contempt for earthly fame, riches, pleasures;
Their industry and temperance, the latter including a vegetarian diet and abstinece from intoxicants;
Their modesty and simplicity of life;
Their contentment of mind and cheerfulness of temper;
Their love of order and truth and their abhorence of falsehood;
Their benevolence and philanthropy;
Their following peace with all men.

Known to all was their hatred of slavey and war, their aversion to oaths, wearing of wool, or using of oil, their tender regard for children and for the aged, their attendance of the sick, and readiness to relieve the distressed, their investigation of plants and minerals for healing, and their miraculous cures.

- From RAYS FROM THE ROSE CROSS, The Rosicrucian Fellowship Magazine, December 1956.

It's believed that Jesus was initiated & taught by them in the early years before he began his ministry.

Their lifestyle (or, many aspects of it) has been adopted as an example of the archetypal Christian lifestyle. They did, however, have roots in a more ancient religion call Zoroastrianism. It is believed that they incorporated many of the mystical/ritual practices of it & Kabbalah into their later spiritual practices.

Underlined, I was thinking that, lol! Some of that is in the Bible. I don't know about the parts of not visitng temples and such since it does say in the Bible several times that Jesus did do this. There are other things that are contradictory to what the Bible states. My stance is still the same. He came, he died so we would have a chance at ever lasting life, he arose, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, and will come again and fulfill all that is listed in Revelations.

[Julie Art]

ROTFL @ the poster doing EXACTLY what I said they would do!


Here is another topic for you Muse. What is the basis of Catholicsm (sp?)? I know that they believe in Jesus Christ, but explain to me please the reference to saints and the praying to the Holy Mother, etc. I don't understand all thatt. And about confessions, etc.

[Oren Ishii]

@ Julie:

I'm at work, but here is the basic statement of our faith. It is called The Nicene Creed, and was developed at the Council of Nicea from previous versions.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

I'll try to go into more detail later tonight.

[nsync]

I am so glad you mentioned that. I think folks believe Jesus being married would make him TOO mortal. That would mean he was spiritually connected to a mortal. The thought of God being physically involved is considered blasphemy...but why?

I think Abrahamic religions are one of the few religions who do not attribute sexuality to a deity.

Anyhow, that's another post or discussion.

I think the REAL problem folks have is the follow up question to Jesus being married---did he father children?

The Bible speaks of him having no generations beyond. I need to find that.

But even if it didn't, honestly I think it's extremely far fetched. God to many, extremely powerful figure to others...would history not have preserved the fact that He had children?

It makes no sense whatsoever not even from a non-Christian point a view.

Where were these children? Why weren't they apart of the founding of His church? I am so not buying it even after research.

But I did find this website...rather....disturbing, but intriguing enough to sift through. lol


www.thetruejesus.org/

May 20, 2010 19:37:32 GMT -5 Julie Art said:

May 20, 2010 19:18:50 GMT -5 @nsync said:

So now..........Jesus was not a Jew by practice. ..........................................................
...................................................................
.......................................................................?

Mary was Jewish. Traditional Jewish law states if the mother is Jewish the child is Jewish. The culture and the religion are intertwined. Many time Jesus referred back to Jewish scriptures and prophets. He participated in their feats, festival and holidays. He spoke of the Father(referencing the Jewish God) At best you can state Jesus was a reformed Jew or he was pressing for reformation of Jewish law (based heavily on religion).

However, Jesus was a Jew culturally and religiously.

To the original question would it change my view of The Christ? Nope.

Although, I guess at this point my views are not typical. I think understanding the "historical Jesus" is awesome. It's very intriguing. Jesus was a man, so I am sure he did many "normal" things that people prefer not to think of or even mention in fear of blasphemy...like going to the bathroom. lol

It's amazing how many circles can't fathom the human side of Jesus. They somehow think that takes away from the truth.

This is an interesting topic. I have never heard of the above order. I will look into it more.

LOL @underlined part! Yeah, same thing with what they say about Jesus really being married to Mary Magadelene and folks believe that is blasphemous, but according to Jewish law, men were married at a certain age, etc., etc. I can't remember where I read that.

If he was married, wasn't married, was part of a secret society or not, it doesn't change the fact of John 3:16 in my opinion.

[nsync]

Muse, what did you convert from? Why did you choose Catholicism?

[Oren Ishii]

@outtie: I was born Baptist. Later, I spent a lot of time in the Pentecostal church with relatives. I know there's a big leap from there to Catholicism (most people think so).

I have a long answer for why I converted, but suffice it to say, the Catholic Church spoke to me more. I even considered a vocation at one point (joining an order & becoming a nun)!

I appreciate our history, and the fact that my church was created in the tradition of discipleship [our first Pope, (Simon) Peter, was a disciple].

Yes, it has its faults & is a bit outdated in many ways, but the belief in the Trinity & sacred nature of the Eucharist (Communion), the importance of prayer, and the value of the message of the Bible over emotion are all parts of the faith that I value.

[nsync]

I don't see it as a stretch at all. I actually considered Catholicism on my journey but there were too many things I did not agree with. I think I have found a happy medium with Lutheranism. I prefer a MC non-denom church with a Lutheran flair. But we can't have it all or can we....

Thanks for sharing.

[Vudu_Prince]

May 20, 2010 19:18:50 GMT -5 @nsync said:

So now..........Jesus was not a Jew by practice. ..........................................................
...................................................................
.......................................................................?

Mary was Jewish. Traditional Jewish law states if the mother is Jewish the child is Jewish. The culture and the religion are intertwined. Many time Jesus referred back to Jewish scriptures and prophets. He participated in their feats, festival and holidays. He spoke of the Father(referencing the Jewish God) At best you can state Jesus was a reformed Jew or he was pressing for reformation of Jewish law (based heavily on religion).

However, Jesus was a Jew culturally and religiously.

To the original question would it change my view of The Christ? Nope.

Although, I guess at this point my views are not typical. I think understanding the "historical Jesus" is awesome. It's very intriguing. Jesus was a man, so I am sure he did many "normal" things that people prefer not to think of or even mention in fear of blasphemy...like going to the bathroom. lol

It's amazing how many circles can't fathom the human side of Jesus. They somehow think that takes away from the truth.

This is an interesting topic. I have never heard of the above order. I will look into it more.

Mentioning Mary is of no consequence when in the bible Jesus lineage both times is traced back through Joseph not his mother THOUGH by Jewish custom lineage is passed through the mother. Now why is that? Legitimacy that's why. So thats strike one right there.

Jesus was not Jewish by practice as if he were then it he wouldn't need to teach. If that's the case then is Ishmael Jewish too? How about Muhammad? The same god head figure in the Quran is the same that's in the old testament. The writers of both religions used Judaism for legitimacy. If it were fine then it wouldn't be a new testament nor a fulfillment and "New Law" if the old law was followed. Jesus stated himself that those who claimed to be Jews were liars and were not the true and living embodiment of the "Father". He also stated the only way to salvation and becoming one with the father was through him. Now I'd beg you to show us ANYWHERE in Judaism where we can find that.. Basically the entire scope of Christianity is that those who called themselves Jews were not. They were not the true and living and this included all practices and customs. If the practices and customs were okay then again Jesus would have followed them but he didn't. He instead slams the entire religion on its ass and offers a new way. Jesus basically said fuck circumcision, the sabbath, and the passover instead replacing them all with himself. That's Judaism? Hey if you like I love it lol

Ends hijack

[Julie Art]

OK, so question for you Outtie, where does Luthern differ from the other denominations?

[Oren Ishii]

*side eye @ Outtie*

The "Jesus & Mary DNA test?"

For real, Outtie? Come on, now. *shakes head*

[nsync]

LOL But I didnt start the site. I am just showing yall what is out there...

and it's scary yet intruiging ROFL!

Actually I think the site is a poor attempt at dry humor...towards those who claim there is some lineage.

May 20, 2010 21:24:32 GMT -5 Oren Ishii said:

*side eye @ Outtie*

The "Jesus & Mary DNA test?"

For real, Outtie? Come on, now. *shakes head*

[nsync]

There are several little differences but I think it boils down to salvation and the focus of church figures. Lutherans believe one is saved by grace and faith--Catholic by deeds and works.
Also the church and church leaders=Pope et al have authority over the religion.
In Luthernism The Lord does and only the Lord. There is no major human church figure that has the final word on all the religion resides on.

There are other things like purgatory, saints, penances...

etc.

There are many similarity that I thought were important and necessary though like retaining sacraments.

Many Roman Catholics will argue (like other denoms too) that what is stereotyped is not true to doctrine.

This I would agree, however practice is so important in the Roman Catholic church, that regardless what the doctorine is if the Pope venerates Mary so should everyone else (that's just an example).

May 20, 2010 21:07:02 GMT -5 Julie Art said:

OK, so question for you Outtie, where does Luthern differ from the other denominations?