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Post by nsync on May 27, 2010 14:13:58 GMT -5
Okay. I see. I know they are criticized about how they view scripture.
Thanks.
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Post by frozenmenace on May 27, 2010 14:52:38 GMT -5
Okay. I see. I know they are criticized about how they view scripture. Thanks. I try not to get too caught up in how they view scripture because I know I'm not a Lutheran. I do know, however, that their worship services have to be the most BORING I have ever attended! These are caucasian Lutherans though. I have not had the opportunity to worship in a Black Lutheran church. One of the Professors at my school is a Black Lutheran who just moved here about 2 years ago. He said that he and his wife have not been able to find a Black Luthern Church in this area yet. What have you heard about how they view scripture? |
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Post by nsync on May 27, 2010 14:56:56 GMT -5
ECLA does not see all scripture as direct word of God. They acknowledge historical relevance, possible errors in translation etc.
Missouri Synod believe it's directly inspired.
Yeah the Pastor who married us considered herself Luthacostal. lol So her services seemed more fire baptized that the usual. Their general services can get dry though. You have to find the right church.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 27, 2010 15:04:29 GMT -5
Using the Quran as the basis of defending an argument you have made to a Christian is a waste of time. As I am not a Muslim, the words of the Quran mean nothing to me. The same would hold true for someone who is not a Christian. I would not expect you to agree with my beliefs or interpretations because it's already quite evident that you don't or else you would be a Christian. However, many Muslims do claim that the Quran was given to the world through Muhammad because the other religions were corrupt, and they feel that Islam is the truth. Interesting so what say you of Jews who have the same sentiments concerning Jesus? To them the words of Jesus are blasphemous especially considering his claims that the ONLY way to salvation is through him. Again what say you? The Islam view is a PERFECT correlation. I hear ya but to say circumcision means nothing is HUGE homie. Lets go to Corinthians shall we? Here is Paul speaking 1 Cor 9:18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; Lets go to John as well when Jesus clears the temple John 2:12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days. 13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" 17His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me." 18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. 23Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.[c] 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
So we can gather that these men saw Jews as mere pagans. Defiling the very nature on how to connect with "God" . Thus all customs and laws were null n void. This is the same thing that Islam further does. So to champion the connection with Judaism for Christianity but then shun Islam which does the exact same thing is puzzling.... |
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Post by frozenmenace on May 27, 2010 16:02:07 GMT -5
Using the Quran as the basis of defending an argument you have made to a Christian is a waste of time. As I am not a Muslim, the words of the Quran mean nothing to me. The same would hold true for someone who is not a Christian. I would not expect you to agree with my beliefs or interpretations because it's already quite evident that you don't or else you would be a Christian. However, many Muslims do claim that the Quran was given to the world through Muhammad because the other religions were corrupt, and they feel that Islam is the truth. Interesting so what say you of Jews who have the same sentiments concerning Jesus? To them the words of Jesus are blasphemous especially considering his claims that the ONLY way to salvation is through him. Again what say you? The Islam view is a PERFECT correlation. I hear ya but to say circumcision means nothing is HUGE homie. Lets go to Corinthians shall we? Here is Paul speaking 1 Cor 9:18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; Lets go to John as well when Jesus clears the temple John 2:12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days. 13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" 17His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me." 18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. 23Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.[c] 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
So we can gather that these men saw Jews as mere pagans. Defiling the very nature on how to connect with "God" . Thus all customs and laws were null n void. This is the same thing that Islam further does. So to champion the connection with Judaism for Christianity but then shun Islam which does the exact same thing is puzzling.... I don't recall "shunning" Islam. What I stated was that as I am not a Muslim, the Quran does not hold much value for me. As for the scripture you have quoted from John, scholars have found that the author of that Gospel went out of his way to depict a deep divide between Jesus and his followers, and everyone who did not follow Jesus. He used the term "JEW/JEWS" often as if Jesus and his followers were not Jews, however, they were. The Gospel According to John was not completed until approximately 90 - 100 AD, and more than likely the author was not an eyewitness to the stories he is telling. As Christianity had become a separate religion by that time, he wrote his Gospel from an "us vs them" standpoint. I am not "championing" the connection between Judaism and Christianity. I am simply stating the facts. If you are a Muslim and you have been taught that Islam derived from Judaism, then say that. It is possible for two religions to derive from the same source. So I'm not really understanding your point. As for the Jews who feel that the words of Jesus are/were blasphemous, that is their view. They do not believe that he was the Messiah, so I do not expect for them to view Jesus in the same way that we Christians do. Again, it's obvious that they don't agree or else they would be Christians. Because the Muslim view correlates perfectly with the Jewish view means nothing. I have already stated that Jesus came to repair a corrupt religion. Therefore, if the Islamic view is a perfect correlation to the view of Judaism, then it could be stated that Islam is also corrupt. Corruption often gives birth to corruption. So, as it seems that you have often tried to present Christianity as a corrupt religion, the same could be done in regard to Islam. Regarding your reference to scriptures in 1 Corinthians, it must be remembered that Paul was not one of the original apostles of Jesus. He wrote his letter to the church in Corinth in approximately 54AD, after the crucifixion of Christ. It also must be remembered that during the ministry of Jesus, he ministered to Jews AND Gentiles. So not ALL of those who came to follow him began as Jews. The church at Corinth was made up mainly of Gentile converts. Consequently, Paul's letter to them was of the genre of deliberative rhetoric. He was deliberately attempting to persuade their way of thinking. To present himself as a Jew to a group of Gentiles would have been detrimental to his plan. Just like if he wanted to minister to the Jews, then he would have to get on their level, gain their trust, and then minister to them. Paul wrote this letter to the church at Corinth (a church that he formed in 50 AD) because it had been reported to him that problems had arisen between the believers at Corinth, who were Christians, not Jews. He was attempting to instruct them on how to be a Christian community. At any rate, the points that you have made do not negate the fact that Jesus and his original disciples were indeed Jews. The Gospel was not only spread to Jews, but it was also spread to Gentiles. |
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Post by frozenmenace on May 27, 2010 16:08:51 GMT -5
ECLA does not see all scripture as direct word of God. They acknowledge historical relevance, possible errors in translation etc. Maybe that's why I haven't paid much attention to their views on scripture because I actually agree with them. I don't believe that every single word in the Bible came from God. I also acknowledge historical relevance, and after having taken Biblical Greek for two semesters (I have a copy of the Greek New Testament), I know that things were altered during translation. What we read in our English translations is not exactly what the original Greek states. As the New Testament was originally written in Greek, it helps a lot to be able to actually see what the original Greek says. |
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Post by LovelyInspiration on May 27, 2010 17:59:09 GMT -5
Okay, you guys type too long! LOL Here's the thing: The question isn't about Jesus being IN the Order, but some of the practices OF the Order. They include magick & the following of mystical teachings from more ancient religions with pagan leanings (  conversation for another day). Does that affect your view of the Savior? If so, how? Does it cause you to re-frame some of his works on Earth? Water into wine? Walking on the water, etc? The Order is considered secretive, since we're being technical about semantics. |
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Post by frozenmenace on May 27, 2010 21:22:26 GMT -5
Okay, you guys type too long! LOL Here's the thing: The question isn't about Jesus being IN the Order, but some of the practices OF the Order. They include magick & the following of mystical teachings from more ancient religions with pagan leanings ( conversation for another day). Does that affect your view of the Savior? If so, how? Does it cause you to re-frame some of his works on Earth? Water into wine? Walking on the water, etc? The Order is considered secretive, since we're being technical about semantics. No it doesn't make any difference ( :  . Next question... |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 27, 2010 22:01:37 GMT -5
Are you rolling your eyes @ me Frozen?  And I liked you, too. |
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Post by Julie Art on May 27, 2010 22:42:23 GMT -5
Yes like I stated, it still doesn't change John3:16
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Post by frozenmenace on May 28, 2010 0:11:17 GMT -5
Are you rolling your eyes @ me Frozen? And I liked you, too. Are you also LovelyInspiration?? I used the eye roll smiley because she did. lol |
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Post by denounced on May 28, 2010 18:49:40 GMT -5
*NOTE: This thread is based on the premise that Jesus was, in fact, a literal, historic figure - not an allegory. Don't come in here trying to debate His existence. That's not the point of the thread. I'm looking at YOU, VP. *side eye followed by ((HUG))*Okay, you guys know I'm a converted Catholic. In my church, it was pretty much common knowledge that Jesus belonged to a "secret society" called the Holy Order of the Essenes. In a lot of ways, they were similar to modern monks, BUT not in every way. Supposedly, they also created a mystery school & used some practical magick (there's a reason for spelling it this way) & ritual. If this is true, how do you feel about Jesus's participation? Would it change your views of The Christ at all? Yes, because it denies the Matthew 28 Great Commission. If they did not worship Jesus, believe in Hos Second Coming, or His Bodily Resurrection, then Christianity is in vain. |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 28, 2010 19:07:31 GMT -5
Yeah, that's me. LOL I wasn't rolling my eyes at you; I was rollin g them at poeple & their feelings toward "paganism." SMH You're funny. I'm  @ you though; I been asking bout you forever; ain't heard from you in YEARS.  Are you rolling your eyes @ me Frozen? And I liked you, too. Are you also LovelyInspiration?? I used the eye roll smiley because she did. lol |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 30, 2010 21:30:50 GMT -5
I don't recall "shunning" Islam. What I stated was that as I am not a Muslim, the Quran does not hold much value for me. As for the scripture you have quoted from John, scholars have found that the author of that Gospel went out of his way to depict a deep divide between Jesus and his followers, and everyone who did not follow Jesus. He used the term "JEW/JEWS" often as if Jesus and his followers were not Jews, however, they were. The Gospel According to John was not completed until approximately 90 - 100 AD, and more than likely the author was not an eyewitness to the stories he is telling. Lets top here again. Out of all the Gospels John is the only one that is viewed to be of an eye witness account. Mark nor Luke were eye witnesses as they were followers of Peter and Paul. The same could be said for Matthew not being written by an eye witness. The historians have stated Mark was written first. cmon now. Furthermore Islam is the perfect correlation again because it does the exact same thing to Christianity and Judaism which Christianity does to Judaism. The point is simple. First I'm not a Muslim but secondly the same thing you say about Islam, Jews say about Christians. Furthermore your claims of Jesus being Jewish we must first understand what makes a person Jewish. I stated from the beginning that Jesus was a jew by "race" but not by practice. I brought up the Islamic angle for a reason. If a person believes Jesus was a prophet. Believes he spoke the truth BUT makes changes and feels he wasn't the last messenger are they true Christians? Certainly not. Thus the inclusion of Islam into this conversation. They believe in ASA but feel he was but a prophet and Muhammad was the last messenger. So using that logic you can't say a man who believed in the One God of the old testament and the prophets who came before him was Jewish WHEN he changes everything that they did. That doesn't make any sense at all. How was it corrupt? Circumcision, Passover, Yom Kippur, Shauvot all that stuff that was sanctioned by "Jehovah" Jesus replaced them all with himself. No matter how you try to deal the cards THAT aint Judaism homie lol. Here is something else to ponder... IF Jesus was already a Jew then two things must be true concerning his Baptism by John. If one is already a Jew you are only baptized for either repentance for a Sin or because you have been in contact with a corpse. So which is it? All the aforementioned points can be also levied against the entire new testament account. Every "Gospel" sits on shaky ground. Nobody knows who wrote what or when they were written where or by whom. So you writing that means nothing <<<Thinks if Jesus did exist whateva little he knew he learned in Kemet just a Moses did before him. Asking how does a person feel about Jesus being apart of the Essene's and practicing magic is arbitrary. I mean if you read the "story" as written is obvious walking on water, casting out demons. feeding a thousand with 2 fish and a loaf of bread, turning water into wine, raising the dead... like the question is rhetorical on many levels. |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 13:00:21 GMT -5
VP, you're gonna make me blow my top. You're missing the point - I'm not asking you. You don't believe in Jesus. That's cool; I'm not tripping. I am asking people who frame Jesus's existence & the works he performed in the realm of Deity - those who see Jesus as above the rest of humanity - God in human form, able to do much greater works than we. I am asking THOSE people if they would feel differently about Christ if it was shown that what He did was simply... magick, not something that makes him any more divine than us. I'm thinking you already know this, but you just feel like ruffling feathers. Dayum Sagittarians. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 31, 2010 17:06:26 GMT -5
VP, you're gonna make me blow my top. You're missing the point - I'm not asking you. You don't believe in Jesus. That's cool; I'm not tripping. I am asking people who frame Jesus's existence & the works he performed in the realm of Deity - those who see Jesus as above the rest of humanity - God in human form, able to do much greater works than we. I am asking THOSE people if they would feel differently about Christ if it was shown that what He did was simply... magick, not something that makes him any more divine than us. I'm thinking you already know this, but you just feel like ruffling feathers. Dayum Sagittarians. Okayyy then your thread misses the point. How you gonna ask as you stated "Supposedly, they also created a mystery school & used some practical magick (there's a reason for spelling it this way) & ritual. If this is true, how do you feel about Jesus's participation? Would it change your views of The Christ at all?" when the character in question raises people from the dead, turns water into wine, tells the future, heals the sick, blind and deaf, feeds a thousand with 2 fish and a loaf of bread, walks on water, practices self resuscitation after 3 days and EVENNN found time to get a few hoes off the stroll. What relevance is it to ask those how they feel about Jesus practicing "magick" when his divinity is based on it  I could have ended your thread 2 pages ago. lol You need to thank me |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 18:01:24 GMT -5
You're still missing the point, VP.
Christians do not see Jesus's miracles as magick - they see it as validation of His divinity.
If you take away the "cloak" of Divinity & suggest that His power was magick - a power available to ALL of us- I want to know if that calls His Divinity into question in the mind of any Christians. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 31, 2010 18:14:29 GMT -5
You're still missing the point, VP.
Christians do not see Jesus's miracles as magick - they see it as validation of His divinity.
If you take away the "cloak" of Divinity & suggest that His power was magick - a power available to ALL of us- I want to know if that calls His Divinity into question in the mind of any Christians. Thats the thing to deal in magick you must have a connection with the unseen. I'm still not getting your point. You acting like anybody can just use magick. WHat is Magick? |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 18:32:54 GMT -5
Magick (with the K) is the practice of using one's focus & intention to create change. It harnesses the energies of the universe & the internal power of the practitioner, to bring about the outcome that the practitioner desires.
This type of magick (as opposed to magic) is not illusion - it is practical & applicable with evidenced outcomes. It can be as simple as breathing exercises that lead to use of the astral plane to influence an outcome, to ritual or tantric practice.
I'm not saying that you don't need a connection to the divine to practice magick. I am suggesting that any person who allows themselves to develop that kind of focus can practice magick, even to the level that Jesus did.
If, according to Jesus, "these things & greater shall ye do," why can't everyone who chooses to practice magick?
If His miracles were evidence of the Savior's divinity, yet you strip away the idea of "divine supernatural power," is Jesus still as divine as before...
...or just a great prophet who performed "signs & wonders" to convince the people?
Better yet, if we can do as He did (and greater, according to His own words), are we any less divine?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 31, 2010 18:45:49 GMT -5
Magick (with the K) is the practice of using one's focus & intention to create change. It harnesses the energies of the universe & the internal power of the practitioner, to bring about the outcome that the practitioner desires. This type of magick (as opposed to magic) is not illusion - it is practical & applicable with evidenced outcomes. It can be as simple as breathing exercises that lead to use of the astral plane to influence an outcome, to ritual or tantric practice. I'm not saying that you don't need a connection to the divine to practice magick. I am suggesting that any person who allows themselves to develop that kind of focus can practice magick, even to the level that Jesus did. If, according to Jesus, "these things & greater shall ye do," why can't everyone who chooses to practice magick? If His miracles were evidence of the Savior's divinity, yet you strip away the idea of "divine supernatural power," is Jesus still as divine as before... ...or just a great prophet who performed "signs & wonders" to convince the people? Better yet, if we can do as He did (and greater, according to His own words), are we any less divine? What the?? lol Magik is Magic there is no difference. At the rate you going sistah you gonna be a wiccan before summer's end. Geez lol There is NO proof Jesus was apart of the Essenes nor is it concrete proof they even existed. |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 18:54:07 GMT -5
I'm not becoming Wiccan...azz! LOL
I do know some, however, & Magick & magic are considered 2 different practices, dude.
Whether or not you believe He existed has no bearing on the question, V, and you know that. *raised eyebrow*
The question was posed "to them that believe." If you approach the question from that framework, the query is relevant.
So, you don't believe that magick was used by our ancestors and/or is being used successfully today?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 31, 2010 19:00:41 GMT -5
I'm not becoming Wiccan...azz! LOL I do know some, however, & Magick & magic are considered 2 different practices, dude. Whether or not you believe He existed has no bearing on the question, V, and you know that. *raised eyebrow* The question was posed "to them that believe." If you approach the question from that framework, the query is relevant. So, you don't believe that magick was used by our ancestors and/or is being used successfully today? Who told you Magick is something used for Change? That sounds like a bad Obama speech. Come have a sit over here by me and drink some water. and STAY away from them damn Wiccans. They don't know shit. |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 19:23:02 GMT -5
Your diminuitive response still doesn't answer the question, babe.
"So, you don't believe that magick was used by our ancestors and/or is being used successfully today? "
& lemme get this straight...magick (in your estimation) is NOT used to create change?
If someone uses magick to heal, is that not a change from the state of dis-ease? If tantra is used to elevate the sexual experience & raise kundalini, is that not a change from the base, animal nature from which most people experience sex?
If so, then how is it that you say that magick is not used to create change?
Expound please.
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Post by frozenmenace on Jun 1, 2010 1:02:59 GMT -5
Isis, it is almost senseless to go back and forth with someone who has made it clear that they don't believe what you believe, and they are trying to do everything they can to discredit what you believe. LOL! If it was that easy to make someone get the point of your beliefs, then there wouldn't be so many religions and denominations.
In chapter 6 of Mark's Gospel, Jesus calls the twelve and begins to send them out two by two. He tells them, "If any place will not welcome you and they refuse to hear you, as you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11). I have learned that a person has to be willing to HEAR what you are saying rather than waiting for their chance to try to discredit what you are saying. Vudu's goal is to discredit so that what he proclaims will make sense. In such instances, "shake off the dust that is on your feet" and speak to those who are actually LISTENING and not just waiting to try to discredit you.
Please forgive me for hijacking your thread, however, I feel the need to address a few things that have been mentioned in this thread:
WHY WAS JESUS BAPTIZED?
Answer: When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John asked the same question. Why should he, a sinful man, baptize the Messiah? He tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized saying “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). The baptisms that John performed symbolized repentance, and he saw this as inappropriate for the One he knew to be the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. His was a perfect righteousness in that He fulfilled all the requirements of the Law which we, for whose sin He would exchange His righteousness, are not capable of fulfilling. He is our perfect substitute.
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Post by frozenmenace on Jun 1, 2010 1:24:43 GMT -5
Jesus lived as a Jew
Although He was born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1, Micah 5:2), Yeshua was raised in Nazareth (Luke 2:39-40). Both were Jewish towns at the time, according to archeologists and historians. Bethlehem is just south of Jerusalem while Nazareth is north, in the Galilee section. Both of Yeshua's parents were from Nazareth (Luke 1:26-27, 2:4, 39) and they returned there with the Child when they had done everything according to the Law of the Lord that His birth required (Luke 2:39). His aunt and uncle were also Torah observant Jews (Luke 1:6) so we can see that probably the whole family took their faith very seriously.
Yeshua's parents made the 140 mile (225 m.) round trip to Jerusalem every Passover (Luke 2:41) in observance of Deut. 16:16. It was at the age of twelve that Yeshua stayed behind an extra three days to learn from the Temple teachers (Luke 2:46). Although He already understood the Torah well (Luke 2:47), His attitude of listening and questioning indicates love of the Hebrew scripture and respect for the teachers. He also respected the Temple itself, calling it His Father's (Luke 2:49). Near the end of His life, He praised a widow for giving all she had to the Temple (Luke 21:1-4).
In adult life, His disciples were Jews (John 1:47, Matt. 20:25-26) and they called Him 'Rabbi' (John 4:31). Mary called Him 'Rabboni' (John 20:16). They sought Him because they believed the Torah and the Prophets (John 1:45).
A Pharisee who had not yet come to faith in Him also addressed Yeshua as 'Rabbi' (John 3:2), as did a crowd of people (John 6:25). A Samaritan woman easily recognized He was a Jew (John 4:9).
Yeshua's disciples spoke Hebrew (John 1:38, 41) and so did He, as well as Chaldean, a closely-related language brought back by the Jews from their captivity in Babylon (Matt. 27:46). In the sermon on the mount He affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16) and His teaching was respected by the other congregants (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple (Luke 21:37) and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30).
Although He differed with some of His contemporaries on how to keep the commandments (Matt. 12:12), He did not disagree on whether to keep them, saying such things as,"if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments," (Matt. 19:17). When He healed someone of leprosy, he instructed him to,"show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded..." (Matt. 8:4, Lev. 14).
Yeshua not only taught others how to live a Jewish life, He lived it Himself. The outward signs of this were such things as wearing tzitzit (tassles) on His clothing (Luke 8:43, Matt. 14:36, Strong's # 2899) to serve as a reminder of the commandments (Num. 15:37-39). He observed Passover (John 2:13) and went up to Jerusalem (Deut. 16:16). He observed Succot (John 7:2, 10) and went up to Jerusalem (John 7:14). He also observed Hanukah (John 10:22) and probably Rosh haShanah (John 5:1), going up to Jerusalem on both those occasions as well, even though it isn't commanded in the Torah.
The inward sign of His Judaism was a circumcised heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6).
When faced with temptation, Yeshua answered from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 4:2-10, Deut. 8:3, 6:16, 6:13). When teaching, He taught from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 22:42-45). When admonishing, He quoted from the Hebrew Scripture (Mk. 7:6-13).
Yeshua self-identified as a Jew (John 4:22) and as King of the Jews (Mk. 15:2). From His birth to His last Passover seder (Luke 22:14-15), Jesus lived as a Jew.
Jesus died a Jew
When Yeshua was taken prisoner by a Roman captain, his cohort, and some Jewish officials (John 18:12), He was delivered into the custody of the Jewish priests, elders, and scribes (Mk. 14:53). The Roman soldiers would not have placed Him under Jewish jurisdiction if He were not Jewish.
Later, Yeshua was brought before the Sanhedrin, the Jewish council (Luke 22:66). He was charged with an offense against Jewish Law (Matt. 26:65-66, Lev. 24:13-14, John 19:7). Pilate, head of the Roman occupation, also recognized Jewish jurisdiction over Yeshua (John 18:31). This was because Yeshua was a Jew (John 18:35).
He unequivocally identified Himself as the Messiah (Mk. 14:61-62) and as we have seen above, the Messiah must be Jewish. He said He is the King of the Jews (Matt. 27:11) and, as we have also seen above, the King of the Jews must Himself be Jewish. The Jewish crowd also called Him 'King of the Jews' (Mk. 15:12). He was mocked, spat on and beaten by the Roman soldiers as 'King of the Jews' (Mk. 15:16-20) and when they crucified Him, their charge was 'King of the Jews' (Matt. 27:37).
The place of judgment had a Hebrew place-name (John 19:13) and the place of crucifixion had a Hebrew place-name (Mk. 15:22).
Joseph of Arimethea, who took custody of Yeshua's body, was Jewish (Luke 23:50-52) and he laid the body in his own new tomb (Matt. 27:59-60). Therefore, Yeshua was buried in a Jewish cemetery. He was also buried according to Jewish custom of the time (John 19:40). Without doubt, Jesus died a Jew.
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Post by frozenmenace on Jun 1, 2010 1:31:52 GMT -5
Was Mary Descended from David?
Luke 3:23
V23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
The "as was supposed" in this verse means as reckoned by law. In Matthew 1:16 we are told that Joseph was begotten by Jacob (not the same Jacob that had his name changed to Israel by God) and was his natural son. Joseph could be the legal son of Heli, therefore, only by marriage with Heli's daughter Mary and be reckoned so according to law. Joseph was Heli's son in law because he was the husband of Heli's daughter Mary.
So the genealogy given in Luke 3:23-38 is that of Mary, the mother of the Messiah. Lets skip down to verse 33.
Luke 3:33-34
V33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
V34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Juda 2455 Ioudas (ee-oo-das'); of Hebrew origin [3063]; Judas (i.e. Jehudah), the name of ten Israelites; also of the posterity of one of them and its region. KJV - Juda (-h, -s); Jude.
The name Juda from verse 33 is of Hebrew origin and is spelled as Judah in the Old Testament. He was a son of Jacob and the first Jewish person in the Bible. God changed Jacob's name to Israel in Genesis 32:28 The Bible tells us that our Lord was a Jew because His mother Mary did have some Jewish blood in her as she was a descendant of Judah.
Mary's cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:36) was of the daughters of Aaron (Luke 1:5) which makes Elisabeth a descendant of Levi. This also means that Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ was a descendant of Levi on her mothers side. The Levitical priesthood are descendants of Levi. Jesus Christ was both a Jew and a Levite.
Also for consideration:
Luke’s text says that Jesus was “a son, as was supposed, of Joseph, of Eli”. The qualification has traditionally been understood as acknowledgment of the virgin birth, but some instead see a parenthetical expression: “a son (as was supposed of Joseph) of Eli.” In this interpretation, Jesus is called a son of Eli because Eli was his maternal grandfather, his nearest male ancestor. A variation on this idea is to explain “Joseph son of Eli” as meaning a son-in-law, perhaps even an adoptive heir to Eli through his only daughter Mary. An example of the Old Testament use of such an expression is Jair, who is called “Jair son of Manasseh” but was actually son of Manasseh’s granddaughter. In any case, the argument goes, it is natural for the evangelist, acknowledging the unique case of the virgin birth, to give the maternal genealogy of Jesus, while expressing it a bit awkwardly in the traditional patrilinear style.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jun 1, 2010 5:11:00 GMT -5
Isis, it is almost senseless to go back and forth with someone who has made it clear that they don't believe what you believe, and they are trying to do everything they can to discredit what you believe. LOL! If it was that easy to make someone get the point of your beliefs, then there wouldn't be so many religions and denominations. In chapter 6 of Mark's Gospel, Jesus calls the twelve and begins to send them out two by two. He tells them, "If any place will not welcome you and they refuse to hear you, as you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11). I have learned that a person has to be willing to HEAR what you are saying rather than waiting for their chance to try to discredit what you are saying. Vudu's goal is to discredit so that what he proclaims will make sense. In such instances, "shake off the dust that is on your feet" and speak to those who are actually LISTENING and not just waiting to try to discredit you. Please forgive me for hijacking your thread, however, I feel the need to address a few things that have been mentioned in this thread: WHY WAS JESUS BAPTIZED?Answer: When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John asked the same question. Why should he, a sinful man, baptize the Messiah? He tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized saying “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). The baptisms that John performed symbolized repentance, and he saw this as inappropriate for the One he knew to be the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. His was a perfect righteousness in that He fulfilled all the requirements of the Law which we, for whose sin He would exchange His righteousness, are not capable of fulfilling. He is our perfect substitute. Huh? So now John was a sinful man? ?? You think that chit you wrote up there is gonna fly with me? Like you were thinking to yourself "Yeah lemme write this because this is the truth here " WRONG. Show where John was a sinful man? You just lied on the damn text dude. That's whats hot in the street in seminary school now? GTFHOWTBS Groomed to lie.... Furthermore If Jesus was already the messiah in vivo then this act wouldn't have been needed at all. If he was already one with and the same as the creator again this wouldn't be created. You can save quoting verses to me of all people... Stick to ya commentary instead. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.John per the story made that statement out of humility as he knew who Jesus was not out of being a sinner. YOU should know that. damn Shame. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jun 1, 2010 8:07:20 GMT -5
Jesus lived as a Jew Although He was born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1, Micah 5:2), Yeshua was raised in Nazareth (Luke 2:39-40). Both were Jewish towns at the time, according to archeologists and historians. Bethlehem is just south of Jerusalem while Nazareth is north, in the Galilee section. Both of Yeshua's parents were from Nazareth (Luke 1:26-27, 2:4, 39) and they returned there with the Child when they had done everything according to the Law of the Lord that His birth required (Luke 2:39). His aunt and uncle were also Torah observant Jews (Luke 1:6) so we can see that probably the whole family took their faith very seriously. Yeshua's parents made the 140 mile (225 m.) round trip to Jerusalem every Passover (Luke 2:41) in observance of Deut. 16:16. It was at the age of twelve that Yeshua stayed behind an extra three days to learn from the Temple teachers (Luke 2:46). Although He already understood the Torah well (Luke 2:47), His attitude of listening and questioning indicates love of the Hebrew scripture and respect for the teachers. He also respected the Temple itself, calling it His Father's (Luke 2:49). Near the end of His life, He praised a widow for giving all she had to the Temple (Luke 21:1-4). In adult life, His disciples were Jews (John 1:47, Matt. 20:25-26) and they called Him 'Rabbi' (John 4:31). Mary called Him 'Rabboni' (John 20:16). They sought Him because they believed the Torah and the Prophets (John 1:45). A Pharisee who had not yet come to faith in Him also addressed Yeshua as 'Rabbi' (John 3:2), as did a crowd of people (John 6:25). A Samaritan woman easily recognized He was a Jew (John 4:9). Yeshua's disciples spoke Hebrew (John 1:38, 41) and so did He, as well as Chaldean, a closely-related language brought back by the Jews from their captivity in Babylon (Matt. 27:46). In the sermon on the mount He affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16) and His teaching was respected by the other congregants (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple (Luke 21:37) and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30). Although He differed with some of His contemporaries on how to keep the commandments (Matt. 12:12), He did not disagree on whether to keep them, saying such things as,"if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments," (Matt. 19:17). When He healed someone of leprosy, he instructed him to,"show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded..." (Matt. 8:4, Lev. 14).
Yeshua not only taught others how to live a Jewish life, He lived it Himself. The outward signs of this were such things as wearing tzitzit (tassles) on His clothing (Luke 8:43, Matt. 14:36, Strong's # 2899) to serve as a reminder of the commandments (Num. 15:37-39). He observed Passover (John 2:13) and went up to Jerusalem (Deut. 16:16). He observed Succot (John 7:2, 10) and went up to Jerusalem (John 7:14). He also observed Hanukah (John 10:22) and probably Rosh haShanah (John 5:1), going up to Jerusalem on both those occasions as well, even though it isn't commanded in the Torah.The inward sign of His Judaism was a circumcised heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6). When faced with temptation, Yeshua answered from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 4:2-10, Deut. 8:3, 6:16, 6:13). When teaching, He taught from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 22:42-45). When admonishing, He quoted from the Hebrew Scripture (Mk. 7:6-13). Yeshua self-identified as a Jew (John 4:22) and as King of the Jews (Mk. 15:2). From His birth to His last Passover seder (Luke 22:14-15), Jesus lived as a Jew. Again quoting from Hebrew scripture doesn't mean he was a Jew. If that is the case the Muslims are Jews too as you will find quotes up in the Quran as well. Furthermore I will stand by the fact that your Jesus was not a Jew by practice. Lets look at the commandments shall we? Commandment number 1 which is what he was supposedly murdered for specifically states Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.So we know that was broken. No need to have commentary on that one. Hell we can throw the 2nd and 3rd commandments on that as well. Commandment #4 Ex 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Did Jesus keep this day holy? Furthermore Jesus and John were born to Jewish parents. Both were circumcised after 8 days. Both were taken to Passover Festivals etc... NOW show me where they stated afterward people need to be circumcised? Show me as adults when they celebrated the Passover? Yom Kippur? Shauvot? Rosh Hashanah. Show Us please.. Can you? Show these Jewish customs being practiced which is what makes a person Jewish. That's like me who grew up in the church, who celebrated Christmas, who was baptized and NOW I say all of that was and is wrong. That the creator is the sacred feminine and the religions have bastardized her name. Am I Jewish too? Christian? Muslim? Sounds insane right? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jun 1, 2010 9:16:42 GMT -5
Your diminuitive response still doesn't answer the question, babe. "So, you don't believe that magick was used by our ancestors and/or is being used successfully today? " & lemme get this straight...magick (in your estimation) is NOT used to create change? If someone uses magick to heal, is that not a change from the state of dis-ease? If tantra is used to elevate the sexual experience & raise kundalini, is that not a change from the base, animal nature from which most people experience sex? If so, then how is it that you say that magick is not used to create change? Expound please. Diminutive huh? Listen... 1. There is no difference between Magick and Magic. Stop listening to Wiccans. 2. If one uses what is called Magic they are in touch with the source of creation period regardless of what it is used for. Your thread given the aforementioned was baseless from the beginning in my estimation. Nice try though. Go read John 14:12 |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Jun 1, 2010 13:04:46 GMT -5
Hey Muse,
Not trying to hijack your thread, but based on what specifically, has anyone (that you know of) reached common knowledge that Jesus was part of the said Order? What is/are the specific passages, and out of what document do they allegedly come?
It's believed that Jesus was initiated & taught by them in the early years before he began his ministry.
I'm thinking of Luke 2: 39-52 right now. Jesus seemed to be wise well beyond His 12 years of age and astounding in His understanding then (remember when He was in the temple)? So I'd really be interested in hearing when and what exactly they were supposed to teach Him.
That would determine how I would respond if it was proven that He was taught by them and in their order.
p.s. It's also been alleged that He (Jesus) was taught in India. Seems like everyone wants a piece of the action
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conversation for another day). 
. Next question...
{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
@ you though; I been asking bout you forever; ain't heard from you in YEARS. 
