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Post by FatalDST on Dec 23, 2008 13:34:43 GMT -5
I don't know if I agree, Cam. I can't say it's always "low self-esteem" that leads a person to post-pledge. Some people feel that by not post-pledging or going through some sort of "extra", they are missing out on certain aspects of their membership. There is certain information that hey will not be privvy to, and some members feel that if you didn't "get down", they will not bother to share certain things with you.To an extent, I can understand. Who wants "Membership Lite"? Agree. Have seen this on several ocassions.. and dont let them go to an event like a boat ride or something... I have seen ppl get set up to look like a fool because they know they are not going to know something.. I digress... |
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Post by pinkngreen06 on Dec 23, 2008 18:16:33 GMT -5
^ But doesn't that just enforce the notion that if you aren't pledged, then you're "not down"?
Personally I believe that those kinds of attitudes take away from the true ideals of the organization. It also reeks of insecurity & immaturity (IMHO).
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Post by LejaOMG on Dec 23, 2008 20:03:53 GMT -5
Ok, let me qualify my answer. I still think post-pledging is asinine but that's just my thoughts. I do understand a 25 year old who wasn't able to join in college doing something like this. A grown assed man/woman though? A 30 year old man deciding that he wants to post pledge is a self esteem issue. They don't have enough confidence in who they are to stand on their own. why even join a fraternity if you're just gonna have to stand on your own anyway? Why purposely choose not to experience (what you perceive to be) the fullness of your membership when you have the youth/desire/wear-with-all/time to spare? |
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Post by No Screen Name on Dec 23, 2008 21:04:36 GMT -5
^^^that is a very good point.
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Post by Southie on Dec 24, 2008 8:46:47 GMT -5
I don't know if I agree, Cam. I can't say it's always "low self-esteem" that leads a person to post-pledge. Some people feel that by not post-pledging or going through some sort of "extra", they are missing out on certain aspects of their membership. There is certain information that hey will not be privvy to, and some members feel that if you didn't "get down", they will not bother to share certain things with you. To an extent, I can understand. Who wants "Membership Lite"? ...very good point |
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Post by Cambist on Dec 24, 2008 9:44:25 GMT -5
When I say "stand on your own" i'm saying that you have worth beyond your process. That's so shallow. I understand the culture and this phenomenon proves that our organizations have lost their identity.
I was initiated as a graduate. I don't pretend to share stories about how I "got down" and i've never had an issue with brothers not treating me with respect or hanging out. I never felt like I was an outsider. A blatent joke or two here and there, yeah, but nothing out of the ordinary. I've actually even been in conversations about the subject with brothers who feel that there should be NO graduate initiations. That's what I mean by standing on your own. Especially since the conversation occured with a group of brothers sitting around just drinking some drank and choppin it up.
If someone feels that they need to receive an experience outside of the sanctioned process then go for it. But in the end, your membership is till the same. The national organization still recognizes your membership has graduate and no matter what letters you put on your jacket, you did not come into the organization undergrad.
The context is not the same. Your entire experience is a lie.
Maybe it's a difference in organizational cultures. I can only speak for Alpha.
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Post by pinkngreen06 on Dec 24, 2008 14:50:18 GMT -5
FI recently had this played out over the prior weekend. I was at a Que Party & was reunited w/ some young ladies I went to HS w/ (they're a couple of years behind me). I found out one was a Zeta & joined under grad. When I asked if she knew a friend of mine she very quickly mentioned how she was "Paper" because she joined Grad & that she "didn't go as hard" like her.
Now this took me aback for several reasons:
1. Ole girl knew I wasn't a ZPhiB by the para I had on. So she shouldn't be putting her sorors business out there like that.
2. Made a point of telling me how she was made vs. her soror.
3. I had never had someone say that about someone & thought it was really tasteless.
Thinking about the other conversations regarding this issue I guess it really depends on the org & the individual.
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Post by LejaOMG on Dec 24, 2008 19:02:01 GMT -5
If someone feels that they need to receive an experience outside of the sanctioned process then go for it. But in the end, your membership is till the same. The national organization still recognizes your membership has graduate and no matter what letters you put on your jacket, you did not come into the organization undergrad. The context is not the same. Your entire experience is a lie. Artificial, yes. A lie, not necessarily. Otherwise, technically, here in 2008 there is no such thing as a pledge club. Does that then mean that anyone claiming to have gotten down post 1991 is a pretender? Not necessarily. It only means that the context of that particular experience represents something different than it used to. If a UG member can have a pledge process despite the national situation being what it is, I don't see any ostensible reason why a grad member can't do the same without being accused of having low self esteem (especially in orgs where the pledge club has historically applied to the graduate chapter as well). I can think of certain good reasons a person may want to undergo a rigorous rite-of-passage which in no way involve pretending to be undergraduates. |
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Post by Cambist on Dec 24, 2008 21:59:20 GMT -5
Can you now? Run'em.
If your organization has a grad chapter that still has pledge clubs (official or not) and it is recognized by the membership as a valid process then go for it. But too often, when this happens, grad members simply latch in with or end up (sometimes by no real choice of their own) participating with UG's.
If this "game" is about perception then it really doesn't matter what you did that was EXTRA if those in your membership don't recognize it. You become a grad, perping a UG lifestyle and experience.
As I said, maybe it's an org specific issue and I can only speak for what i've seen and heard in my org.
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Post by BKupInHere on Dec 24, 2008 22:03:56 GMT -5
<--knows this is a Greek issue,but I just wanted to make a comment on "bullets flying"
the week before I became a Crescent Sweetheart,some guys were refused entrance to a Frat Party in Long Island...sure enough,they came back and started shooting...
...while everyone was scrambling a Big Brother told my Court Sister "PROTECT THE CRESCENTS!!!" LOL (we STILL laugh about that,like WTF???)***
***no Crescents,sweethearts or org members were hurt...that was 20 years ago
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Post by LejaOMG on Dec 25, 2008 15:41:41 GMT -5
yes, Cam. I think this may be org-specific.
Where I come from, UGs do not have the monopoly on getting down. I think that's all I have to say about that.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 25, 2008 17:03:57 GMT -5
So If you came through grad and you had an underground process, you're a potential liability, trying to relive some underground experience, you should have different objectives, and/or you are having the process to just feel better?
Okay... will it offend anyone if I put a big ol "N/A" on this topic when it comes to Omega? (NOTE: I don't actually care if you're offended or not I'm actually just being sarcastic for my own entertainment)
Bruh: So why didn't you pursue Omega while in school?
Him: Well truthfully I had some anxiety about it..
Bruh: Oh so basically you were scared. So you're saying you lacked Manhood?
Him: Well my grades weren't up to par and I was trying to graduate..
Bruh: Oh so you lacked Manhood AND Scholarship. Umm I see..
Entire time you've been questioned by a bruh with his temperament, looking at you Just like this.
LOL |
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Post by suavesince1911 on Dec 27, 2008 0:59:07 GMT -5
If you "post pledge" you have a self esteem issue. If you are a grad initiate and are post pledged with undergrads you have serious self esteem issues. I'm not saying that you are stupid because I know that social pressures can be strong and no one is immuned. But if you participate in this type of activity....you have issues that no process is going to solve. Moreover, by participating in this activity, you are NOT lending any more credibility to your status of being "real" or "made". Grow up. I agree wholeheartedly with this. Some people are more concerned with the status that comes along with being "seen" by certain people rather than the actual knowledge acquired through the "process." In my neck of the woods, they call it "street cred." So what a minute: we're talking about grown ass men/women (and in some cases married with children) with a professional career and you are looking for some kind of "street cred" to "validate" your membership?  I'm sorry, but that IS a self-esteem issue. Grow up! |
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Post by No Screen Name on Dec 27, 2008 20:26:16 GMT -5
I LOVE you, Suave--and Cam, too.  But I disagree. Perhaps what you're saying applies to some, but I can only speak for myself. I think my self-esteem is pretty healthy, and I am not that concerned with what people think of me. I have been treated NOTHING but sisterly (for the most part) by Sorors that I have met or who are in my chapter. But I would have preferred to go through a "plus". Not for "street cred", not for "validation", but for myself, and the additional knowledge, experiences and bonding opportunities. At the same time, I was pretty young when I was initiated, and if you're speaking of a 35+ year-old person with kids, a spouse and a mortgage, maybe you have a point. But again, if they chose to do it, I don't know that I'd necessarily look down on them. I guess it depends. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 1, 2009 13:46:43 GMT -5
In light of recent convos, bump for new perspective.
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 1, 2009 13:54:33 GMT -5
This was a good post.  |
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Post by Cambist on Jul 1, 2009 14:00:12 GMT -5
If you "post pledge" you have a self esteem issue. If you are a grad initiate and are post pledged with undergrads you have serious self esteem issues. I'm not saying that you are stupid because I know that social pressures can be strong and no one is immuned. But if you participate in this type of activity....you have issues that no process is going to solve. Moreover, by participating in this activity, you are NOT lending any more credibility to your status of being "real" or "made". Grow up. I still feel the same way.... |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 1, 2009 14:01:09 GMT -5
So do I. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 1, 2009 14:08:21 GMT -5
Since, I bumped this thread, I'll share something:
I was recently reminded of the asininity of postpledging. Simultaneously I extolled the virtues of MIP+. How is this possible? Well the reason I think postpledging is dumb has nothing to do with the actual "getting down" so much as the anachronism of it all. It almost always splits lines and your initial process still IWII. It's nearly impossible to get responsible people to assist in the post-pledging process, so after it's all said and done, you STILL don't know anything, but this time you have a broken paddle to show for it. Amounts to skating twice, IMO. When I meet folks who say "I crossed in 04, but I krossed in 05" I get sick to my stomach. Whatchu want, extra respect? The only thing worse than agreeing to postpledge is agreeing to postpledge, then dropping (another story for another day).
My name is Leja and I am a proponent of MIP+. There. I said it. And I ain't ashamed. If your chapter (no matter the level) has responsibly and carefully designed a meaningful, yet rigorous course of study for your entire line, I say GO FOR IT. What's the difference? When you're done, you're done. No staying online past the rit. No turning the line over to the undergrads. Just plain ol' "this is how Chi Zeta Alumnae gets down." How can you have anything but respect for that? My opinion about folks who have a strong disdain for MIP+ is that they weren't given the opportunity, and had they been, they would happily have undergone whatever was required (in reason).
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 1, 2009 14:11:42 GMT -5
My name is Leja and I am a proponent of MIP+. There. I said it. And I ain't ashamed. If your chapter (no matter the level) has responsibly and carefully designed a meaningful, yet rigorous course of study for your entire line, I say GO FOR IT. What's the difference? When you're done, you're done. No staying online past the rit. No turning the line over to the undergrads. Just plain ol' "this is how Chi Zeta Alumnae gets down." How can you have anything but respect for that? My opinion about folks who have a strong disdain for MIP+ is that they weren't given the opportunity, and had they been, they would happily have undergone whatever was required (in reason). I agree with this 100%. |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Jul 1, 2009 14:36:44 GMT -5
I think those who didnt pledge will always feel one way and those who did will always feel another. Those who didnt pledge feel people should "grow up"; those who did feel that those who didnt should "shut up and pledge". It is what it is. Im of the opinion that if you have the opportunity to pledge and dont then dont worry about why and how or for what reason someone else CHOSE to. Rather than assume someone is immature or needs to grow up, why not mind your business? If you werent given the opportunity to pledge but wanted to, appreciate your process for what it was, dont perp, and dont try to be "extra". If you pledged and had a good process, feel grateful. If you came through grad and didnt pledge, dont be all shocked and appalled when some people look at you like  but the real reason people get looked at like that is when they try to FRONT like they did more than they did. If you didnt pledge, dont go around trying to challenge and haze people up....stay in your lane. If you did pledge, ok great but at some point, it should not be themost important thing in your life and shouldnt be used to make others feel small (unnecessarily...sometimes its oh so very necessary). We all came into this world differently but we are all here. Deal with it. |
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Post by Cambist on Jul 1, 2009 14:47:17 GMT -5
Yeah, to me it's akin to pretending that you're blind so you can "understand". In the end, you just bumped into some tables and had saggins rip you off because you STILL don't "understand".
Like Leja said, IIWII and you can't change that. If your chapter doesn't have the reputation of "getting down" yet you post-pledge and claim that as some kind of rite of passage that's supposed to give you some street cred, then you need to grow up.
If you have been initiated into Alpha Phi Alpha and you allow someone to treat you like a Sphinxman, you are a dumbass.....and you have self-esteem issues. Period.
Truth is, most of the stuff you learn underground in undergrad is essentially useless catechism that has no use outside of that particular circle (usually in that area or region) so what are you doing?
I've seen it a lot of crazy stuff in my short time. Post-pledging, while it may seem like a good idea to a 19-21 year old....should be frowned upon by grown folks.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Jul 1, 2009 14:47:35 GMT -5
This debate will rage until the conversation shifts from "how did you come in" to "what kind of XYZ" are you. If you know your history and protocol, are working actively for Delta, and are generally representing my sorority favorably, I don't care whether you pledged or not. I've seen trifling folks in both the pre-1990 and post-1990 camps.
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Post by THE emPRISS on Jul 1, 2009 14:49:16 GMT -5
I clearly cant read....(or didnt) I didnt realize it was only about post pledging...I was talking about pledging in general.
never mind bc i dont even know what post pledging is....lol
carry on.
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 1, 2009 14:56:46 GMT -5
Priss, I think the ORIGINAL topic was "MIP Plus" for graduates. Should graduates members have the option to go through a "plus", or an underground process.
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Post by THE emPRISS on Jul 1, 2009 14:58:04 GMT -5
Actually, I take that back. Im assuming it means MIP then pledging. If thats what they want to do, thats their business. It may be because they want the experience they expected. Its still not the same though.
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Post by Cambist on Jul 1, 2009 15:01:06 GMT -5
Actually, I take that back. Im assuming it means MIP then pledging. If thats what they want to do, thats their business. It may be because they want the experience they expected. Its still not the same though. That's my point. Everytime I hear it I can't help but thing about the guy who blindfolds himself for a month only to come back and say, "I know what it's like to be blind". No you don't. |
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Post by Robelite on Jul 1, 2009 15:17:56 GMT -5
Yeah, to me it's akin to pretending that you're blind so you can "understand". In the end, you just bumped into some tables and had saggins rip you off because you STILL don't "understand". Like Leja said, IIWII and you can't change that. If your chapter doesn't have the reputation of "getting down" yet you post-pledge and claim that as some kind of rite of passage that's supposed to give you some street cred, then you need to grow up. If you have been initiated into Alpha Phi Alpha and you allow someone to treat you like a Sphinxman, you are a dumbass.....and you have self-esteem issues. Period. Truth is, most of the stuff you learn underground in undergrad is essentially useless catechism that has no use outside of that particular circle (usually in that area or region) so what are you doing? I've seen it a lot of crazy stuff in my short time. Post-pledging, while it may seem like a good idea to a 19-21 year old....should be frowned upon by grown folks. And I still agree ^^! I will add that I think POST-PLEDGING by a 19-21 year old is foolishness, and should be frowned upon. That is all.  |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 1, 2009 15:27:59 GMT -5
So what if you came in MIP, truly do not know what you need to know, feel unsatisfied with your process, thus far are destined to be a sub-par member and have a desire to "get right"? What do you do? Are we really going to pretend that most such information is freely handed over? Are we also going to pretend that the lessons a person learns while pledging (such as time value, implicit trust, and creativity) are only useful in a pledge atmosphere? If we're being truly honest, what would it hurt for someone to put themselves in a situation to gain some of the benefits of having pledged, though they are technically already members?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jul 1, 2009 15:29:07 GMT -5
No pledge process equates to all of the "knowledge" you read and recite during challenging is mute. You have no clear understanding of it what so ever. Just regurgitation with no physical data to rest upon.
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"They get two Roos and a snap." ~ perroloco{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif{/=}{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif{/=}
I'm sorry, but that IS a self-esteem issue.
But I disagree. Perhaps what you're saying applies to some, but I can only speak for myself. I think my self-esteem is pretty healthy, and I am not that concerned with what people think of me. I have been treated NOTHING but sisterly (for the most part) by Sorors that I have met or who are in my chapter. But I would have preferred to go through a "plus". Not for "street cred", not for "validation", but for myself, and the additional knowledge, experiences and bonding opportunities.
but the real reason people get looked at like that is when they try to FRONT like they did more than they did. If you didnt pledge, dont go around trying to challenge and haze people up....stay in your lane. If you did pledge, ok great but at some point, it should not be themost important thing in your life and shouldnt be used to make others feel small (unnecessarily...sometimes its oh so very necessary).
