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Post by Robelite on Jul 6, 2009 9:04:25 GMT -5
Feels that Robe's P.S. is not necessary... just more stuff to say And that's your right to feel that way, just as it was mine to make those statements. If you go back and read some of the other entries in the thread, you MIGHT see why it was made, but you're not required to do so. No harm, no foul. |
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Post by Iceman on Jul 6, 2009 10:39:17 GMT -5
For the record, I am NOT a fan of post-pledging (Grad or Undergrad). I've known some people to do it, and sometimes for the reasons they did it I could understand (i.e. they had WAY too much scrutiny on them to carry it out successfully before MIP).
Both sides make decent arguments, but here's what I want to ask the anti-pledge lobby (and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way)
How do you propose new members be made to feel comfortable in their organization WITHOUT a pledge process? I really mean no harm, but I just never understand why anti-pledge folks ignore the 10,000 lb elephant in the room. Who in the WORLD wants to feel like they didn't earn what they have and have that notion reinforced by peers? Who in the WORLD wants to know that off the break they do not have the respect of their peers? Who wants a lifetime of that? A lifetime of low fat membership? Kinda of like low-fat food isn't supposed to be any different from the original - but really it is and everyone knows it.
This is not just some misguided self-esteem issue. Wanting respect and an equal share in things are two basic tenets that were woven into Civil Rights Movement. We had citizenship lite. We were not respected and made to feel like outcasts. We're not gonna chalk that up to immaturity are we?
I can understand and appreciate the Neo-training session that Cold talked about - but it's NOT the same - and I think most people in here know that THAT is going to be the prevailing sentiment. It's a step in the right direction - but it's not the answer.
For your consideration: For those of us who took Chemistry classes in school - do you recall that we DIDN'T just learn from the book but that we had to run actual labs and experiments to reinforce the lesson? A different angle - would you rather have a basketball coach that played and studied the game, or one who just STUDIED the game?
If we don't offer some sort of pledge process could you possibly say you are prepared for ALL the aspects of your fraternal life (not just the business but the SOCIAL too)? Then why do we continually suggest this for new members? WHY send them out into that wilderness unprepared when you KNOW what's waiting for them? Feel me y'all... THAT wilderness, IS part of the reality of their fraternal life TOO. It may not be official, sanctioned, or Conclave/Convention/Boule' approved - but it exists and we KNOW it exists. You can't go to a party, Pan-Hell cookout, Greek Mixer, heck a Christmas dinner without running into it. It's out there EVERYWHERE. Your Fraternal life is not just committee reports, and budgets. There is interaction with all sorts of members... and we're telling them - what?
Don't Worry About it?
Post-pledging is for low self-esteem?
Show 'em your membership card?
Ask them if they're financial? (yeah that'll show 'em)
Here's what I propose:
(I know folks are going to think this is directed at Rob but it's really not - it's what I wanted to tell this 67 Bruh while he was lecturing me about teaching a neo some information - but if he feels like it applies I'm sure he'll respond) If you are an old-head and you think that "made-up" stuff associated with pledging has no credence... go to a gathering of members, introduce yourself as a "NEO" and THEN say it. See how far you get with that. At least KNOW what your real Neos are up against before you say there's nothing to worry about.
If you agree to someone coming in without a process - be responsible for them. Don't just send them to a cook-out, go with them. When people challenge them with "made up" stuff - answer for them. When people ask about his process, step in and say pledging is illegal. Don't be a part-time adviser - be a full share-holder in all their fraternal experiences.
Let's not sit on our safe perch away from danger because of when we initiated or because you're not as involved in fraternal life as you used to be, get down in the trenches with your new members and SEE what they're faced with.
End Rant. D Dash - Powerful Post. Good Stuff |
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Post by Iceman on Jul 6, 2009 10:58:34 GMT -5
This discussion definitely reveals organizational differences. I've been to numerous parties, cookouts, and every other type of event, and I've never been questioned beyond basic challenges that all Brothers should know. The few times that I have been asked off the wall stuff, it was by Brothers that I already knew. The only para snatching incidents I've heard about was between undergrads...I can safely say that sort of thing is rare in Alpha among individuals over the age of 21 lol. @ Cold, Cam and Rob Bros - I definitely agree that there are organizational differences that distinctively set us all part from one another. Beyond the undergrad level (or if someone is straight perping), it’s not common to see nalia snatching in Alpha around these parts either. When you start talking about Bros in their late 20’s and up, you will moreso see some Bros just distancing themselves and putting the word out on cats who are Suspect – Suspect as in: not knowing their stuff, have too many lingering questions about them or dudes claiming a process they never had. But due to instances of suspect dudes & perps being exposed in the past, even outside of “official” challenges, it’s not uncommon for a Bro to catch an impromptu interrogation about their process from various Bros (at least up North). Just to see what’s what. If you had a process, then engage in talking “two-way” shop with your Brother. No harm right? But if you didn’t - Don’t front. Just keep it 100. And therein lies the problem a lot of times. Dudes want to front – But why? If someone didn’t pledge, but is a member that is working for the Org, so be it. It’s not like older Bros (with families and careers mind you) are gonna want to throw hands or start snatching nalia just because an actual member didn’t pledge. Nah, that’s not how we do. Many older Bros just want to know that you are an “actual” member first and foremost – Then the strength and extent of the Fraternal bond to be had “may or may not” be based on if a Bro had a pledge process (IIWII). But, it’s just when certain dudes go into faking the funk on a process they never had, that the inevitable can of worms gets opened up. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 6, 2009 11:00:05 GMT -5
Almost makes me wanna start another thread...
Stay tuned.
Did I tell ya'll I really like Iceman?
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Post by Robelite on Jul 6, 2009 11:15:00 GMT -5
@ Cold, Cam and Rob Bros - I definitely agree that there are organizational differences that distinctively set us all part from one another. Beyond the undergrad level (or if someone is straight perping), it’s not common to see nalia snatching in Alpha around these parts either. . That is the ONLY instance where I would likely advocate "nalia-snatchin'!" We've got a li'l ass-crack here in the city now with an Alpha tag on the front of his car, and a tag frame on the back! He's really got some deep-seeded mental issues going on! I've already DARED him to drive that vehicle (with the accessories) to New Orleans next week, and see if he can make it out of the city without being thrown into Lake Ponchatrain! |
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Post by Julie Art on Jul 6, 2009 11:16:42 GMT -5
This discussion definitely reveals organizational differences. I've been to numerous parties, cookouts, and every other type of event, and I've never been questioned beyond basic challenges that all Brothers should know. The few times that I have been asked off the wall stuff, it was by Brothers that I already knew. The only para snatching incidents I've heard about was between undergrads...I can safely say that sort of thing is rare in Alpha among individuals over the age of 21 lol. @ Cold, Cam and Rob Bros - I definitely agree that there are organizational differences that distinctively set us all part from one another. Beyond the undergrad level (or if someone is straight perping), it’s not common to see nalia snatching in Alpha around these parts either. When you start talking about Bros in their late 20’s and up, you will moreso see some Bros just distancing themselves and putting the word out on cats who are Suspect – Suspect as in: not knowing their stuff, have too many lingering questions about them or dudes claiming a process they never had. But due to instances of suspect dudes & perps being exposed in the past, even outside of “official” challenges, it’s not uncommon for a Bro to catch an impromptu interrogation about their process from various Bros (at least up North). Just to see what’s what. If you had a process, then engage in talking “two-way” shop with your Brother. No harm right? But if you didn’t - Don’t front. Just keep it 100. And therein lies the problem a lot of times. Dudes want to front – But why? If someone didn’t pledge, but is a member that is working for the Org, so be it. It’s not like older Bros (with families and careers mind you) are gonna want to throw hands or start snatching nalia just because an actual member didn’t pledge. Nah, that’s not how we do. Many older Bros just want to know that you are an “actual” member first and foremost – Then the strength and extent of the Fraternal bond to be had “may or may not” be based on if a Bro had a pledge process (IIWII). But, it’s just when certain dudes go into faking the funk on a process they never had, that the inevitable can of worms gets opened up. I've witnessed a couple of times the beginning of "charging gone wrong" amongst Alphas and I have promptly removed myself to let what ever needs to be handled, handled. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Jul 6, 2009 12:25:14 GMT -5
This discussion definitely reveals organizational differences. I've been to numerous parties, cookouts, and every other type of event, and I've never been questioned beyond basic challenges that all Brothers should know. The few times that I have been asked off the wall stuff, it was by Brothers that I already knew. The only para snatching incidents I've heard about was between undergrads...I can safely say that sort of thing is rare in Alpha among individuals over the age of 21 lol. ..and there it is, right there! P.S. For those who've used the "anti-pledge" moniker....I can only speak for ALPHA PHI ALPHA FRATERNITY, INC. If I am "anti-pledge" as some of you want to call it, it's because MY fraternity says (in its constitution and by-laws,) that pledging is no longer permitted in Alpha Phi Alpha. Just part of a little something called THE OATH that I took after I crossed some years ago. As for any of the rest of you, you may do and support whatever you wish in your respective orgs.
Rob if you swore an oath, I hope that:
1. Pledging wasn't outlawed at the time you made your oath or
2. If pledging was already outlawed that you didn't pledge
Failure of either one of these 2 things would seem to imply some hypocrisy. |
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Post by ReignMan19 on Jul 6, 2009 12:37:28 GMT -5
^^^ You are referring to Rob right... Didn't he write the hymns??
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Post by coldfront06 on Jul 6, 2009 12:38:24 GMT -5
^^^ You are referring to Rob right... Didn't he right the hymns?? LOL...I do think I remember seeing his name in the history book a few times. He pledged well before it was outlawed by Alpha. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 6, 2009 12:51:52 GMT -5
Y'all quit messin' wit my e-boo.  |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 6, 2009 13:13:01 GMT -5
not for nothing, pledging was outlawed as early as 1987 for at least on D9 org
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BLAC-A-MUS PRYME
OOA Interest
Grow in the knowledge of self[C01:0000FF]
Posts: 33
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Post by BLAC-A-MUS PRYME on Jul 6, 2009 13:13:17 GMT -5
@rob - no harm no foul. Agreed.
I can say this to the old heads, if it wasn't for the strolling, the parties, the families insisting that you join a d9, or ________________________________, would you join?
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Post by coldfront06 on Jul 6, 2009 13:14:09 GMT -5
not for nothing, pledging was outlawed as early as 1987 for at least on D9 org Rob was before that even...the dude is OLD, lol. |
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Post by Robelite on Jul 6, 2009 13:42:06 GMT -5
@rob - no harm no foul. Agreed. I can say this to the old heads, if it wasn't for the strolling, the parties, the families insisting that you join a d9, or ________________________________, would you join? Thing is BP, I didn't join Alpha for ANY of those reasons. There was no one in my family that was a member of a BGLO to insist that I join one or the other. I have a sister who was DST-inclined, and I can say (based on what I know from her own mouth,) her admiration for Delta Sigma Theta went well beyond how they stepped, strolled or partied at Wilberforce Univ. back in the day. |
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Post by Robelite on Jul 6, 2009 13:44:44 GMT -5
..and there it is, right there! P.S. For those who've used the "anti-pledge" moniker....I can only speak for ALPHA PHI ALPHA FRATERNITY, INC. If I am "anti-pledge" as some of you want to call it, it's because MY fraternity says (in its constitution and by-laws,) that pledging is no longer permitted in Alpha Phi Alpha. Just part of a little something called THE OATH that I took after I crossed some years ago. As for any of the rest of you, you may do and support whatever you wish in your respective orgs.
Rob if you swore an oath, I hope that:
1. Pledging wasn't outlawed at the time you made your oath or
2. If pledging was already outlawed that you didn't pledge
Failure of either one of these 2 things would seem to imply some hypocrisy.I PLEDGED (or solemnly swore) to uphold the constitution and bylaws of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc....not just in 1984, or in 1994, but for a LIFETIME! So what that means is, whatever amendments were (or will be added) to the constitution of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc, my oath says that I will abide by and uphold them! The same way Barack Obama's oath called for him to solemnly swear to uphold and protect the constitution of the United States of America. See how that works?  Like I said earlier...those of you who wish to do you in YOUR orgs, go on wit cho' bad selves!! I don't have any voice in how you interpret your constitutions, how you value your oaths (if you took one,) or anything else. I beseech of you not to do so with me and mine. |
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Post by Prissy New Year!!! on Jul 6, 2009 15:41:41 GMT -5
But if you come into the organization and have no concept of structure and organizational culture, chances are it's because the people that taught you didn't bother in which case, you will probably not get that information anyway through a post pledging process. Cam I hear ya homie but its a different monster handing in a committee report or minutes to your Dean versus your chapter president. Organizational structure is best taught while in the cut if you ask me. See in the end the older folks who did pledge will forever look down upon those who didn't and say ye are not fit to lead because you were not made right have may be a potential vector for outside influences. The pledge process isn't gone because of lawsuits its gone because of money, greed and power. You got undergraduates who hold positions and have not a damn clue about the orgs constitution and by laws. Half of this UG chapters that get kicked off or suspended by there nationals are done so fraudulently. The lack of the pledge process structure has dumbed down the membership coming in across the board. At the bolded...you may be on to something there. |
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Post by Julie Art on Jul 6, 2009 15:45:58 GMT -5
From my experience, he is indeed.
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Post by Prissy New Year!!! on Jul 6, 2009 15:49:05 GMT -5
But if you come into the organization and have no concept of structure and organizational culture, chances are it's because the people that taught you didn't bother in which case, you will probably not get that information anyway through a post pledging process. See in the end the older folks who did pledge will forever look down upon those who didn't and say ye are not fit to lead because you were not made right have may be a potential vector for outside influences. The pledge process isn't gone because of lawsuits its gone because of money, greed and power. You got undergraduates who hold positions and have not a damn clue about the orgs constitution and by laws. Half of this UG chapters that get kicked off or suspended by there nationals are done so fraudulently. The lack of the pledge process structure has dumbed down the membership coming in across the board. Here I am agreeing with VP twice in about 2 minutes...this has got to be a record.  I was shocked at how much differently my undergrad chapter was from the grad chapter I joined. In undergrad we wore business attire and sorority pins. We conducted our meetings according to the Roberts rule of order. There was no side chatter or disrespect at all. We were a disciplined crew of soldiers and we got a lot accomplished on campus. I was shocked when I saw Sorors in pants at the graduate chapter meeting. Folks were walking around, talking and eating DURING the meeting. None of that behavior would have happened during undergrad. I chalk it up to being disciplined and trained to be serious about the business of Alpha Kappa Alpha. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 6, 2009 16:09:11 GMT -5
^^this is REAL damn TALK.
I was Basileus in UG and my ship was TIGHT. I'll never forget the first time I walked in a grad meeting and the Basileus was wearing a t-shirt and jeans. She asked me "where're you goin dressed like that?" I could reply no other way than "Mme. Basileus, I was just about to ask you the same thing."
Another time (in my current chapter), a younger grad-initated member asked me "Are you going somewhere afterward? You look too board-room for chapter meeting." I had to say "Actually, I'm going to do the work of our FOUNDERS. What do you think is the appropriate attire for that?"
Even now, I require professional attire for my committee meetings even if the chapter meetings are casual. I really, really can't stand it. Relaxed clothes lead to a relaxed attitude for many people. Especially those (like the young soror above) who've never known anything different
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Jul 6, 2009 17:13:03 GMT -5
That's all I knew. Business attire, all black, Sorority pin.
When I find a Grad chapter right for me......................hopefully I won't come into the issues other have had, if I do...............oh I'll have stories.............................
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Post by Julie Art on Jul 6, 2009 20:32:41 GMT -5
In my ug you couldn't wear casual clothes to meetings either. And Roberts rule was followed to a T no ifs about that. Say what you want but there is a vast difference from those who went ugrad then those who went grad from my experience, maybe because of that pledge factor.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jul 6, 2009 22:06:25 GMT -5
Cam I hear ya homie but its a different monster handing in a committee report or minutes to your Dean versus your chapter president. Organizational structure is best taught while in the cut if you ask me.See in the end the older folks who did pledge will forever look down upon those who didn't and say ye are not fit to lead because you were not made right have may be a potential vector for outside influences. The pledge process isn't gone because of lawsuits its gone because of money, greed and power. You got undergraduates who hold positions and have not a damn clue about the orgs constitution and by laws. Half of this UG chapters that get kicked off or suspended by there nationals are done so fraudulently. The lack of the pledge process structure has dumbed down the membership coming in across the board. Here I am agreeing with VP twice in about 2 minutes...this has got to be a record. I was shocked at how much differently my undergrad chapter was from the grad chapter I joined. In undergrad we wore business attire and sorority pins. We conducted our meetings according to the Roberts rule of order. There was no side chatter or disrespect at all. We were a disciplined crew of soldiers and we got a lot accomplished on campus. I was shocked when I saw Sorors in pants at the graduate chapter meeting. Folks were walking around, talking and eating DURING the meeting. None of that behavior would have happened during undergrad. I chalk it up to being disciplined and trained to be serious about the business of Alpha Kappa Alpha. Yanno somethings I used to love doing was when an older brother would come up for a formal meeting without shirt and tie... lol I'd be like "Bruh you know you're not coming into my meeting right?" I LOVED doing that to bruhs. Sending ninjas home flying just to get a shirt, tie and slacks. I knew all they wanted to do was disrupt and vent blah blah blah therefore we would be RUNNING through the meeting like a mofo like keep this ish moving no bsin tonight folk got chit to do. Then as we are adjourning bruhs be back like damn the meeting over already? YUP... tell my KRS to get his email or home address if we didn't already have it and he will forward the minutes to him. State to him for the next meeting please remember to be on time better yet be early. BUT I must say grad meetings I have been too have been run tight. I can honestly say I have never been in a untight formal meeting for Omega Psi Phi undergrad or grad. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 8:39:07 GMT -5
lol @ "untight"
Our grad meetings are not less formal or "tight" than they were in UG, but I hate hate HATE the casualness of the setting. HATE it!
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Post by THE emPRISS on Jul 7, 2009 11:27:51 GMT -5
Cam I hear ya homie but its a different monster handing in a committee report or minutes to your Dean versus your chapter president. Organizational structure is best taught while in the cut if you ask me. See in the end the older folks who did pledge will forever look down upon those who didn't and say ye are not fit to lead because you were not made right have may be a potential vector for outside influences. The pledge process isn't gone because of lawsuits its gone because of money, greed and power. You got undergraduates who hold positions and have not a damn clue about the orgs constitution and by laws. Half of this UG chapters that get kicked off or suspended by there nationals are done so fraudulently. The lack of the pledge process structure has dumbed down the membership coming in across the board. At the bolded...you may be on to something there. I have to second that. I know QUITE a few chapters that have been kicked off for unfounded reasons. I also know of many UG chapters getting the shaft just because they are young. I recall PERSONALLY sitting in a...ahem..."meeting" because HARASSED over some BS and when I politely pointed my HARASSERS to a paricular page, paragraph and sub-paragraph of a particular sorority document my harassers got deafingly silent. Dont pull that rank ish on me...it wont work. They let me AND my chapter sorors go... So this notion that only UG's do wrong and the "higher up" always get it right and do it right is complete BS. Pledging outside of MIP is only one of many issues regarding hypocrisy. But I'll leave it at that. |
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 11:37:18 GMT -5
Just for balance, i've been in and been witness to many more chapters being suspended for actually doing wrong than for some political conspiricy.
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 12:01:02 GMT -5
Just for balance, i've been in and been witness to many more chapters being suspended for actually doing wrong than for some political conspiricy. Actually, I have too. Well, what I have seen lots of is: Someone having a vendetta against a chapter so they craft a hazing allegation. As we know, most UG chapters "haze" to some degree, so that particular stab in the dark is often fruitful  |
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 12:31:24 GMT -5
I'm not even talking about that.....for most chapters, in my experience, there is no need for fabrication.
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BLAC-A-MUS PRYME
OOA Interest
Grow in the knowledge of self[C01:0000FF]
Posts: 33
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Post by BLAC-A-MUS PRYME on Jul 7, 2009 21:11:42 GMT -5
@rob - no harm no foul. Agreed. I can say this to the old heads, if it wasn't for the strolling, the parties, the families insisting that you join a d9, or ________________________________, would you join? Thing is BP, I didn't join Alpha for ANY of those reasons. There was no one in my family that was a member of a BGLO to insist that I join one or the other. I have a sister who was DST-inclined, and I can say (based on what I know from her own mouth,) her admiration for Delta Sigma Theta went well beyond how they stepped, strolled or partied at Wilberforce Univ. back in the day. That is the reason why I placed the fill in the blank. Everyone has their personal reasons to why they joined or are interested in a d9 org. My point is if it wasn't for the extras that go beyond the infrastructure laid by the founders, would we join? |
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Post by Coldfront06 on Aug 27, 2009 19:37:55 GMT -5
Last week I attended an Alpha Block Party/BBQ at an undergrad chapter...I went knowing that I probably wouldn't know any of the members there. It made me think about this thread...my previous statements about what happens in Alpha were right on point.
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Post by Cambist on Sept 14, 2009 7:50:38 GMT -5
In my experience....where there's smoke...there's usually fire.
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