Divine Order or Free Will

[Vudu_Prince]

Aug 13, 2009 14:31:52 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

LOL - cut and dry is it? Here's what I'll say in response. You've said alot, and answered alot of questions. I thank you for that. We already knew we wouldn't agree but this exercise was still useful.

You said everything is pre-determined. I don't think that's necessarily true. But if you believe it, then you have a problem. It doesn't matter how you or I or anyone tries to slice it, thinking is an input to the realilty you experience. The only way to satisfy your constraint that man has no input into the system is to prevent thought. If you can't think, you can't even express a belief...

...and you are expressing belief aren't you?

Anyway...

You are free (like everyone else) to subscribe to whatever you like based on whatever you like. I have no great motivation to pick apart what you chose to believe just because I don't share your view. What I believe is sufficient to stand up on it's own.

[glow=gold,2,300]P.S. You are indeed correct. I did err in associating the Rose of Sharon with Jesus (in the context that I did). . [/glow]

There. There's no way anyone can miss that cause I have bolded it, underlined it, and super-sized it.

Don't worry I'm not going to waste time calling you on yours. For one, attacks on Christanity only makes the resolve of the adherants stronger, and thus the body stronger. That would be a perfect example of Thomas Jones view of Divine Order. For second, people are perfectly capable of reading and seeing EXACTLY what went on. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. In that I am confident. Roo.

*Handshake*

I totally disagree with your assessment. Simply put what you should have thought about while writing... belief isn't truth. If you believe everything isn't predetermined and following a divine procession and we affect our reality then you are stating Man is God. In so many words you are stating there isn't a God at all. Now this train of thought I know you truly don't believe but as shown times before you will tear down where you stand just to make a point. Basically contradict your thought process to say you're right... Wrong

It's either or.. Either everything is a divine order from a designer(s) or we are the designers and our actions have built and affect what we see. There is no middle ground. Since I don't have the absolute knowledge of everything I will state that there is designer(s) and we are apart of that order. I will however with all my might try to fight these confines though everything has been set into motion to try and bend or break these rules we live by on a spiritual level. Could I be going down the path of a pre-written program fail safe for unruly adherents... sure can but its worth a try. and just maybe oneday our actions can truly affect our present and futures.

It's not until you look back and connect the dots that you see the script. But those who are sleep will never notice this.

Amazingly you are an adherent to a religion (which is apart of the program I might add) of an entity who broke laws of this existence. Broke the Laws of Physics, Mathematics, Anatomy and Physiology etc etc etc but you state when I say it is those amongst us who seek to rebel I'm wrong? lol See how you tearing your own faith down. Bruh you killing yourself to prove something to me. I guess thats the Jesus way huh? The Lilly of the Valley example is but one of many that have happened during our conversations. You are always like that atleast finally you have admitted it.

[DamieQue™]

Aug 13, 2009 16:03:08 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Aug 13, 2009 14:31:52 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

LOL - cut and dry is it? Here's what I'll say in response. You've said alot, and answered alot of questions. I thank you for that. We already knew we wouldn't agree but this exercise was still useful.

You said everything is pre-determined. I don't think that's necessarily true. But if you believe it, then you have a problem. It doesn't matter how you or I or anyone tries to slice it, thinking is an input to the realilty you experience. The only way to satisfy your constraint that man has no input into the system is to prevent thought. If you can't think, you can't even express a belief...

...and you are expressing belief aren't you?

Anyway...

You are free (like everyone else) to subscribe to whatever you like based on whatever you like. I have no great motivation to pick apart what you chose to believe just because I don't share your view. What I believe is sufficient to stand up on it's own.

[glow=gold,2,300]P.S. You are indeed correct. I did err in associating the Rose of Sharon with Jesus (in the context that I did). . [/glow]

There. There's no way anyone can miss that cause I have bolded it, underlined it, and super-sized it.

Don't worry I'm not going to waste time calling you on yours. For one, attacks on Christanity only makes the resolve of the adherants stronger, and thus the body stronger. That would be a perfect example of Thomas Jones view of Divine Order. For second, people are perfectly capable of reading and seeing EXACTLY what went on. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. In that I am confident. Roo.

*Handshake*

I totally disagree with your assessment. Simply put what you should have thought about while writing... belief isn't truth. If you believe everything isn't predetermined and following a divine procession and we affect our reality then you are stating Man is God. In so many words you are stating there isn't a God at all. Now this train of thought I know you truly don't believe but as shown times before you will tear down where you stand just to make a point. Basically contradict your thought process to say you're right... Wrong

It's either or.. Either everything is a divine order from a designer(s) or we are the designers and our actions have built and affect what we see. There is no middle ground. Since I don't have the absolute knowledge of everything I will state that there is designer(s) and we are apart of that order. I will however with all my might try to fight these confines though everything has been set into motion to try and bend or break these rules we live by on a spiritual level. Could I be going down the path of a pre-written program fail safe for unruly adherents... sure can but its worth a try. and just maybe oneday our actions can truly affect our present and futures.

It's not until you look back and connect the dots that you see the script. But those who are sleep will never notice this.

Amazingly you are an adherent to a religion (which is apart of the program I might add) of an entity who broke laws of this existence. Broke the Laws of Physics, Mathematics, Anatomy and Physiology etc etc etc but you state when I say it is those amongst us who seek to rebel I'm wrong? lol See how you tearing your own faith down. Bruh you killing yourself to prove something to me. I guess thats the Jesus way huh? The Lilly of the Valley example is but one of many that have happened during our conversations. You are always like that atleast finally you have admitted it.

Of course you disagree... you are holding me to your definition of your concepts - which you're entitled to but to which I am free to reject. Bruh there is a reason why people are declining to debate you - and it's not fear. It's your tenuous understanding of Christianity - you're perpetually evolving arguments - and the fact that it makes no sense to debate someone about the details of the Bible who holds that ALL of it is false.

You can't hope to debate details when you do not accept the fundamentals. If you don't believe that there's gravity - there's no point in me debating Newton's Second Law with you.

p.s. I'm not an adherant to a belief system whose Creator broke laws, I'm an adherant to a belief system whose Creator set the laws in place, and authorizes them. Things like this? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Vudu_Prince]

Aug 13, 2009 17:05:41 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

[

Of course you disagree... you are holding me to your definition of your concepts - which you're entitled to but to which I am free to reject. Bruh there is a reason why people are declining to debate you - and it's not fear. It's your tenuous understanding of Christianity - you're perpetually evolving arguments - and the fact that it makes no sense to debate someone about the details of the Bible who holds that ALL of it is false.

Then you don't understand the basic tenets of a debate.
Debate- To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

So if there isn't a dissenter there can be no debate bruh.. lol I'll get to the tenuous understanding of Christianity on the end part.

You can't hope to debate details when you do not accept the fundamentals. If you don't believe that there's gravity - there's no point in me debating Newton's Second Law with you.

Again you don't understand the basics of the scientific method as it applies to research and arriving at truth. In science you can't just say you don't believe something or its false. You have to recreate the object and test it using your variables to show its flaws and prove your premise that is is unsound. Again you fail with this assessment which is surprising because you are a engineer and should know this. But maybe you are applying the Jesus method again by destroying yourself to save others...okay

p.s. I'm not an adherant to a belief system whose Creator broke laws, I'm an adherant to a belief system whose Creator set the laws in place, and authorizes them. Things like this? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[/color][/quote]

Um this is a resolute negative. Was not Jesus born of a virgin? Does that not break the laws of Anatomy and Physiology? Did not Jesus raise Lazarus from the Dead? A & P laws Brokedn Did Jesus not feed 1,000 with 2 fish and a loaf of bread? Laws of Math broken. Did Jesus not walk on water? Physics laws broken. Dead Jesus not cheat death? A & P Laws broken....

See you can't say your Jesus is Jehovah then say he is the Son of David then say he is the Rose Of Sharon... Why all the different titles or was the story trying to convince someone? Like you let some preacher tell you the Son of David is a Messianic title. News flash David per the bible had exactly 19 Sons and 1 Daughter whom were legitimate children. There names are- 1.Amnon 2.Daniel 3.Absalom 4.Adonijah 5.Shephatiah 6.Ithream 7.Shammua 8. Shobab 9.Nathan 10. Solomon 11. Ibhar 12. Elishua 13.Eliphelet 14. Nogah, 15. Nepheg 16. Japhia, 17. Elishama 18.Eliada 19. Eliphelet
20. Tamar the sister of them all.... Don't say I don't have an understanding of Christianity... go to 1 Chronicles Chapter 3 and find Jesus name for me. Like you have never refuted anything I have stated with the text. Ever. The Gospel state Jesus is in the lineage of Solomon then it states its from Nathan... lol



Bruh I knew more about this religion as a 12 year old then probably you do now. Where you sit now I was there at 12, 13. I will say this again... STOP repeating what a preacher has fed you because it makes you look foolish. If Jesus is God and set the laws in motion then why he need to mimic the sons of men to confirm this? You stated yourself truth must stand up under peer review but now since I don't believe I can't question it? Pick a side and stand firm...

[Kryptik]

Wow at all the above. You guys are really breaking this down.

Now, I myself love debate, but I feel that the sentiment below tells me why you, VP, have the stance that you do...

Aug 12, 2009 22:34:54 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Aug 12, 2009 15:59:23 GMT -5 Kryptik said:

Not at all, I am strictly working within the confines of mathematics. The number systems (base2, base3 and even base 10 in which we are used to counting) are mathematical devices created by US to allow for the understanding and realization of value, more specifically quantitative value. So in essence, these number systems are a type of Order created by man.

They are created but doesn't it in reality add up? If I have two apples how can they ever equate to 10? I mean I can say TYOK9= 1 Million but where is my proof in finite terms... or are you saying the results we come up with are not truth to begin with? Also how does this relate to there being no free will and or progression through life?

Now I am not trying to be condescending at all, but your above statement tells me that you...

a) Have no understanding of the various number systems other than Base₁₀.

or

b) Choose to feign ignorance of them.

You see, in Base₁₀, "10" means "ten" as most are used to counting, but 10₂ <-- base 2, is pronounced "one, zero" , but means the same as two, 2₁₀ <---base 10. The fact that YOU or others may not have known this does not mean that it isn't a reality, it is just beyond your perception. The same holds true for Divine Order. What you have to realize is that we are but a minuscule part of the whole, just as a virus or bacteria are but a minuscule part of us (Microcosm reflecting the Macrocosm). Just because we, in our limited understanding of the whole, cannot "perceive" what effect our choices, made through Free Will, have on the whole does not mean that our decisions are pointless and "predetermined". Cause and effect are always at play even if you do not notice the effect... That is a part of the "Order" of things.

Not taking sides... (Trying to be impartial, but when someone is wrong. ) You attempted to also attack a few religious "beliefs" by now choosing to adopt a scientific stance, however, your understanding of the science behind these also proves to be limited to "your" understanding.

Walking on Water... Physics does not make this an impossibility, insects, the Water Strider for example, are known to do it all the time. To accomplishthis, one must simply avoid breaking the surface tension of the water.

Virgin Birth... Surely you have heard of artificial insemination.

Raising someone from the dead... Hmm, CPR seems to do the trick to some degree.

Feeding of the Many with a loaf of bread... Grandma used to do it all the time ;D but keeping with science, there are now strains of "super wheat and corn" that can grow acres of food from a few kernels or dare I even suggest making fish soup from the fish oil, where does it say the size of the fish... <-- its a stretch.

My point here is that we may all be respectively limited in our ability to perceive those things beyond our understanding, but these things are still a possibility. And notice that I purposely avoided invoking the spiritual here because if our understanding of "Man's Science" is so limited, we can't even start to scratch the surface of whats possible through God's "Science" (the Divine).


Divine Order is beyond us... we are only viruses in this "body". You may decide to act on the "body" by attacking a cell in the kidney, but you have no idea that the body has a "system" in place to respond to your decision. Order is maintained, yet your decision did cause a response.

So, Divine Order or Free Will... I say both, however, we may only perceive and understand those things that affect us.

[Vudu_Prince]

Hot damn we got a live one...! I'm good at what I do.. Lemme finish my subway sammich and I will be right back.. I will use ED Lover's theme Cmon Son! lol

[Vudu_Prince]

Aug 14, 2009 0:43:40 GMT -5 Kryptik said:

Wow at all the above. You guys are really breaking this down.

Now, I myself love debate, but I feel that the sentiment below tells me why you, VP, have the stance that you do...

Now I am not trying to be condescending at all, but your above statement tells me that you...

a) Have no understanding of the various number systems other than Base₁₀.

or

b) Choose to feign ignorance of them.

Cmon Son! NOTHING in math is absolute nor finite and can NOT be proven in absolute terms. You messed up using math in the first place. Question has 2+2=4 ever been proven? lol Cmon Son....hell outta hea Take it off the paper and apply it to science. A cell can be one but also splits to two then 4 then 8 then back to one again. That alone destroys almost any mathematical system you can think of. CMON SON! lol

You see, in Base₁₀, "10" means "ten" as most are used to counting, but 10₂ <-- base 2, is pronounced "one, zero" , but means the same as two, 2₁₀ <---base 10. The fact that YOU or others may not have known this does not mean that it isn't a reality, it is just beyond your perception.

The different mathematical systems are creations used to provide empirical data for things we are conscious of but don't understand... It's not real homie. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one. You really think those calculations scientist come up with are truth? NO. How can one accuratly measuring anything when you don't know what tools were used in the design. If I gave you a rock could you accurately tell me how much it weighed if you were allowed to give only one answer? CMON SON! lol

The same holds true for Divine Order. What you have to realize is that we are but a minuscule part of the whole, just as a virus or bacteria are but a minuscule part of us (Microcosm reflecting the Macrocosm). Just because we, in our limited understanding of the whole, cannot "perceive" what effect our choices, made through Free Will, have on the whole does not mean that our decisions are pointless and "predetermined". Cause and effect are always at play even if you do not notice the effect... That is a part of the "Order" of things.

So you roll out different mathematical systems insinuate they are truth and then correlate that to Divine Order?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

Cmon Son! lol

Not taking sides... (Trying to be impartial, but when someone is wrong. ) You attempted to also attack a few religious "beliefs" by now choosing to adopt a scientific stance, however, your understanding of the science behind these also proves to be limited to "your" understanding.

Well were going to see down below aren't we? I tell ya adrenaline clouds judgment and clear thinking. Don't take this personal.

Walking on Water... Physics does not make this an impossibility, insects, the Water Strider for example, are known to do it all the time. To accomplishthis, one must simply avoid breaking the surface tension of the water.

So I say a HUMAN broke the laws of Physics by walking on water and you test my premise by not using a human but using an insect instead? An Insect? You are FLAGRANTLY using Sampling, Measurement, Procedural and Design BIAS. So if I say a Human who flies has broken the laws of Physics will your response be naw I'm wrong because an Eagle can fly? looooooooooooooool! CMON SON! fuck outta hea geez

Virgin Birth... Surely you have heard of artificial insemination.

Surely have and it breaks the laws of A & P. An example In-Vivo the mother destroys most if not all of the males mitochondrial DNA. This doesn't happen in-vitro during fertilization.... lol CMON SON! lol This to easy mang.

Raising someone from the dead... Hmm, CPR seems to do the trick to some degree.

Uh smdh sigh
lets go to the text for this one.
John 11:17 Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days
Show me where CPR has been done to revive someone who has been dead and buried for FOUR DAYS. yeah you know whats next... CMON SON! lol

Feeding of the Many with a loaf of bread... Grandma used to do it all the time ;D but keeping with science, there are now strains of "super wheat and corn" that can grow acres of food from a few kernels or dare I even suggest making fish soup from the fish oil, where does it say the size of the fish... <-- its a stretch.

The disciples who supposedly were there stated it wouldn't be enough. So what you saying Jesus put the fish in pots of water skimmed the juice off and gave people bread crumbs. Communion like a mofo huh? Hell to da shit naw. CMON SON! lol

My point here is that we may all be respectively limited in our ability to perceive those things beyond our understanding, but these things are still a possibility. And notice that I purposely avoided invoking the spiritual here because if our understanding of "Man's Science" is so limited, we can't even start to scratch the surface of whats possible through God's "Science" (the Divine).

I think I have reduced your entire premise to rubble. Seem like a smart guy but you swing wildly. You have just been baited. Try again and be more poignant next time so that your examples can be weight behind your words.

Divine Order is beyond us... we are only viruses in this "body". You may decide to act on the "body" by attacking a cell in the kidney, but you have no idea that the body has a "system" in place to respond to your decision. Order is maintained, yet your decision did cause a response. So, Divine Order or Free Will... I say both, however, we may only perceive and understand those things that affect us.

There is no free will if you cannot affect your outcome. Period. If the outcome is fixed it doesn't matter what happens in between. Take it or leave it.

Class Over