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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jul 30, 2009 21:15:27 GMT -5
Is it one or the other? Can they both coexist at the same time? What say you?
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Serenity
OOA pledge
[C01:9900CC]
Posts: 158
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Post by Serenity on Jul 31, 2009 17:21:11 GMT -5
Could it be that the decisions one makes as part of their free will to choose are actually part of the divine order after all? IDK
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 2, 2009 17:49:54 GMT -5
If it's free will...how do we account for DeJaVu?
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Aug 2, 2009 17:57:55 GMT -5
If it's free will...how do we account for DeJaVu? Deja vu, to me does not exist. Prophecy though? Yes. Prophecy can explain a lot of things. When dealing with them, God never reveals too much, as it would ruin the outcome. But God allows us free will to make our own decisions, but sometimes, He will tell you a little more about the movie during the previews, to help you get to the outcome of the movie without still knowing what's going to happen. Sorry if that one sentence was too long. |
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 2, 2009 18:05:50 GMT -5
If it's free will...how do we account for DeJaVu? Deja vu, to me does not exist. Prophecy though? Yes. Prophecy can explain a lot of things. When dealing with them, God never reveals too much, as it would ruin the outcome. But God allows us free will to make our own decisions, but sometimes, He will tell you a little more about the movie during the previews, to help you get to the outcome of the movie without still knowing what's going to happen. Sorry if that one sentence was too long. I used to have "past tense" DJV - where I'd remember after it happend...like "Hey, I said/did this before" but now I have "forward" DJV. While it occurs, I actually know what is going to be said and done BEFORE it is said and done. I have about a 4-6 second jump on it. I've also realized that, if I just relax and watch, the DJV lasts longer. When I reveal/acknowledge it...it goes away. |
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Aug 2, 2009 18:06:51 GMT -5
Deja vu, to me does not exist. Prophecy though? Yes. Prophecy can explain a lot of things. When dealing with them, God never reveals too much, as it would ruin the outcome. But God allows us free will to make our own decisions, but sometimes, He will tell you a little more about the movie during the previews, to help you get to the outcome of the movie without still knowing what's going to happen. Sorry if that one sentence was too long. I used to have "past tense" DJV - where I'd remember after it happend...like "Hey, I said/did this before" but now I have "forward" DJV. While it occurs, I actually know what is going to be said and done BEFORE it is said and done. I have about a 4-6 second jump on it. I've also realized that, if I just relax and watch, the DJV lasts longer. When I reveal/acknowledge it...it goes away. LOL! That's not DJV. If you need it further explained hit me up in PM.............................. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 2, 2009 22:08:25 GMT -5
If you believe is Prophecy then you have to believe in Deja Vu. Furthermore if one can have a prophesy about future events then that denotes time and all that happens is within a divine order which means there is no free will only an illusion of such. Basically no matter what decision you make the end result is already in place and will happen. Lets look at the macrocosm of life. No matter what decisions we make we all die in the end. All of us. Could this hold true for everything else. Before you answer take a moment and look at where you stand at this moment. Look at all the things you really covet. Now look back say 10-12 years at all of the decisions you made. Here is the kicker... look at the events that happened which were out of your control that influenced your decisions are decisions that were made for you... Then it becomes apparently obvious we are being taken for a ride...
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 2, 2009 23:30:44 GMT -5
I will hit you up, BUT...it feels EXACTLY like DJV. EXACTLY, except it is moving faster. I DO believe there is a grand scheme to my life and I feel HONORED that God would care enough about me to orchestrate my life.I COMPLETELY SEE THE TREES! because... l often look in lifes rear view mirror and the objects are truly closer than they appear.  I KNOW that the end result is not about ME - but I am humbled to be a ripple in this Universal Pond...when I pray for an extension of life - I promise God that I will try to make the biggest splash (have the biggest effect on the lives of others) that I can. So far, so good.  |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 3, 2009 23:34:54 GMT -5
I say both divine order and free will. I believe that though our ultimate destination may be known, the paths we may take to get there are always in our hands. Scientist used to try to evaluate the intelligence of mice by seeing how they navigate a maze, now the scientist knew that there was but one path through the maze but the test came in how the mouse "decided" to try to get to the end.
I believe that divine order does not dictate what we must do in life, but is a plan that has been conceived based on the decisions that we may make.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 4, 2009 1:13:32 GMT -5
I say both divine order and free will. I believe that though our ultimate destination may be known, the paths we may take to get there are always in our hands. Scientist used to try to evaluate the intelligence of mice by seeing how they navigate a maze, now the scientist knew that there was but one path through the maze but the test came in how the mouse "decided" to try to get to the end. I believe that divine order does not dictate what we must do in life, but is a plan that has been conceived based on the decisions that we may make. But are you really making a decision if the exit to the maze and whats there stays the same? Lets use Video Games as an example. Did you really beat the game at the end when you followed the rules? Is the glitcher better than the person who followed the rules as he/she can bend and or break the rules of the game. Go on top of buildings that aren't supposed to be assessable? Run through walls? Etc etc etc? Like does the Mouse have free will by finishing the maze even though there is a snake waiting at the end to kill it? Here is the kicker... If the mouse knew the snake was at the end would it try to find a way to glitch the maze so that it can find another route out past the snake? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 4, 2009 2:04:06 GMT -5
But are you really making a decision if the exit to the maze and whats there stays the same? Lets use Video Games as an example. Did you really beat the game at the end when you followed the rules? Is the glitcher better than the person who followed the rules as he/she can bend and or break the rules of the game. Go on top of buildings that aren't supposed to be assessable? Run through walls? Etc etc etc? Like does the Mouse have free will by finishing the maze even though there is a snake waiting at the end to kill it? Here is the kicker... If the mouse knew the snake was at the end would it try to find a way to glitch the maze so that it can find another route out past the snake? This would of course depend on the mouse's objective, or in life our own. If the mouse's only objective was to get to the "chesses" at the end of the maze, his first thought might be gnaw through the walls. Is this in valid decision? I say yes, if it might successfully lead to acquiring the "cheese". If the mouse were to see that it was impossible to gnaw through the walls or go above or below them, then he is faced with either trying to follow "the" path or ignore his desire for the cheese. If, as in your example, the mouse has a priori knowledge of what awaits him at the end of the path, a "snake", he could decide to "try" to defeat the system, however, if divine order is being observed it may have already been decided that the mouse and snake are to confront each other. In this scenario, the snake would have equal opportunity to traverse the maze and find the mouse. The mouse still decides "how" it is to meet its fate. Does it sit idly and wait for the snake to find it, or does it accept its fate to meet the snake and rush in on its own accord? This is how I view divine order? Our ultimate "destinations" may have been planned or known, but it is up to us which "shortcuts" or decisions we make along the way. "Life" to me lies not only in getting from point A to point B, but in the experience of the total trip. "LIFE is the LOVE of LIVING well..." -Me |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 4, 2009 2:22:49 GMT -5
But are you really making a decision if the exit to the maze and whats there stays the same? Lets use Video Games as an example. Did you really beat the game at the end when you followed the rules? Is the glitcher better than the person who followed the rules as he/she can bend and or break the rules of the game. Go on top of buildings that aren't supposed to be assessable? Run through walls? Etc etc etc? Like does the Mouse have free will by finishing the maze even though there is a snake waiting at the end to kill it? Here is the kicker... If the mouse knew the snake was at the end would it try to find a way to glitch the maze so that it can find another route out past the snake? This would of course depend on the mouse's objective, or in life our own. If the mouse's only objective was to get to the "chesses" at the end of the maze, his first thought might be gnaw through the walls. Is this in valid decision? I say yes, if it might successfully lead to acquiring the "cheese". If the mouse were to see that it was impossible to gnaw through the walls or go above or below them, then he is faced with either trying to follow "the" path or ignore his desire for the cheese. If, as in your example, the mouse has a priori knowledge of what awaits him at the end of the path, a "snake", he could decide to "try" to defeat the system, however, if divine order is being observed it may have already been decided that the mouse and snake are to confront each other. In this scenario, the snake would have equal opportunity to traverse the maze and find the mouse. The mouse still decides "how" it is to meet its fate. Does it sit idly and wait for the snake to find it, or does it accept its fate to meet the snake and rush in on its own accord? This is how I view divine order? Our ultimate "destinations" may have been planned or known, but it is up to us which "shortcuts" or decisions we make along the way. "Life" to me lies not only in getting from point A to point B, but in the experience of the total trip. "LIFE is the LOVE of LIVING well..." -Me That sounds good but if the end result is fixed and absolute does it matter what you do in between time? If you can't control the ends then who cares what "decisions" you makes during the means. So you are on the thought process that the ends justify the means when I feel the means should not only justify the ends but create the ends. |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 4, 2009 2:30:16 GMT -5
Actually I feel that the means are more important than the end. The "how" I become the next Bill Gates is more important to me than just becoming a Bill Gates. I want to successfully raise a family and be able to provide for their every need and most of their wants, but I like you and most others here feel that it is better to do that by getting an education and decent job as opposed to getting it by "any means necessary".
If I found out that I was going to die in a week, I could decide to sit in a room writing about the things that I have done, or I can go out and decide to experience all the things I haven't. Doesn't change the fact that I only have one week, but the experiences of that week would be dramatically different.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 4, 2009 9:58:59 GMT -5
Actually I feel that the means are more important than the end. The "how" I become the next Bill Gates is more important to me than just becoming a Bill Gates. I want to successfully raise a family and be able to provide for their every need and most of their wants, but I like you and most others here feel that it is better to do that by getting an education and decent job as opposed to getting it by "any means necessary". If I found out that I was going to die in a week, I could decide to sit in a room writing about the things that I have done, or I can go out and decide to experience all the things I haven't. Doesn't change the fact that I only have one week, but the experiences of that week would be dramatically different. Again what difference does HOW make if it is already determined WHAT you will become? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 4, 2009 11:44:20 GMT -5
Again what difference does HOW make if it is already determined WHAT you will become? I believe the HOW is what makes you who you ARE. Whatever you obtain or become is always affected by HOW you obtain it. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 4, 2009 12:28:21 GMT -5
Again what difference does HOW make if it is already determined WHAT you will become? I believe the HOW is what makes you who you ARE. Whatever you obtain or become is always affected by HOW you obtain it. If how truly makes you who you are then Divine Order doesn't exist. If Divine Order does exist then how really doesn't matter because the end result is fixed. Lets reference a video game again... no matter how good you are at it the makers of the game have written the ending to the game does it matter how well you do at it or when you finish it? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 4, 2009 12:41:44 GMT -5
Your gonna bring the "geek" out in me Vudu... LOL
Lets look at Mario Brothers for Nintendo, I am assuming we came up around the same time! LOL
Just about everybody I know eventually beat Mario Bros. They were all happy they "saved the Princess", the objective. But later on, people started asking whether or not you used the cheat to get "extra lives" to save the princess. In their mind, and mine, this took away from the accomplishment of beating the game.
Or, how about the secret warp zone on level one that allowed you to go directly to level 8. If you used this, you never get to see the "water world" or any of the other content. You satisfy divine order by saving the princess, but you get to "enjoy the game" by deciding to play through each colorful and adventurous level. ;D
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 4, 2009 12:47:02 GMT -5
Your gonna bring the "geek" out in me Vudu... LOL Lets look at Mario Brothers for Nintendo, I am assuming we came up around the same time! LOL Just about everybody I know eventually beat Mario Bros. They were all happy they "saved the Princess", the objective. But later on, people started asking whether or not you used the cheat to get "extra lives" to save the princess. In their mind, and mine, this took away from the accomplishment of beating the game. Or, how about the secret warp zone on level one that allowed you to go directly to level 8. If you used this, you never get to see the "water world" or any of the other content. You satisfy divine order by saving the princess, but you get to "enjoy the game" by deciding to play through each colorful and adventurous level. ;D But what if the Glitcher could go to parts of the game that wasn't accessible? When I use to play Socom I'd see dudes flying jumping from building embedded in walls sniping from Mountains and also being invisible meaning you'd just see their guns. What I'm saying is "enjoying" life means nothing if the ending is the same. Why can't we make our own ending? Better yet how can the absolute Macrocosm not affect the Microcosm? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 4, 2009 22:32:37 GMT -5
Okay, I think the issue here is that we are trying to simplify this to the most simple of cases. Lets look at it again, but this time from the perspective of the designer. As a engineer, it is my job to design a system to be capable of continuing to perform even in the face of anomalies. With computers, this may mean that I design a network with a certain degree of fault-tolerance allowing for "unexpected" events. If a network link goes down, their should be a backup path, if a hard disk fails the data should be backed up perhaps even to some remote site. The same stands for building a bridge, I have to account for traffic, weather, and a number of other factors. Now in a perfect world, the designer is able to take all of these things into account and thus realize a perfectly ordered system where "glitches" need never be a worry because all the possible "glitches" have been considered, but practicality does not allow this. The shear number of permutations of "possible" events could never practically be accounted for, however we still try to create systems capable of serving a purpose.
Now lets forget practicality, lets imagine a divine designer not bound by the limitations faced by man. This designer could then create a system taking into account EVERY possible factor that could affect it. The purpose of this system doesn't have to be getting those in the system from ONE point to another, but simply a system that allows those within it to travel however they choose.
(Running with the highway analogy here) If someone chose to drive the "wrong" direction, the system would have known that this was a possibility and adapt. If they hit another car, the system would adapt (Road cleanup, rerouting traffic, etc.). In this example, the system (highway) would represent divine order, while those that traveled along it would exercise their free will in every decision they made. In this way, the Microcosm can affect the Macrocosm (you decide to hit another car and you may slow the system down, but the system still continues because its designer knew this was a possibility) and the Macrocosm affects the Microcosm (the system's performance temporarily degrades slowing down the drivers, but the designer also knew this was a possibility).
Ultimately, we are free to travel as we wish in this system, free will, while the system continues to operate as it was meant to operate, divine order.
<--- Knows this might be slightly incoherent, but figured I would take a shot at it before getting back to work.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 5, 2009 2:27:53 GMT -5
See I don't feel you can have both. If you are not or can not determine your ending then you don't have free will. No matter how you try to spin it.
How many times will we have to do things that while in the moment we either feel we have did them before or we feel it was a preplanned event that our lives are following a script?
If the Macrocosm is absolute then so to is the microcosm in my eyes. When I look back on my life at events that were out of my control which if had not happened I wouldn't have did lots of things that were and are vital to who I am as a person I know I'm following a script.
This is how prophets are able to see because existence in this state is fixed and absolute and therefore they have found a way to channel into the "future" to see events that in theory have already happened we are just not conscious of them yet. Do you realize the brain processed an estimated 400 Billion bits of information per second and we are only aware of 2000 bits per second. That is a HUGE delay. Basically you could live for a second and die and have more information stored for 3 million lifetimes. Yeah its really that deep.
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Post by nsync on Aug 5, 2009 6:18:36 GMT -5
Excellent question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have wondered this so many times myself.
The brain is that deep. Actually it's deeper than that deep.
But this is kinda off the exact topic. So like I had this allergic reaction. And all day I would just sit around and committ to not scratching so it would go away faster(which I wasn't so great at).Sometimes I would do really well. But at night my brain would convince me to scratch.
REAL TALK!
I would dream of reasons that I must scratch and why it was important to scratch. I would wake up in the middle of the night my entire body scratched.... frustrated like a mug saying...dang it my brain has deceived me again. LOL
I just thought...I'd share that with you all. lolol
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Post by nsync on Aug 5, 2009 6:25:17 GMT -5
If there is no free will then folks with addictions should be looked at differently.
Actually, let me see how free will is fully defined before I continue further in this thread.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 5, 2009 7:32:51 GMT -5
Even our imperfections are apart of this order of things. Drug Abuse, Suicides, Death, all of that. My grandmother was a heavy smoker and coffee drinker she died of cancer... if not her son wouldve never sought to get closer to his father at the age of 34. Eventually moved his family to NY. So many things that have happened to me my brothers my mother that would've never happened if not for my grandmothers death. I would have grown up in Florida the entire time instead of moving to NYC at 14. Grandma died at 7 moved to NY at 14 and my GF was pregnant with our first child 7 years later when I'm 21. The cold vein is the same month I moved to NY as a 14 yearold is the same month my gf got pregnant. The math of this I just realized too when I thought about. Kinda crazy but defiantly more than a coinkydink.
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 5, 2009 11:18:56 GMT -5
^^ Piggyback...
I have SO many patterns laid out in my rear view mirror of life it ain't even funny!!
I've seen chaotic randomness become PURPOSEFUL orchestrated order.
Question:
Do WE manufacture these "order of things" OR are they real and we have to gain the wisdom and insight to see them??
I mean, I've began to base my life around this!!
When something WAY out of order happens - I often "TRUST" that it may not make sense NOW but it will LATER - "God ain't brought me this far to drop me off here" type thing.
I mean, when I see more than 3 signs/arrows/happenings STRONGLY steering me in a direction (even if it's not completely where I want to go/road I want to take to get there) I literally put my shit in neutral and coast.
But again...using hindsight, do we find rhyme and reason or is it truly there???
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Aug 5, 2009 11:30:08 GMT -5
If you believe is Prophecy then you have to believe in Deja Vu. Furthermore if one can have a prophesy about future events then that denotes time and all that happens is within a divine order which means there is no free will only an illusion of such. Basically no matter what decision you make the end result is already in place and will happen. Lets look at the macrocosm of life. No matter what decisions we make we all die in the end. All of us. Could this hold true for everything else. Before you answer take a moment and look at where you stand at this moment. Look at all the things you really covet. Now look back say 10-12 years at all of the decisions you made. Here is the kicker... look at the events that happened which were out of your control that influenced your decisions are decisions that were made for you... Then it becomes apparently obvious we are being taken for a ride... Not necessarily. Prophecy isn't used to predict the future. It's used to give warning and to let the person get they act together. sometimes even IF the prophecy is given, it's up to the person to use it. Depending on how they heed the prophecy two outcomes can happen. If they take heed, then what was told will come to pass, if they don't, it'll still come to pass but it was a bad decision on their part to not take heed. Either way the prophecy, if from a true prophet will come to pass. We still use our free will to do what we want, whether it goes for or against what was told. So no, I DO NOT believe in deja vu. Prophecy however like I said yes, because everyone has a prophetic moment. |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 6, 2009 0:02:39 GMT -5
@vp
What I have been trying to say is the opposite of what you're saying VP. I do not believe that the outcomes of one's life have already been decided, we have complete free will over what these will be. I believe that the system in which we live and interact is behaving in a predefined manner. Its like the english language. I nor you know EVERY single possible word that will ever be used, however, the system of letters that we use was created or adapted to allow for the many uses that we may find (think about ebonics! lol).
Divine Order establishes that everything and EVERY possibility is affected by EVERY event that may take place. This is the billion... trillion...no, "googaplex" of possibilities that our decisions may affect. Our decisions have a very real affect on ourselves and those around us, but divine order IMO is not set up to define who we are, what we are, or how we do what we do, but simply the substrate in which we make the decisions.
Here is a simple programming example that may help solidify my theory:
A program to decide who, between VP and Kryptik, responds to this post the most...
1. Set VP responses = 0
2. Set Krytpik responses =0
3. Check for Responses
4. If VP responds, add 1 to VP responses
5. If Kryptik responds, add 1 to Kryptik responses
6. GOTO 3. (This would repeat infinitely)
This pseudo-program would continuously count up the number of times we responded to this post. Divine Order IS the program. The program does not dictate or even care if you decide to post or not, it only responds to you posting by incrementing the respective value. Cause and Effect. If I decide not to post, the program simply won't take account of that but it will still continue to run and keep track of your posts. "Order" is maintained as long as the system has accounted for the chance that either of us MAY post.
As for prophecies, I believe that certain "qualifiers" are also in play here. Without making this a question of faith, I believe that I can say that prophecies are always "possible" IF the qualifiers occur. I could easily prophesy that "if you keep walking toward the pool without stopping, you will soon find yourself wet". I do believe that the prophets of the bible, were special. Their being anointed by God, and having a direct understanding of Divine Order, allowed them to make "divine prophecies" just as I, an engineer, can make a predictions about how long a light bulb will last based on scientific "order" .
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 6, 2009 6:46:01 GMT -5
@vp What I have been trying to say is the opposite of what you're saying VP. I do not believe that the outcome s of one's life have already been decided, we have complete free will over what these will be. I believe that the system in which we live and interact is behaving in a predefined manner. Its like the english language. I nor you know EVERY single possible word that will ever be used, however, the system of letters that we use was created or adapted to allow for the many uses that we may find (think about ebonics! lol). Divine Order establishes that everything and EVERY possibility is affected by EVERY event that may take place. This is the billion... trillion...no, "googaplex" of possibilities that our decisions may affect. Our decisions have a very real affect on ourselves and those around us, but divine order IMO is not set up to define who we are, what we are, or how we do what we do, but simply the substrate in which we make the decisions. Here is a simple programming example that may help solidify my theory: A program to decide who, between VP and Kryptik, responds to this post the most... 1. Set VP responses = 0 2. Set Krytpik responses =0 3. Check for Responses 4. If VP responds, add 1 to VP responses 5. If Kryptik responds, add 1 to Kryptik responses 6. GOTO 3. (This would repeat infinitely) This pseudo-program would continuously count up the number of times we responded to this post. Divine Order IS the program. The program does not dictate or even care if you decide to post or not, it only responds to you posting by incrementing the respective value. Cause and Effect. If I decide not to post, the program simply won't take account of that but it will still continue to run and keep track of your posts. "Order" is maintained as long as the system has accounted for the chance that either of us MAY post. As for prophecies, I believe that certain "qualifiers" are also in play here. Without making this a question of faith, I believe that I can say that prophecies are always "possible" IF the qualifiers occur. I could easily prophesy that "if you keep walking toward the pool without stopping, you will soon find yourself wet". I do believe that the prophets of the bible, were special. Their being anointed by God, and having a direct understanding of Divine Order, allowed them to make "divine prophecies" just as I, an engineer, can make a predictions about how long a light bulb will last based on scientific "order" . damn this ninja has went visual basic on me. lol Hell Naw. I'll be back later to add. Actually got chit to do today. |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 6, 2009 19:30:14 GMT -5
LMAO!!! I told ya you would "bring out the geek"!  |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 7, 2009 8:52:23 GMT -5
Damie's definition:
Free Will: The ability to decide something
Divine Order: The knowledge of the sum total of all free wills and their subsequent consequences
I don't think the concepts are incompatible, they're just incompatible within a human being.
More later
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 7, 2009 9:28:39 GMT -5
Yeah that has to be your definition for sure bruh. Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order.
Free Will is an existence where there isn't a future everything is predicated on the here and now and your actions decide what will happen next.
Can't really ride the fence on this one.
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