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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 10, 2009 10:58:32 GMT -5
Yeah that has to be your definition for sure bruh. Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order. Free Will is an existence where there isn't a future everything is predicated on the here and now and your actions decide what will happen next. Can't really ride the fence on this one.
Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order.
Really? That's not how Thomas Jones described it. We can still debate the concept regardless of what you call it - we just have to agree to what IT is FIRST. If you wanna cite a source on your definition - feel free. If you just want to roll with your definition - no problem. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 10, 2009 14:23:31 GMT -5
Well explain how can something be of Divine Origin but at the same time be affected by humans? If Divine Order exist isn't that predicated upon it being manifested by a "creator"? If Divine Order is affected by us then you are saying one of two things.. Either A- Order isn't Divine at all or B- Man is "God" in someways and is able to affect what "God" has created and designed. Which one shall you choose or will you "create" a third option. lol
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 10, 2009 21:02:28 GMT -5
Well explain how can something be of Divine Origin but at the same time be affected by humans? If Divine Order exist isn't that predicated upon it being manifested by a "creator"? If Divine Order is affected by us then you are saying one of two things.. Either A- Order isn't Divine at all or B- Man is "God" in someways and is able to affect what "God" has created and designed. Which one shall you choose or will you "create" a third option. lol
Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order.
If you agree (and you should - it was your definition) then we can start |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 1:03:23 GMT -5
Well explain how can something be of Divine Origin but at the same time be affected by humans? If Divine Order exist isn't that predicated upon it being manifested by a "creator"? If Divine Order is affected by us then you are saying one of two things.. Either A- Order isn't Divine at all or B- Man is "God" in someways and is able to affect what "God" has created and designed. Which one shall you choose or will you "create" a third option. lol
Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order.
If you agree (and you should - it was your definition) then we can startI surely do. So give us your spill... See if you can finally "truly" win a debate against me. I'm waiting. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2009 13:16:46 GMT -5
No doubt we can discuss it. Let's just start with the ground work. Do we agree to use the following as the definition of Divine Order:
Divine Order is a predetermined arrangement by the designer. There is no input from adherents of the order.
If you agree (and you should - it was your definition) then we can start I surely do. So give us your spill... See if you can finally "truly" win a debate against me. I'm waiting.
So if there is Divine Order, there is a designer. Is it your contention that there IS in fact a designer/designers for the universe we live - or that there is no designer? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 11, 2009 13:22:33 GMT -5
I am quite interested to see where this will lead.
As for the definition of Divine Order, can it also be accepted that order does not necessarily imply "what" will happen but "how" it will happen? More explicitly, Order defines how objects in a system will interact with the other objects in the system.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 14:41:00 GMT -5
I surely do. So give us your spill... See if you can finally "truly" win a debate against me. I'm waiting.
So if there is Divine Order, there is a designer. Is it your contention that there IS in fact a designer/designers for the universe we live - or that there is no designer? There has to be designers because spontaneous generation has been debunked. So whats your spill? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2009 14:54:52 GMT -5
LOL not trying to win - just not trying to have a steeplechase for words and their meanings masquerading as a debate.
So if there is Divine Order, there is a designer. Is it your contention that there IS in fact a designer/designers for the universe we live - or that there is no designer? There has to be designers because spontaneous generation has been debunked. So whats your spill? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 15:08:00 GMT -5
There has to be designers because spontaneous generation has been debunked. So whats your spill? How is there a difference? Lets use math.. 3 +1 = 4 2+2= 4 4+0= 4 8-4=4 6-2=4 So did the arbitrary numbers mean anything in the grand scheme of things? How can the way you do something mean anything if the result will be the same? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2009 15:12:20 GMT -5
Something along the lines of what Kryptic just said. Is the pre-arranged order in your divine order related to how something happens or the fact that it will happen or is it both? Cause there is a difference between the two in my mind How is there a difference? Lets use math.. 3 +1 = 4 2+2= 4 4+0= 4 8-4=4 6-2=4 So did the arbitrary numbers mean anything in the grand scheme of things? How can the way you do something mean anything if the result will be the same? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 15:44:17 GMT -5
Surely am unless we are the creators of everything we see
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2009 16:41:01 GMT -5
Free Will is an existence where there isn't a future everything is predicated on the here and now and your actions decide what will happen next.
Ok but this is how you defined Free will. Do your actions NOT decide what will happen next?
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 11, 2009 17:30:40 GMT -5
How is there a difference? Lets use math.. 3 +1 = 4 2+2= 4 4+0= 4 8-4=4 6-2=4 So did the arbitrary numbers mean anything in the grand scheme of things? How can the way you do something mean anything if the result will be the same? Sorry for the late reply... Is a 1 ton elephant heavier than a 2 ounce mouse. Your assumption would presume YES based on the numbers, but the truth is that it would depend on the system in which you took the measurement. In a gravity free environment, they would both weigh the SAME, zero. The Order or Divine Order that I am suggesting would merely define the conditions in which we performed the test. All POSSIBLE outcomes are dependent upon the system, but THE outcome is not explicitly defined by the system. The "system" is "order". Using this analogy, I would have to agree that free will cannot change the system. Free will is however "constrained", but not necessarily "controlled", by Divine Order. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 21:04:08 GMT -5
Free Will is an existence where there isn't a future everything is predicated on the here and now and your actions decide what will happen next.Ok but this is how you defined Free will. Do your actions NOT decide what will happen next? Nope. surely don't. Next question. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 11, 2009 21:05:53 GMT -5
How is there a difference? Lets use math.. 3 +1 = 4 2+2= 4 4+0= 4 8-4=4 6-2=4 So did the arbitrary numbers mean anything in the grand scheme of things? How can the way you do something mean anything if the result will be the same? Sorry for the late reply... Is a 1 ton elephant heavier than a 2 ounce mouse. Your assumption would presume YES based on the numbers, but the truth is that it would depend on the system in which you took the measurement. In a gravity free environment, they would both weigh the SAME, zero. The Order or Divine Order that I am suggesting would merely define the conditions in which we performed the test. All POSSIBLE outcomes are dependent upon the system, but THE outcome is not explicitly defined by the system. The "system" is "order". Using this analogy, I would have to agree that free will cannot change the system. Free will is however "constrained", but not necessarily "controlled", by Divine Order. Ummm your correlation was off base. How can you correlate the weights between two animals with a simple math equation. Better yet show in what system where 2+2 DOESN'T = 4. 3+1 doesn't = 4 4+0= doesn't equal 4 |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2009 22:07:14 GMT -5
Free Will is an existence where there isn't a future everything is predicated on the here and now and your actions decide what will happen next.Ok but this is how you defined Free will. Do your actions NOT decide what will happen next? Nope. surely don't. Next question. |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 12, 2009 2:31:54 GMT -5
Ummm your correlation was off base. How can you correlate the weights between two animals with a simple math equation. Better yet show in what system where 2+2 DOESN'T = 4. 3+1 doesn't = 4 4+0= doesn't equal 4 Well, since you mentioned Visual Basic earlier, in the binary counting "system" 1+1 !=(not equal) 2 but 1+1= 10, just like in base 4, 3+1=10 and in the octal system 4+4=10. Again, the number system, "Order", does not define WHAT we use the numbers for, but HOW we use and perceive them. (It may seem like a stretch, but I think it works. ;D) |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 12, 2009 12:09:32 GMT -5
Nope. surely don't. Next question. Yup you got it. It's really cut and dry. Even my response was predetermined and if you look deep enough you could know what I was gonna say before I was gonna say it... damn did I just have an Xzibit moment? lol |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 12, 2009 12:35:59 GMT -5
Ummm your correlation was off base. How can you correlate the weights between two animals with a simple math equation. Better yet show in what system where 2+2 DOESN'T = 4. 3+1 doesn't = 4 4+0= doesn't equal 4 Well, since you mentioned Visual Basic earlier, in the binary counting "system" 1+1 !=(not equal) 2 but 1+1= 10, just like in base 4, 3+1=10 and in the octal system 4+4=10. Again, the number system, "Order", does not define WHAT we use the numbers for, but HOW we use and perceive them. (It may seem like a stretch, but I think it works. ;D) Hmmmm interesting. So in program language you set you codify the parameters to meet your needs. So basically in order for you to make 1+1 not equal you had to take it outside the confines of mathematics. Correct? |
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 12, 2009 15:59:23 GMT -5
Well, since you mentioned Visual Basic earlier, in the binary counting "system" 1+1 !=(not equal) 2 but 1+1= 10, just like in base 4, 3+1=10 and in the octal system 4+4=10. Again, the number system, "Order", does not define WHAT we use the numbers for, but HOW we use and perceive them. (It may seem like a stretch, but I think it works. ;D) Hmmmm interesting. So in program language you set you codify the parameters to meet your needs. So basically in order for you to make 1+1 not equal you had to take it outside the confines of mathematics. Correct? Not at all, I am strictly working within the confines of mathematics. The number systems (base2, base3 and even base 10 in which we are used to counting) are mathematical devices created by US to allow for the understanding and realization of value, more specifically quantitative value. So in essence, these number systems are a type of Order created by man. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 12, 2009 22:34:54 GMT -5
Hmmmm interesting. So in program language you set you codify the parameters to meet your needs. So basically in order for you to make 1+1 not equal you had to take it outside the confines of mathematics. Correct? Not at all, I am strictly working within the confines of mathematics. The number systems (base2, base3 and even base 10 in which we are used to counting) are mathematical devices created by US to allow for the understanding and realization of value, more specifically quantitative value. So in essence, these number systems are a type of Order created by man. They are created but doesn't it in reality add up? If I have two apples how can they ever equate to 10? I mean I can say TYOK9= 1 Million but where is my proof in finite terms... or are you saying the results we come up with are not truth to begin with? Also how does this relate to there being no free will and or progression through life? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 13, 2009 6:46:44 GMT -5
So for example... you were destined to answer my post... you didn't decide to do it - it was predetermined - even as you were typing your post you had no input? Yup you got it. It's really cut and dry. Even my response was predetermined and if you look deep enough you could know what I was gonna say before I was gonna say it... damn did I just have an Xzibit moment? lol |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 13, 2009 8:52:23 GMT -5
Yup you got it. It's really cut and dry. Even my response was predetermined and if you look deep enough you could know what I was gonna say before I was gonna say it... damn did I just have an Xzibit moment? lol Damie everything is predetermined. We live in a delay a huge delay. Nothing happens in real time not even in a split second. Some of us try to step around this delay. When you hear the saying thinking or stepping outsid eof the box or the matrix this is what it is alluding to. Yes even the smallest conversations I for a moment feel I have had them before. The smallest actions I have felt like I carried them out prior. Even as a child I felt like my life was scripted. Again its really cut and dry. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 13, 2009 11:20:40 GMT -5
Does this apply to your thoughts too? Are they also predetermined (just making sure there aren't any caveats - technically a thought is an action so based on what you said it should also be pre-determined) Damie everything is predetermined. We live in a delay a huge delay. Nothing happens in real time not even in a split second. Some of us try to step around this delay. When you hear the saying thinking or stepping outsid eof the box or the matrix this is what it is alluding to. Yes even the smallest conversations I for a moment feel I have had them before. The smallest actions I have felt like I carried them out prior. Even as a child I felt like my life was scripted. Again its really cut and dry. |
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Post by nsync on Aug 13, 2009 11:37:59 GMT -5
checkmate
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 13, 2009 11:45:15 GMT -5
Damie everything is predetermined. We live in a delay a huge delay. Nothing happens in real time not even in a split second. Some of us try to step around this delay. When you hear the saying thinking or stepping outsid eof the box or the matrix this is what it is alluding to. Yes even the smallest conversations I for a moment feel I have had them before. The smallest actions I have felt like I carried them out prior. Even as a child I felt like my life was scripted. Again its really cut and dry. [/quote] I guess that convo still stings huh? Lets get a recap of my thoughts then... Well I'm staying within the bounds of the topic. If you have an Opposite it has to be absolute to be an opposite. Straw man here What is the opposite of Day.... Night is. Complete opposite. What is the opposite of Heads? Tails complete opposite. So when you have something that is the complete opposite then it is perfect within its construct. Out of bounds would be that Satan doesn't exist. Next Question. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 13, 2009 11:58:06 GMT -5
Damie everything is predetermined. We live in a delay a huge delay. Nothing happens in real time not even in a split second. Some of us try to step around this delay. When you hear the saying thinking or stepping outsid eof the box or the matrix this is what it is alluding to. Yes even the smallest conversations I for a moment feel I have had them before. The smallest actions I have felt like I carried them out prior. Even as a child I felt like my life was scripted. Again its really cut and dry. I guess that convo still stings huh? Lets get a recap of my thoughts then... Well I'm staying within the bounds of the topic. If you have an Opposite it has to be absolute to be an opposite. Straw man here What is the opposite of Day.... Night is. Complete opposite. What is the opposite of Heads? Tails complete opposite. So when you have something that is the complete opposite then it is perfect within its construct. Out of bounds would be that Satan doesn't exist. Next Question.
Based on what you're saying now - you're suggesting it was a hypothetical. Were you also hypothetically an adherant to ODU-IFA or do you actually subscribe to it? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 13, 2009 12:29:31 GMT -5
So when you argued that Satan gave man free will, that was not a sincere argument but a hypothetical one? I guess that convo still stings huh? Lets get a recap of my thoughts then... Out of bounds would be that Satan doesn't exist. Next Question.
Based on what you're saying now - you're suggesting it was a hypothetical. Were you also hypothetically an adherant to ODU-IFA or do you actually subscribe to it? ODU is an Oracle IFA is a system. I deal with neither. I read up on and study Vudu. Maybe you need to go and read everything I have stated. Seems as if you are attempting to do the reach back method... not gonna work.. Vudu already said there are those amongst us who seek to rebel the order of things. Glitch the system. Destroy the Matrix. Seeking true free will and not an illusion. Attempt to basically do the impossible. But in a sense you really don't know if you are making progress as you are possibly going down the path of a fail safe within this construction. Where I stand is Cut and dry bruh. Now say what you gonna say and be done with it. Furthermore if you believe in Jesus etc etc and believe in Divine Order then how can you feel what you do matters. I mean so you feel you have the power to change Jesus mind on something? It is my belief that this madness we call life is set up in every way to make it work. Even if you think you are making the choice to turn right are you really? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Aug 13, 2009 12:44:04 GMT -5
You said you're beginning to wonder if I were apart of that debate huh? You think the same as well for when it was shown you were flagrantly wrong as in concern to Solomon within the story being the Lilly of the Valley and the Rose of Sharon? lol Damie you have never came close to seeing me in any debate we have had on this board. You may change that today or maybe not... it has already happened lets see if you can figure it out before the finite truth of this present exchange manifest itself.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 13, 2009 14:31:52 GMT -5
LOL - cut and dry is it? Here's what I'll say in response. You've said alot, and answered alot of questions. I thank you for that. We already knew we wouldn't agree but this exercise was still useful.
You said everything is pre-determined. I don't think that's necessarily true. But if you believe it, then you have a problem. It doesn't matter how you or I or anyone tries to slice it, thinking is an input to the realilty you experience. The only way to satisfy your constraint that man has no input into the system is to prevent thought. If you can't think, you can't even express a belief...
...and you are expressing belief aren't you? 
Anyway...
You are free (like everyone else) to subscribe to whatever you like based on whatever you like. I have no great motivation to pick apart what you chose to believe just because I don't share your view. What I believe is sufficient to stand up on it's own.
[glow=gold,2,300]P.S. You are indeed correct. I did err in associating the Rose of Sharon with Jesus (in the context that I did). . [/glow]
There. There's no way anyone can miss that cause I have bolded it, underlined it, and super-sized it.
Don't worry I'm not going to waste time calling you on yours. For one, attacks on Christanity only makes the resolve of the adherants stronger, and thus the body stronger. That would be a perfect example of Thomas Jones view of Divine Order. For second, people are perfectly capable of reading and seeing EXACTLY what went on. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. In that I am confident. Roo.
*Handshake*
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