Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 14:44:36 GMT -5
Okay, here we go again. WHAT does "Let a woman be a woman and let a man be a man" really mean?  I don't know how others would define this, but I know what my grandmother meant when she gave me that advice. She meant, allow my man to be chivalrous. If he wants to open doors for me - let him, don't say "I can open my own door". If he wants to walk on the street side of the sidewalk as we walk side by side - let him, don't say, "That's not necessary". If he wants to work a few extra hours to buy me a surprise gift from his own funds, rather than taking from the joint account - let him, don't complain about him working longer and tell him it's silly because we already have the money. If he respectfully ask that you not wear the backless dress with the deeply plunging neckline to the company party where all the world can see your goodies (his goodies) - respect that, don't come with the, "I'm a grown A$$ woman, I can wear what I want" mess. If he lovingly expresses concern over me being out late for safety reasons - let him and express appreciation for his care, don't come with the "Don't worry about me, I can take care of myself" foolishness. Stop reminding him of how independent you are without him and let him care for you. These are a few examples. These examples are in the context of a healthy marriage, not a negative extreme where the brother is overly possessive. And in no way did my grandmother's words pertain to "outdated gender roles" or scenarios where women aren't "allowed" to spend money without permission, go out with friends, or that kind of thing. I think that what a lot of women miss is that we have to respect our men, just as we want them to respect us. I ask and expect things from my husband and he delivers, so why should I not do the same? |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 14:46:47 GMT -5
I'd say the same way a non-feminist honors her man and show's he's respected.  Or hell, the way PEOPLE honor PEOPLE and show respect. *listening to him *being a friend *doing sweet, thoughtful things (buying little gifts, saving books, articles or whatever you know he'd like) *calling him and letting him you know he's on your mind *taking him out to dinner *treating him with dignity and respect *We willing to sacrifice at times *being mindful of the person's wants, quirks, etc. These are just off the top of my head. And I think they are mutual; I expect the same things in return. |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 14:47:22 GMT -5
...and I don't care how independent, liberated, feministic a woman is if she WANTS a man (NOT NEED) and want to KEEP her man she MUST let her man feel needed. Sure, we are a new breed, a new generation and women have come a VERY long way but traditions die hard. Men and women still have roles. Now whether we chose to ACCEPT these roles is a different story. I consider myself a "modern" woman with traditional values. I don't mind "keeping" house. But my man knowing that I am who I am know that I REALLY appreciate when he does those lil' things to help me out because he knows I can do it myself. He recognizes the "modern woman" I am but I still do some traditonal things to make him feel like "The Man." I like to feel special and I do when he open my car door, come to my car after I get home to help me with the bags or carry the heavy stuff. I was single for years prior to him and in most instances had to do those things for myself. We've learned to compliment each other while not stepping on each other's toes. That is key!! IMO...
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 14:51:20 GMT -5
Okay, here we go again. WHAT does "Let a woman be a woman and let a man be a man" really mean? I don't know how others would define this, but I know what my grandmother meant when she gave me that advice. She meant, allow my man to be chivalrous. If he wants to open doors for me - let him, don't say "I can open my own door". If he wants to walk on the street side of the sidewalk as we walk side by side - let him, don't say, "That's not necessary". If he wants to work a few extra hours to buy me a surprise gift from his own funds, rather than taking from the joint account - let him, don't complain about him working longer and tell him it's silly because we already have the money. If he respectfully ask that you not wear the backless dress with the deeply plunging neckline to the company party where all the world can see your goodies (his goodies) - respect that, don't come with the, "I'm a grown A$$ woman, I can wear what I want" mess. If he lovingly expresses concern over me being out late for safety reasons - let him and express appreciation for his care, don't come with the "Don't worry about me, I can take care of myself" foolishness. Stop reminding him of how independent you are without him and let him care for you. These are a few examples. These examples are in the context of a healthy marriage, not a negative extreme where the brother is overly possessive. And in no way did my grandmother's words pertain to "outdated gender roles" or scenarios where women aren't "allowed" to spend money without permission, go out with friends, or that kind of thing. I think that what a lot of women miss is that we have to respect our men, just as we want them to respect us. I ask and expect things from my husband and he delivers, so why should I not do the same? Co Signs!!! |
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Serenity
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Posts: 158
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 14:55:53 GMT -5
That's not what I meant. My response has less to do with roles in the household and more with the way an "independent" woman treats her husband. As I stated earlier, because both me and my husband work outside the home, our roles are not "traditional". He does most of the cooking. I pay the bills and manage the household finances, because I am better at it than he is. There are other things I could list, but I am going to stop with those roles, since that is really not the issue for me. I still respect him as head of the household and he respects me as his helper. When a woman allows her independence to affect how she treats her husband, that's a problem. Some women have a problem making that distinction and they treat their husbands badly, just because they can do for themselves and don't necessarily need their husbands. It's the "I don't need you" attitude that sometimes accompanies "feminism gone wrong" to which I am referring. Trust me, I am appreciative of the strides that have been made to give women equal access to opportunities in our country. Co-sign! |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 15:02:03 GMT -5
...and I don't care how independent, liberated, feministic a woman is if she WANTS a man (NOT NEED) and want to KEEP her man she MUST let her man feel needed. Sure, we are a new breed, a new generation and women have come a VERY long way but traditions die hard. Men and women still have roles But aren't there women who do those things, and the man still rolls out? Also, is it fair to still assign "roles" in this day and age when the man's role traditionally was to "earn a paycheck" and the woman's role was to "keep house"? If both are working 40+ hours a week, why should the woman be EXPECTED (it's a difference if it's what she wants to do) to stick with traditional gender roles? The last thing I'd want to do is work all day, pick up the kids, cook, scrub toilets, mop, check homework and give baths while the man is sitting there watching the news. |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 15:03:18 GMT -5
I know and know of quite a few women that have it all and are MISERABLE because they let their status and success get the best of him. Come home daily driving a phat azz car to a 4 bedroom house and it's just them and maybe a pet *smh* In most cases I I KNOW dudes are checking for them but they don't give them the time of day because "he is not on her level" -GTFOOHWTBS!!! It amazes me when she didn't even get to KNOW the brother cause she couldn't get past what she "saw" or thought. My mother always told me, "You can't judge a book by it's cover. If you open it, it may be one of the best books you EVER read!!!"
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Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 15:03:30 GMT -5
...and I don't care how independent, liberated, feministic a woman is if she WANTS a man (NOT NEED) and want to KEEP her man she MUST let her man feel needed. Sure, we are a new breed, a new generation and women have come a VERY long way but traditions die hard. Men and women still have roles. Now whether we chose to ACCEPT these roles is a different story. I consider myself a "modern" woman with traditional values. I don't mind "keeping" house. But my man knowing that I am who I am know that I REALLY appreciate when he does those lil' things to help me out because he knows I can do it myself. He recognizes the "modern woman" I am but I still do some traditonal things to make him feel like "The Man." I like to feel special and I do when he open my car door, come to my car after I get home to help me with the bags or carry the heavy stuff. I was single for years prior to him and in most instances had to do those things for myself. We've learned to compliment each other while not stepping on each other's toes. That is key!! IMO... Exactly! I was a single parent for years before I married. I did everything to care for my child and I with no help from any man. At times it was a struggle, but I didn't let that make me bitter against men, nor did I become so feminist that I developed that "I don't need a man" mentality. That struggle made me appreciate all that my husband does for us. Yes, I can do it on my own, but I so appreciate his assistance and I let him know that. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 12, 2008 15:05:08 GMT -5
I'd say the same way a non-feminist honors her man and show's he's respected. Or hell, the way PEOPLE honor PEOPLE and show respect. *listening to him *being a friend *doing sweet, thoughtful things (buying little gifts, saving books, articles or whatever you know he'd like) *calling him and letting him you know he's on your mind *taking him out to dinner *treating him with dignity and respect *We willing to sacrifice at times *being mindful of the person's wants, quirks, etc. These are just off the top of my head. And I think they are mutual; I expect the same things in return.
LOL @ listening. Was listening optional in a relationship? LOL. |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 15:09:22 GMT -5
...and I don't care how independent, liberated, feministic a woman is if she WANTS a man (NOT NEED) and want to KEEP her man she MUST let her man feel needed. Sure, we are a new breed, a new generation and women have come a VERY long way but traditions die hard. Men and women still have roles But aren't there women who do those things, and the man still rolls out? Also, is it fair to still assign "roles" in this day and age when the man's role traditionally was to "earn a paycheck" and the woman's role was to "keep house"? If both are working 40+ hours a week, why should the woman be EXPECTED (it's a difference if it's what she wants to do) to stick with traditional gender roles? The last thing I'd want to do is work all day, pick up the kids, cook, scrub toilets, mop, check homework and give baths while the man is sitting there watching the news. As for the man rolling out, NOTHING in life is guaranteed!! And I'm not saying roles are assigned- but we do have roles as men and as women. Like I said, if we CHOOSE to accept them that's a different story. I don't know about you but the last thing I'd want to do is work all day and come home and fix the dish washer, or powerwash and stain the deck. I'm just saying there are certain things we do as women and certain things they do as men. Things/responsibilities can be shared but there are certain things that I probably won't do if a man is present ESPECIALLY if he wants to do it for me. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 15:10:08 GMT -5
Damie, what EXACTLY were you referring to? I might just e-mail the question to my boo and let him answer it.  How often do these things need to be done? I've only needed my dishwasher fixed ONCE in six years. And just because someone is a man, doesn't mean he knows how to fix stuff. But there are happy single folks. And unhappy married folks, too! *SIGH*...here we go again. Being a FEMINIST has nothing to do with an "I don't need a man" attitude or being "bitter" towards men. I think I'm about to gracefully bow out of this discussion, because it's getting nowhere and I feel as if I'm repeating myself. |
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Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 15:10:39 GMT -5
...and I don't care how independent, liberated, feministic a woman is if she WANTS a man (NOT NEED) and want to KEEP her man she MUST let her man feel needed. Sure, we are a new breed, a new generation and women have come a VERY long way but traditions die hard. Men and women still have roles But aren't there women who do those things, and the man still rolls out? Also, is it fair to still assign "roles" in this day and age when the man's role traditionally was to "earn a paycheck" and the woman's role was to "keep house"? If both are working 40+ hours a week, why should the woman be EXPECTED (it's a difference if it's what she wants to do) to stick with traditional gender roles?
The last thing I'd want to do is work all day, pick up the kids, cook, scrub toilets, mop, check homework and give baths while the man is sitting there watching the news.I hear you on this and I agree. My husband I split household duties and what we don't do, our children do. There are women who are living the scenario you described, and IMO, that is not a healthy relationship (unless of course the women prefers to handle all household responsibilities). |
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Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 15:17:13 GMT -5
How often do these things need to be done? I've only needed my dishwasher fixed ONCE in six years. And just because someone is a man, doesn't mean he knows how to fix stuff. But there are happy single folks. And unhappy married folks, too! *SIGH*...here we go again. Being a FEMINIST has nothing to do with an "I don't need a man" attitude or being "bitter" towards men.I think I'm about to gracefully bow out of this discussion, because it's getting nowhere and I feel as if I'm repeating myself. I am referring to the negative extremes of feminism. I am not referring to feminism in general. And yes I agree that there are happy single folk (I was one of them at one point) and unhappy married folk as well. What point about feminism do you feel that you are repeating? |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 15:17:16 GMT -5
What EXACTLY were you referring to? I might just e-mail the question to my boo and let him answer it. But there are happy single folks. And unhappy married folks, too! *SIGH*...here we go again. Being a FEMINIST has nothing to do with an "I don't need a man" attitude or being "bitter" towards men. I think I'm about to gracefully bow out of this discussion, because it's getting nowhere and I feel as if I'm repeating myself. I hear you Z. I was a happy single folk but I WANT to one day be a happily married woman. I have no desire to grow old alone. Imma have a man and/or some kids. It's possible he or I may roll out but I'd rather to have love and lost than not to love at all. ALL relationships are about sacrifice and compromise. Can't have it all BUT if you love someone and it's genuinely reciprocated you two will make it work. I'm happy when he's happy and he know when I'm not happy NO ONE is happy so it is in his best interest to keep me happy. His motto is, "A happy wife is a happy house!!" That's truth!!! |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 15:18:01 GMT -5
I too am referring to the negative extremes of feminism Z.
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Post by coldfront06 on Aug 12, 2008 15:35:47 GMT -5
Okay, here we go again. WHAT does "Let a woman be a woman and let a man be a man" really mean? I don't know how others would define this, but I know what my grandmother meant when she gave me that advice. She meant, allow my man to be chivalrous. If he wants to open doors for me - let him, don't say "I can open my own door". If he wants to walk on the street side of the sidewalk as we walk side by side - let him, don't say, "That's not necessary". If he wants to work a few extra hours to buy me a surprise gift from his own funds, rather than taking from the joint account - let him, don't complain about him working longer and tell him it's silly because we already have the money. If he respectfully ask that you not wear the backless dress with the deeply plunging neckline to the company party where all the world can see your goodies (his goodies) - respect that, don't come with the, "I'm a grown A$$ woman, I can wear what I want" mess. If he lovingly expresses concern over me being out late for safety reasons - let him and express appreciation for his care, don't come with the "Don't worry about me, I can take care of myself" foolishness. Stop reminding him of how independent you are without him and let him care for you. These are a few examples. These examples are in the context of a healthy marriage, not a negative extreme where the brother is overly possessive. And in no way did my grandmother's words pertain to "outdated gender roles" or scenarios where women aren't "allowed" to spend money without permission, go out with friends, or that kind of thing. I think that what a lot of women miss is that we have to respect our men, just as we want them to respect us. I ask and expect things from my husband and he delivers, so why should I not do the same? Exalt! |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 15:37:08 GMT -5
Oh, okay, I see what y'all mean. I guess in the end, it all depends on the couple and what works for them. Relationships take work and respect from both parties. |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 15:41:33 GMT -5
^^EGGSACTLY!!!!
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 12, 2008 16:09:14 GMT -5
Cam, Z, et al - here was the original post I was going to make. Z, no worries - you answered my question just fine but if you want to ask your boo - that's cool.
Written earlier (NOTE: The following is based on Damie's experience and is not a declaration of TRUTH for all people's lives)
I don't look at feminism as useless - I see it as having accomplished much of what it set out to do. I honestly think the fight should continue on under a different banner at this point because the brand is tarnished. People (other than yourself Z) have turned Feminisim into a simultaneous badge of man hatred and woman love. They seem to be focused more on vengeance than empowerment. And you will find few willing partners in that endeavor.
Now, I expect feminism to be vigilant and maybe even abrasive in changing the corporate world. The resistance from the corporate world will be no less vigilant so it's appropriate. But that approach is inappropriate for a family unit - or your mate - and I honestly don't see that distinction being made amongst some self-professed feminist.
Women who self-identify as feminist are often unilateralist. They have a set of demands that they have negotiated with themselves, and those demands are GOING to be IMPLEMENTED. The End.
And IMO,most often they DO NOT honor their men or show them they are respected, because it is neither a concern nor an ability they possess. Their men aren't mates, they are former advesaries broken and rehabiliated both for:
1. Their own good
2. Their maximum utility to their woman
They are subsquently loved as the dutiful pets they are, but never honored, never respected, as is meet for one that is a pet. Again - Damie's experience - not a declaration of truth
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Bigs
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Post by Bigs on Aug 12, 2008 17:09:57 GMT -5
My biggest beef with this discussion has always been the ability to cherry-pick gender roles. Its like me saying I don't want the role of provider, but my wife has to continue the role of nurturer. Or I don't want to cut the yard, but she still has to do the laundry.
My households seems somewhat similar to HF. We both work, but I am clearly the breadwinner and provider. We have some traditional roles that we fulfill, but most things are on a case by case basis. I don't expect her to work all day, come home, take care of kids, cook dinner, clean the house, all while I sit and watch TV. But I do expect that if I am handling the meal preparation, and dealing with our children, then she can be handling some of the other chores at the house.
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 12, 2008 17:14:11 GMT -5
My biggest beef with this discussion has always been the ability to cherry-pick gender roles. Its like me saying I don't want the role of provider, but my wife has to continue the role of nurturer. Or I don't want to cut the yard, but she still has to do the laundry. My households seems somewhat similar to HF. We both work, but I am clearly the breadwinner and provider. We have some traditional roles that we fulfill, but most things are on a case by case basis. I don't expect her to work all day, come home, take care of kids, cook dinner, clean the house, all while I sit and watch TV. But I do expect that if I am handling the meal preparation, and dealing with our children, then she can be handling some of the other chores at the house. *EXALT* MY house doesn't run on prescribed duties either...things are done based on who can do them best or who is available to do them. There is no such thing as a Woman Job or a Mans Job, beyond what we are bioloigcally built to do (having kids, etc.) |
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Post by Cambist on Aug 13, 2008 6:49:53 GMT -5
Same here although I wont fold another GOT DAYMED towel in my house....EVER! And NO, I'm not going to take the time to learn. It's a fuckING TOWEL! Fold it and put it away.
Oh yeah, the Warden can neither start the mower nor does she have the desire to be outside doing anything that resembles yard work. Well, she repots plants (that eventually die) and says that's the same thing yard work. Yeah, right.
Let's see...other than that, we both work, both clean (although she is the queen of clutter and I am the super hero known as Anti-Clutter), we both deal with the kid issues.
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Post by MochaD on Aug 13, 2008 7:36:08 GMT -5
^^See that right Thurr...Most men can't fold -LoL. Leave it to Cam, I bet their linen closet would look like a HAWT AZZ MESS!! I know my BF and I fold way different. He ain't about saving space. He folds by any means necessary -LoL. But the bottom line is whatever works for you and yours -PERIOD!! It works best when it is mutual not assumed. Communication is key!!!
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Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Aug 13, 2008 8:41:36 GMT -5
LOL! My husband can't fold clothes to save his life. When he's finished, it just looks like a raggedy pile of clothes, bless his heart. But we both have chores that the other doesn't do. I admittedly don't have the foggiest idea of how to mow a lawn and I ain't trying to learn either. I hate grocery shopping with a passion, so my husband does all of it, I just make the list. I do the master and guest bathrooms, my husband and I's laundry, and all of the cooking. If we decide to have BBQ for dinner, my husband works the grill, I just clean and season the meats. The boys do the majority of the chores - their laundry, clean their bathroom, the dishes, kitchen floor and counters, sweep, vacuum, take out the trash, dust, and clean their rooms. I refuse to cook in a dirty kitchen, and I will not do the dishes AND cook, so the rule in my house is if the kitchen isn't clean, y'all don't eat. It works for us.
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Post by MochaD on Aug 13, 2008 8:54:06 GMT -5
^^And let the Chuch say AMEN!!!!!
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Post by The Elect Lady on Aug 13, 2008 9:08:21 GMT -5
<------feminist thanks to Uncle Sam
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 13, 2008 9:14:13 GMT -5
Sometimes instead of folding clothes, I just leave them in the laundry basket in a pile, and pull stuff out as needed.  |
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Post by Cambist on Aug 13, 2008 9:57:46 GMT -5
You ain't the only one, Z.
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 13, 2008 10:15:53 GMT -5
I read an article this weekend that discussed how women used to take great pride in their homes and cleaning--it was like their homes were a reflection of them. They washed curtains, scrubbed behind refrigerators, did "Spring Cleaning", all that stuff. The article said nowadays with women working and whatnot, homes being a "showplace" just is not that important. The article said women nowadays were interested in their houses being "just clean enough".
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Post by Cambist on Aug 13, 2008 10:19:08 GMT -5
You can also tell by the lack of Formal Living Rooms in homes today. You know, the room that Big Momma had with the plastic on the furniture? Yeah, that room.
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Or hell, the way PEOPLE honor PEOPLE and show respect.
