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Post by Cambist on Aug 11, 2008 8:49:27 GMT -5
What effect has the women liberation (or feminist) movement had on our cultures thoughts about marriage and family?
Has our social structure caught up with or adapted to the changes that followed this movement?
Discuss...
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Post by LejaOMG on Aug 11, 2008 8:50:42 GMT -5
No!
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2008 9:25:20 GMT -5
Like anything else it has it's good side and bad side (women's lib)... I think it's bad side IS the fact that our social structure HASN'T caught up with and adapted to changes subsequent to the movement - and you have people trying to operate in both worlds (pre and post women's lib) and they are not compatible with one another.
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Post by MochaD on Aug 11, 2008 10:08:51 GMT -5
Honestly, and I HATE to say this BUT I think that the women liberation (or feminist) movement is a contributing factor as to why black women are the most singled/unmarried race.
*shields herself from tomatoes and shoes*
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Post by 123Diva on Aug 11, 2008 10:49:48 GMT -5
Is down with the principle of female independence and women as equals, but I kind of agree with Mocha.
<---does not consider herself a feminist
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 11, 2008 11:03:58 GMT -5
Like anything else it has it's good side and bad side (women's lib)... I think it's bad side IS the fact that our social structure HASN'T caught up with and adapted to changes subsequent to the movement - and you have people trying to operate in both worlds (pre and post women's lib) and they are not compatible with one another. To piggy back off what he said.... I think *some* lil boys are still raised with the expectations of women that their fathers & grandfathers had and to fufill the roles their F&G were taught to fufill, ie the bread winner who expects dinner to be there when he gets home. Whereas *some* lil girls are being raised with VERY different roles and expectations then their mothers & grandmothers. I mean, is home economics even taught in school anymore?? When this lil boy meets this 'new' lil girl - there lies a large part of the problem. I believe it's best to raise children to be completely capable of taking care of themselves, ie teaching lil boys to cook including how to buy food to make REAL nourishing meals), do laundry, if at all possible - even care for a baby. While we're encouraging our daughters to pursue a higher education, we need not throw the baby out with the bath water...they too should understand that a primary role as a mother & wife does NOT make her inadequate or less than...so she should have ALSO be taught to cook, etc. When this 'new' lil boy and this 'new' lil girl are of age...and both are capable...they can then decide which roles they want to fufill in their marriage or they can particapte evenly if need be. |
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 11, 2008 11:39:32 GMT -5
Like anything else it has it's good side and bad side (women's lib)... I think it's bad side IS the fact that our social structure HASN'T caught up with and adapted to changes subsequent to the movement - and you have people trying to operate in both worlds (pre and post women's lib) and they are not compatible with one another. To piggy back off what he said.... I think *some* lil boys are still raised with the expectations of women that their fathers & grandfathers had and to fufill the roles their F&G were taught to fufill, ie the bread winner who expects dinner to be there when he gets home. Whereas *some* lil girls are being raised with VERY different roles and expectations then their mothers & grandmothers. I mean, is home economics even taught in school anymore?? When this lil boy meets this 'new' lil girl - there lies a large part of the problem. I believe it's best to raise children to be completely capable of taking care of themselves, ie teaching lil boys to cook including how to buy food to make REAL nourishing meals), do laundry, if at all possible - even care for a baby. While we're encouraging our daughters to pursue a higher education, we need not throw the baby out with the bath water...they too should understand that a primary role as a mother & wife does NOT make her inadequate or less than...so she should have ALSO be taught to cook, etc. When this 'new' lil boy and this 'new' lil girl are of age...and both are capable...they can then decide which roles they want to fufill in their marriage or they can particapte evenly if need be. Cosign. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 11, 2008 12:23:53 GMT -5
Honestly, and I HATE to say this BUT I think that the women liberation (or feminist) movement is a contributing factor as to why black women are the most singled/unmarried race. I don't. I think it is the large number of Black men incarcerated, uneducated and unemployed. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 11, 2008 12:27:20 GMT -5
Another thing:
Why don't you consider yourself a feminist? The definition of feminism is "The belief in social, political and economic equality between the sexes". That's pretty much it. So it sounds like you hold feminist beliefs...why don't you consider yourself to be one?
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Post by 123Diva on Aug 11, 2008 12:51:30 GMT -5
Another thing: Why don't you consider yourself a feminist? The definition of feminism is "The belief in social, political and economic equality between the sexes". That's pretty much it. So it sounds like you hold feminist beliefs...why don't you consider yourself to be one? I don't consider myself a feminist because of what I've seen to be the ramifications or implications of the above definition. The definition in and of itself, I'm good with...but the Feminist Movement has certainly gone beyond that. Brief History: I attended an all-girls school 7-12th grade which meant lots of women's empowerment workshops, special opportunities, etc... Each time I was selected for one such opportunity 1 of 2 things were prevalent: 1) Man-hating 2) Lesbianism Because I didn't want to hate men or have love affairs with women, I began to move away from this whole movement. As a young woman who grew up in a house with parents who are married but couldn't stand each other, I knew that one day I wanted to be in a relationship with a black man that worked...Feminism (atleast what I was exposed to) told me that powerful and successful women hated men, and often "loved" other women...as if the black family unit could not work, as if a strong Black woman and a strong black man were bound to clash...and well I was not having that. So, in closing (LOL), 'Diva today would rather not be confined to society's definition or phrase for an empowered, independent woman. I know what I am, and I don't think it necessarily has to conflict with the family unit and having a gentleman in my life...does it make things harder? Yup. Impossible. Nope...I refuse to belive that. Did I mention also that sometimes we are empowered and independent to a fault?...Like we cannot appreciate a good man because it always seems threatening to our empowerment? I can go on and on... |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 11, 2008 13:24:11 GMT -5
That's what I hear a lot. Women say, "Well, I'm not a lesbian and I shave my legs and wear a bra and I don't hate men, and feminists do those things, so even though I believe in gender equality, I am not a feminist". That bothers me that the phrase has been mischaracterized and misunderstood. I SHOLE ain't nobody's lesbian, I am a 36 H so I ain't burning any bras, and I am pretty hairy, so I shave regularly. But I do expect to make the same salary as a man if I perform the same job. I want the right to vote. I want the right to choose a career path that I wish, and not have one forced on me (teaching, nursing, etc.) because of gender. I want the right to NOT marry or NOT have kids if I wish. tomatonation.com/?p=677I guess it depends on your view...I see a TON of women "settling" around here--just to have a man. Also, I look back on our parents and grandparents...so often we "romanticize" what they had. A lot of women had few options and had to stay with men that abused or mistreated them because they had little education or employment options. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 11, 2008 13:45:22 GMT -5
Like anything else it has it's good side and bad side (women's lib)... I think it's bad side IS the fact that our social structure HASN'T caught up with and adapted to changes subsequent to the movement - and you have people trying to operate in both worlds (pre and post women's lib) and they are not compatible with one another. To piggy back off what he said.... I think *some* lil boys are still raised with the expectations of women that their fathers & grandfathers had and to fufill the roles their F&G were taught to fufill, ie the bread winner who expects dinner to be there when he gets home. Whereas *some* lil girls are being raised with VERY different roles and expectations then their mothers & grandmothers. I mean, is home economics even taught in school anymore?? When this lil boy meets this 'new' lil girl - there lies a large part of the problem. I believe it's best to raise children to be completely capable of taking care of themselves, ie teaching lil boys to cook including how to buy food to make REAL nourishing meals), do laundry, if at all possible - even care for a baby. While we're encouraging our daughters to pursue a higher education, we need not throw the baby out with the bath water...they too should understand that a primary role as a mother & wife does NOT make her inadequate or less than...so she should have ALSO be taught to cook, etc. When this 'new' lil boy and this 'new' lil girl are of age...and both are capable...they can then decide which roles they want to fufill in their marriage or they can particapte evenly if need be.
Little boys who have been socialized to not cry, are now being taught it's okay show emotions among peers, only to find that it's really NOT all that acceptable still - not among men and in some instance not among women who still perceive it as weakness. Little boys have been socialized to be the dominant ones, and now they are being taught to view women as their ready peers, only to have the perverbial rug pulled from underneath them when they find a signficant demographic of women still expecting the chivalrous behavior that largely requires treating women UNLIKE peers.
Little girls who have been socialized to believe that expression of emotion was okay, are being taught to show no weakness and that independence is power, and when they do they are rewarded with criticisms on the lack of feminity that they were told they shouldn't embrace. Little girls who have been socialized to believe that a man should be the kind to take charge, have increasingly been taught that instead they should seek to take charge, and often go on to be very successful, very powerful, and very alone - because we are giving them diametrically opposed directives, and they cannot submit and take charge simultaneously.
Now add finances into the equation - and see how much worse it gets. |
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Aug 11, 2008 13:49:43 GMT -5
To piggy back off what he said.... I think *some* lil boys are still raised with the expectations of women that their fathers & grandfathers had and to fufill the roles their F&G were taught to fufill, ie the bread winner who expects dinner to be there when he gets home. Whereas *some* lil girls are being raised with VERY different roles and expectations then their mothers & grandmothers. I mean, is home economics even taught in school anymore?? When this lil boy meets this 'new' lil girl - there lies a large part of the problem. I believe it's best to raise children to be completely capable of taking care of themselves, ie teaching lil boys to cook including how to buy food to make REAL nourishing meals), do laundry, if at all possible - even care for a baby. While we're encouraging our daughters to pursue a higher education, we need not throw the baby out with the bath water...they too should understand that a primary role as a mother & wife does NOT make her inadequate or less than...so she should have ALSO be taught to cook, etc. When this 'new' lil boy and this 'new' lil girl are of age...and both are capable...they can then decide which roles they want to fufill in their marriage or they can particapte evenly if need be.
Little boys who have been socialized to not cry, are now being taught it's okay show emotions among peers, only to find that it's really NOT all that acceptable still - not among men and in some instance not among women who still perceive it as weakness. Little boys have been socialized to be the dominant ones, and now they are being taught to view women as their ready peers, only to have the perverbial rug pulled from underneath them when they find a signficant demographic of women still expecting the chivalrous behavior that largely requires treating women UNLIKE peers.
Little girls who have been socialized to believe that expression of emotion was okay, are being taught to show no weakness and that independence is power, and when they do they are rewarded with criticisms on the lack of feminity that they were told they shouldn't embrace. Little girls who have been socialized to believe that a man should be the kind to take charge, have increasingly been taught that instead they should seek to take charge, and often go on to be very successful, very powerful, and very alone - because we are giving them diametrically opposed directives, and they cannot submit and take charge simultaneously.
Now add finances into the equation - and see how much worse it gets. Then that's what you should have said in the first place...NICCUH  But yeah...I AGREE WITH WHAT 'HE' SAID ;D |
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Post by 123Diva on Aug 11, 2008 14:12:35 GMT -5
That's what I hear a lot. Women say, "Well, I'm not a lesbian and I shave my legs and wear a bra and I don't hate men, and feminists do those things, so even though I believe in gender equality, I am not a feminist". That bothers me that the phrase has been mischaracterized and misunderstood. I SHOLE ain't nobody's lesbian, I am a 36 H so I ain't burning any bras, and I am pretty hairy, so I shave regularly. But I do expect to make the same salary as a man if I perform the same job. I want the right to vote. I want the right to choose a career path that I wish, and not have one forced on me (teaching, nursing, etc.) because of gender. I want the right to NOT marry or NOT have kids if I wish. tomatonation.com/?p=677I guess it depends on your view...I see a TON of women "settling" around here--just to have a man. Also, I look back on our parents and grandparents...so often we "romanticize" what they had. A lot of women had few options and had to stay with men that abused or mistreated them because they had little education or employment options. Z. I know that the things i mentioned are not what feminism is "supposed to" be, but it certainly is what feminism has become...in my experience. 'Diva's not settling for a man. However, if/when God sends me my Boaz, i'll be damned if I let feminism get in the way. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 11, 2008 14:16:21 GMT -5
Why would "feminism" or being a feminist get in the way with God sending you a man?  I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I honestly am not understanding how being a feminist would keep you from getting a man. My boo is actually down with feminism. It works for us, and I like it. And I actually credit my father for teaching me a lot of feminist ideas. MEN can actually be feminists, believe it or not, if they support and work towards the ideals (social, political and economic gender equality). |
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 11, 2008 14:36:06 GMT -5
[/quote]
See I think it goes further than just that. To expand on my original thought I think both men and women are being caught in a society in flux wherein components of the old and new world are being advertised as the same thing. While the division of domestic duties is emblematic of the issue, the bigger picture I believe is how we "how we play the game when 2 sets of rules are still officially in play"
Little boys who have been socialized to not cry, are now being taught it's okay show emotions among peers, only to find that it's really NOT all that acceptable still - not among men and in some instance not among women who still perceive it as weakness. Little boys have been socialized to be the dominant ones, and now they are being taught to view women as their ready peers, only to have the perverbial rug pulled from underneath them when they find a signficant demographic of women still expecting the chivalrous behavior that largely requires treating women UNLIKE peers.
Little girls who have been socialized to believe that expression of emotion was okay, are being taught to show no weakness and that independence is power, and when they do they are rewarded with criticisms on the lack of feminity that they were told they shouldn't embrace. Little girls who have been socialized to believe that a man should be the kind to take charge, have increasingly been taught that instead they should seek to take charge, and often go on to be very successful, very powerful, and very alone - because we are giving them diametrically opposed directives, and they cannot submit and take charge simultaneously.
Now add finances into the equation - and see how much worse it gets. [/quote]
I agree with this, too.
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 11, 2008 14:41:17 GMT -5
And this...
"A lot of women had few options and had to stay with men that abused or mistreated them because they had little education or employment options."
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Post by 123Diva on Aug 11, 2008 14:56:31 GMT -5
Why would "feminism" or being a feminist get in the way with God sending you a man? I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I honestly am not understanding how being a feminist would keep you from getting a man. My boo is actually down with feminism. It works for us, and I like it. And I actually credit my father for teaching me a lot of feminist ideas. MEN can actually be feminists, believe it or not, if they support and work towards the ideals (social, political and economic gender equality). Z, this may be a matter of just agreeing to disagree or perhaps I am not explaining myself properly. What I am saying is that oftentimes, the ramifications of feminism (which is probably not what was meant to happen) can hinder the production of a cohesive family unit. And I didn't say "a man"...I said "my Boaz". I don't care if my independent nature scares off dudes who I am not meant to be with and who can't handle me. That is all well and good. What I'm saying is that i do not want to evolve into a man-hater that wouldn't know it if her God-sent man was right in front of her. That is ALL I'm saying. A man being a gentleman and him loving me the way that God loves the church should not threaten my independence and sense of self. For some woman, it would be the case due to their form of "feminism." Your belief system does not necessarily fall under what I'm saying I have a problem with. Remember, my views are solely based off of my own observations and experiences. |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Aug 11, 2008 15:00:59 GMT -5
Z, this may be a matter of just agreeing to disagree or perhaps I am not explaining myself properly. What I am saying is that oftentimes, the ramifications of feminism (which is probably not what was meant to happen) can hinder the production of a cohesive family unit. And I didn't say "a man"...I said "my Boaz". I don't care if my independent nature scares off dudes who I am not meant to be with and who can't handle me. That is all well and good. What I'm saying is that i do not want to evolve into a man-hater that wouldn't know it if her God-sent man was right in front of her. That is ALL I'm saying.
A man being a gentleman and him loving me the way that God loves the church should not threaten my independence and sense of self. For some woman, it would be the case due to their form of "feminism."Your belief system does not necessarily fall under what I'm saying I have a problem with. Remember, my views are solely based off of my own observations and experiences. I agree with this for the most part, especially the red part. |
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 11, 2008 15:52:03 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying DIVA and I don't think that you and Z disagree.
What you have described, IMHO, is feminism gone wrong and it is what many people think of when they hear the term.
Some people's definition of feminism has ruined them to the point that they think they don't need a man for anything, including intimacy. That's not what feminism is all about. What you aspire to have (independence as well as a committed relationship) IS achievable. I know from personal experience. I am very independent, but I don't allow that independence to interfere with marriage and family. My husband and I have definitely reached an understanding and that it what is most important. For example, I have a lot of "more traditional" women look at me sideways when I say my husband does most of the family's cooking, like there is something wrong with that. We both work outside the home, so we share the responsibilities at home. As long as expectations are communicated and settled before you say "I do", you'll be fine.
The funny thing is, until I read Z's definition, and really thought about it, I would not have considered myself feminist.
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Post by LejaOMG on Aug 11, 2008 17:09:37 GMT -5
:lurk:
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Post by Kryptik on Aug 12, 2008 11:48:17 GMT -5
Another thing: Did I mention also that sometimes we are empowered and independent to a fault?...Like we cannot appreciate a good man because it always seems threatening to our empowerment?I can go on and on... I couldn't agree with you more on this! I have now experienced this personally, and beforehand would have never assumed it possible. "Over-empowerment" can kill a relationship! I mean be strong, but don't think every little thing a man does, whether knowingly or not, is an attempt to "subjugate" , belittle, or in any other way take away from your womanhood. |
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Serenity
OOA pledge
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Posts: 158
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Post by Serenity on Aug 12, 2008 12:30:00 GMT -5
I agree with what has been posted thus far. The negative extremes of the tradition of male dominance caused the need for the Feminist Movement. The negative extremes of Feminism has in many cases resulted in the disregard for and lack of understanding of the importance of the role of men, and thus a consequent breakdown of the family unit. A happy medium is needed. Racism and governmental practices such as the design of the welfare system have also contributed to the breakdown of the family unit, especially the Black family. I'm reminded of the song "The Fact Is (I Need You)" by Jill Scott www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jillscott/thefactisineedyou.htmlMy interpretation of these lyrics is that while the writer acknowledges her independence and ability to self-sustain, she also values the importance of the man's role in the life of her and her child. Shortly before marrying, I remember my grandmother telling me, "It's good that you got your education and make your own money. Keep doing that. Never let a him walk all over you, but remember to be a lady and let your man be a man. Always show him appreciation and make sure he appreciates you." |
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 12, 2008 13:25:15 GMT -5
I agree with what has been posted thus far. The negative extremes of the tradition of male dominance caused the need for the Feminist Movement. The negative extremes of Feminism has in many cases resulted in the disregard for and lack of understanding of the importance of the role of men, and thus a consequent breakdown of the family unit. A happy medium is needed. Racism and governmental practices such as the design of the welfare system have also contributed to the breakdown of the family unit, especially the Black family. I'm reminded of the song "The Fact Is (I Need You)" by Jill Scott www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jillscott/thefactisineedyou.htmlMy interpretation of these lyrics is that while the writer acknowledges her independence and ability to self-sustain, she also values the importance of the man's role in the life of her and her child. Shortly before marrying, I remember my grandmother telling me, "It's good that you got your education and make your own money. Keep doing that. Never let a him walk all over you, but remember to be a lady and let your man be a man. Always show him appreciation and make sure he appreciates you." That sums it up quite nicely for me.  |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 13:35:28 GMT -5
Okay, here we go again. WHAT does "Let a woman be a woman and let a man be a man" really mean? I have asked that question on this board a couple of times, on other boards and of people IRL, and I have NEVER gotten a definitive answer. My outlook on the whole Kit 'n Caboodle is this: I am greatful for feminism/womanism and the Civil Rights movement. My other happens to be a little bit older (she's almost 70), and I remember her talking about how there were few career choices for women--basically teaching and nursing. She chose teaching, but she made it clear that she hated it, and that she would have been well-suited in a career doing something else. There was a time when a woman couldn't be a doctor or a lawyer. There was a time when it was LEGAL to pay a woman less for a job--even a job like teaching. You could even advertise it in the classifieds: "Help Wanted, $10 men, $8 women". There was a time when women couldn't vote. I think people tend to forget this, and I guess they look at feminism nowadays as "useless". As for how it all pans out today, my views are as follows: we are in a two-income economy, so there are more and more women in the workforce. It's pretty much a necessity. So why hold on to outdated gender roles *IF* the person does not care for that role or if it doesn't make sense? For example, why should the man decide how ALL of the money is spent if the woman is working and earning money, too? I remember this woman saying her husband wouldn't allow her to buy clothes. I told her, "Maybe you should get a part-time job". She said she worked 40hrs a week. WTF? This makes no sense. As for some women being "over empowering", maybe this is a problem, but I see just as many women who are UN-empowered in their relationships, and tolerate all manner of foolishness and nonsense in order to stay married. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Aug 12, 2008 13:46:05 GMT -5
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Post by Highly Favored on Aug 12, 2008 14:21:18 GMT -5
That's not what I meant. My response has less to do with roles in the household and more with the way an "independent" woman treats her husband. As I stated earlier, because both me and my husband work outside the home, our roles are not "traditional". He does most of the cooking. I pay the bills and manage the household finances, because I am better at it than he is. There are other things I could list, but I am going to stop with those roles, since that is really not the issue for me. I still respect him as head of the household and he respects me as his helper. When a woman allows her independence to affect how she treats her husband, that's a problem. Some women have a problem making that distinction and they treat their husbands badly, just because they can do for themselves and don't necessarily need their husbands. It's the "I don't need you" attitude that sometimes accompanies "feminism gone wrong" to which I am referring. Trust me, I am appreciative of the strides that have been made to give women equal access to opportunities in our country. |
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Post by MochaD on Aug 12, 2008 14:22:38 GMT -5
Honestly, and I HATE to say this BUT I think that the women liberation (or feminist) movement is a contributing factor as to why black women are the most singled/unmarried race. I don't. I think it is the large number of Black men incarcerated, uneducated and unemployed. I don't believe that. NOT ONE BIT!! That's what the media wants us to believe though. We''ve been brain washed. I meet GREAT men daily who are free, educated and have great jobs. I also know A LOT of women who chase after DAWGS and these women are educated, successful and have great jobs. However, when it comes to common sense pertaining to men and relationships they are educated fools. AND I've even heard one young lady tell me that all the good men are in jail AFTER she married one. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly aware of the men of which you speack of Z, but not ALL BLACK men are in this category. (I stand corrected)but there are a large number of good black men out there just the same. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Aug 12, 2008 14:32:25 GMT -5
You know I had this really elaborate post in response to Z ready to go and then I figured I'd skip it and just ask this for now:
How does a feminist honor her man and shows him he's respected?
I'll wait to see if anyone has a plausible response
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Post by Cambist on Aug 12, 2008 14:43:55 GMT -5
Had a response until he read Damie's question....*waiting*
I would love to have a wife who is a domestic engineer! MAN! All I have to do is work and bring home the check? I don't even have to bring it home, just direct deposit and my woman takes care of the rest!! YAY!!
For that matter, i'd love to stay at home and write, research, study and take care of the house. I'd finally get to go eat lunch with my kids or attend one of their mid day award assembly.
Hell, I can cook, clean (and I like my house clean and clear from clutter), pay bills, manage money.
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I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I honestly am not understanding how being a feminist would keep you from getting a man.
