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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 29, 2009 1:55:43 GMT -5
The representation of Satan (the serpent) did not question the validity of what God told them, the serpent told them the exact opposite of what God said. So either God lied or Satan lied - they couldn't have both told the truth.
Given what you know about them which one do you think lied? God said they would die. Let's examine the evidence. Did Adam die? Did Eve die? Did either of them live forever? Who said they would not die? That was Satan right? So which one told the truth?
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12-14;&version=31;
I can see that the lynch pin of your argument is going to require:
a) That Adam and Eve were ignorant before speaking to Satan
b) that after talking with the Serpent man begin to think
c) Thought is required for free will
a) I would take issue with your claim of ignorance on the part of Adam and Eve. God didn't say don't eat of "that tree over there" He told them not to eat from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". They already KNEW what is was before Satan got there.
b) The only new piece of information given to Adam and Eve that God didn't already impart to them before was Satan's assertion that they would not die (which of course turned out to be a lie). Where is Satan sparking them to think written in the text? Where does it say that Adam or Eve thought about anything? They say that the fruit was good for food and pleasing to the eye - but this was already known in the previous Chapter. We already know it's not just a tree, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What is the only new piece of information? The lie that they wouldn't die. Does following Satan's counsel demonstrate thought? If so, then weren't they demonstrating thought when they were following God's counsel previously? And if so, don't we have to give God credit for thought? Take it a step further... if Adam was unable to think before talking to Satan, how is it that he's naming animals as God brings them by? How does he know that animals need to be named? Take it a step further - is it possible to communicate at ALL without thought? Isn't Adam talking to God. Doesn't Satan actually have to talk with Eve to lie to her?
c) This is a semantic argument - does the ability to choose come with conscience or does it come with thought. Again a semantics argument - you could argue this one alot of different ways and be right. For instance I could argue to choose, you must think, to think you must have conscience. Of course if that's true then you can't really argue that Satan gave man free will. The one that gave man free will was the One that gave him conscience. And that would be...
...yeah you guessed it God. ;D  ;D
Damie there is no consciousness or thought without a relative difference brother. You can't be conscious if you are not aware of the self first. Adam and Eve didn't know they were Naked. That destroys your notion that they were conscious. Adam and Eve did not acknowledge a relative difference. They did not test what they were told until... Satan set the stage for them to do so. Again Satan didn't force Eve to eat the apple he set the stage for her to think. He gave the relative difference. The thought was achieved first... they ate and in an instance... they became conscious as they then realized they were naked.
Now here is where the store folds in on itself and the worm hole sucks you in. If Adam and Eve until Satan were barred from partaking in the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....that means they did not know what good or evil was nor did they have free will to come to a conclusion what good or evil was. If they did two things could have happened... #1 they could have been given the free will to discern whether "God" was good or evil and #2 they would have been prepared to confront Satan if he truly was evil. The crux of the matter then comes to... How can God punish Adam and Eve for something he refused to prepare them for? They didn't know Satan was evil because they did not have the knowledge of good or evil... Who blocked them of that knowledge Damie? Hmmpf
Realize as per the story Satan gives man the stage to think. Once Man thinks they then carry out the action of the thought... the outcome is consciousness.. If it were up to the God of the bible.. Man would've never known anything. Man would have remained naked. It is because of the "Sin" of Adam and Eve that the duality and hallmark of Christianity Good vs Evil every Man, Woman, and Child are conscious of it and can make a choice.
Now you stated God said if they ate from the tree they would surely die. Did Adam Die? Did Eve Die? Yes they did... but why did they die? Did they die because they ate from the tree OR because "God" kicked them out of the Garden out of fear they would also eat from the tree of life and live forever? The fear of the knowledge. So fearful... he used cherubim and a flaming sword to protect it. What does the book say?
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23THEREFORE the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Robs man of free will again but this time since Man now has Knowledge and isn't ignorant... The "God" has to protect his last divide that separates him from Man. Eternal Life... it being in the EAST isn't a coincidence either... but thats another story another topic.
As the combo quote goes from my 84 Year old occult science book that I am rereading after some years...
Clearly if there is no thinker there can be no thought and if there is no thought there can be no denial. Consequently where there is no change, no relative conditions, there can be no consciousness......
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Post by Cambist on Apr 29, 2009 8:32:34 GMT -5
Here's my issue....without free will, why would God have had to give Adam a directive?
When I take my nephew and niece to the mall, I never tell them to keep spending under $50,000. Why? Because it's not possible for them to spend that money.
Ok, well...He may have just been giving directions, right? Well, what is the purpose of consequences ("...you shall surely die") if there is no choice or free will to make a choice?
Just my thoughts.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 29, 2009 8:37:11 GMT -5
Genesis 2:23
The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man."
So I think we can close the book on that one. There was consciousness of self long before Satan entered the picture. And again, I think you are equating critical thinking with following counsel. Read the text... there is nothing there about thought. They simply follow counsel. Adam doesn't even talk to Satan at all - how do you attribute his eating the fruit to Satan to opening his eyes and/or making him think? Adam got the fruit from Eve and he didn't think about anything he simply took it and ate it. For those that doubt this read the text... that is what it says. On what basis are you giving Satan credit for making him think about it?
Free will is about decision making, it's about choice. Every action is a choice. Eating or not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil had no impact on their ability to make a choice. If they did not have the ability to choose, they couldn't have eaten from it. I'm not sure how anyone succesfully explains this away.
You have kids don't you? Do they know right from wrong? Do you provide them rules to avoid calamity. My guess is yes to all the above. Do your children need to test your rules to see what is good for them and what is not or do they simply need to listen to you? I submit to you in your scenario, you presume unnecessarily. All Adam and Eve had to do was listen to God - in the same way your kids need only listen to your for guidance.
I disagree that Satan gave Adam and Eve anything but sin. Nor do I agree that thought produces consciousness... I would argue that consciousness is required first for thought. I'm not sure how it can successfully be argued otherwise.
I did state that God said if they ate from the tree they would surely die. And I did ask did Adam Die and did Eve die. The answer is yes - and of course before you go any further you have to acknowledge that that means that Satan lied - because he said surely they would not. The mechanism is not important - there was no assertion about the mechanism of death by God or Satan - only whether or not it would happen. God said it would - it did. Satan said it would not - it did.
Can we possess that of which we have been robbed? If God robs man of free will, how do we have free will now? LOL - I'm not following you at all. Adam was able to choose, and he did. Eve was able to choose and she did. You are able to choose and you do - we all have free will and we have had it since God created man - because God granted it.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 29, 2009 10:15:32 GMT -5
Here's my issue....without free will, why would God have had to give Adam a directive? When I take my nephew and niece to the mall, I never tell them to keep spending under $50,000. Why? Because it's not possible for them to spend that money. Ok, well...He may have just been giving directions, right? Well, what is the purpose of consequences ("...you shall surely die") if there is no choice or free will to make a choice? Just my thoughts.
After your computer is built why does it need a operating system? Does your computer use free will not to infect itself or do you have to tell it not to do so with some type of virus software? The fact that you have to tell your Nephew or God has to tell Adam not to do something shows ignorance. Shows they do not have free will to come to a conclusion using their own judgment what is good and what is not. The cold vein is they were punished for something they were not prepared for.
Just like I asked my mom when I was a kid... Why didn't God tell them not to talk to strangers? Adam and Eve up till Satan are but following Code no more no less. They are mere machines carrying out directives without thought. A Virus is coded to know if it doesn't infect a host cell... it will die period. What makes a Virus not alive.... not conscious... is that it doesn't have the Nucleus.. the brain center to figure out a way that it can live and go against its on code. That is what consciousness and thinking is. Not carrying out laws.... breaking them... molding them.... testing them. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 29, 2009 11:52:46 GMT -5
Genesis 2:23
The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man."
So I think we can close the book on that one. There was consciousness of self long before Satan entered the picture. And again, I think you are equating critical thinking with following counsel. Read the text... there is nothing there about thought. They simply follow counsel. Adam doesn't even talk to Satan at all - how do you attribute his eating the fruit to Satan to opening his eyes and/or making him think? Adam got the fruit from Eve and he didn't think about anything he simply took it and ate it. For those that doubt this read the text... that is what it says. On what basis are you giving Satan credit for making him think about it?
Free will is about decision making, it's about choice. Every action is a choice. Eating or not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil had no impact on their ability to make a choice. If they did not have the ability to choose, they couldn't have eaten from it. I'm not sure how anyone succesfully explains this away.
You have kids don't you? Do they know right from wrong? Do you provide them rules to avoid calamity. My guess is yes to all the above. Do your children need to test your rules to see what is good for them and what is not or do they simply need to listen to you? I submit to you in your scenario, you presume unnecessarily. All Adam and Eve had to do was listen to God - in the same way your kids need only listen to your for guidance.
I disagree that Satan gave Adam and Eve anything but sin. Nor do I agree that thought produces consciousness... I would argue that consciousness is required first for thought. I'm not sure how it can successfully be argued otherwise.
I did state that God said if they ate from the tree they would surely die. And I did ask did Adam Die and did Eve die. The answer is yes - and of course before you go any further you have to acknowledge that that means that Satan lied - because he said surely they would not. The mechanism is not important - there was no assertion about the mechanism of death by God or Satan - only whether or not it would happen. God said it would - it did. Satan said it would not - it did.
Can we possess that of which we have been robbed? If God robs man of free will, how do we have free will now? LOL - I'm not following you at all. Adam was able to choose, and he did. Eve was able to choose and she did. You are able to choose and you do - we all have free will and we have had it since God created man - because God granted it.
Lets go to church here again so you can get this concept I'm pimpin here. Adam was coded to know who Eve would be.... Again that isn't free will. Lets remember as per the story "God" speaks everything into existence. God stated Genesis 2:18 "18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." So Adam was coded to know who Eve was before she was even Made.
Now this is about to mess your head up here. Why was Man made in the first place? Well lets see...
Genesis 2:5-6 5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a MAN to till the ground. 6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
So... the "God" of the bible has all these herbs but no man to till the ground or cultivate the herbs and the "God" had not yet caused it to rain... Then a mist "water vapor" went up from the earth and came back down to the ground as rain... Lets see what happens to next..
Genesis 2:6-7 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Umm... So Adam was made to till the ground. To cultivate the Garden and again it isn't through consciousness but through code. We will revisit this later because it is very very important.
Lets go Back to Genesis one as in concern to the naming of the animals...
Genesis 1:26 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Again you see code. So man is Coded to know who Eve is, how to till, and what he is supposed to do with the Animals. None of the aforementioned are thoughts... but moreso Code. When Satan comes along and provides that relative difference, provides that stage to make a choice..then and only then is there a thinker present. See Adam and Eve never asked what all children eventually ask.... WHY. Why can't we eat? Why will I die? That is thought. That is consciousness.
So after man and woman has "sinned" lets see the immediate punishment "God" gives Adam.
Genesis 3:23 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Wait a minute... Thats what you made him to perform in the first place. Adam was already tilling the ground from whence he came. Ohhhh because he wasn't conscious of it then it didn't matter. Now that he is conscious it matters... He never noticed the thorns and thistles... He never understood the sweat.... Now he does |
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Post by nsync on Apr 29, 2009 12:59:56 GMT -5
In this case why is relative difference important? Why is thinking important ? Are these things more important than purpose? God created Adam and Eve. He had a purpose for both of them.
Are you suggesting here that there is a power greater than God? Is that power choice and thought, from your perspective?
Because in my opinion if God is the highest power and He made me specifically for a reason, that is the reason I am to fulfill. If He "codeded" me to do just that, then why exactly do I need to think? Where is that leading me? Is it helping me to fulfill my purpose and please my Maker?
(I know the concept of "not thinking" may feels just as malignant as the concept of "God lied" feels to me, but bear with me here)
I am truly trying to see what you are getting at based on what you have stated about God and satan based on the Genesis chapter.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 29, 2009 13:17:49 GMT -5
I see no evidence in the text to support your statement. If that's what you believe so be it, but there is almost nothing I can see that serves as support for this assertion in the text. I think I'm being fair when I say you have to exert a good deal of creative license to derive this from the available text.
Again, this just seems like an unnecessary stretch. God created earth, plants, and Heaven, but somehow He couldn't till the ground? In fact He created man to till the ground because (I'm taking a shot in the dark here) there was no other way it could happen - thus this was man's function? Again - I don't doubt that you believe it and that's fine, what you choose to believe isn't fodder for debate, but does the reasoning hold here? To me it does not seem to.
Again I see the assertion, I see little support for that assertion from the text.
Fair enough they do not question God, but VP did you notice - no one questions Satan either? If your model held true, wouldn't Eve at least ask, "hey - are you sure?". But Satan wasn't questioned was he? Eve simply followed his counsel. And again, I ask - who does Adam talk to? Who does Adam question? Where is his "relative difference" as you put it since he didn't actually talk to the Serpent?
Again this requires what I believe is an unnecessary construct that God needed man to till the ground therefore that was man's purpose (neither of which I hold to be true or supported by reasoning based on the text). The assertion that Adam was completely unaware of everything is also, I believe, an unnecessary and flawed construct. All we know for sure is that Adam and Eve do not know the difference between good and evil before partaking of the fruit. Why assume coding is the mode of transmission in the absence of evidence? For all we know God simply told Adam what he needed to know. The text could support a number of different transmission methods. Ironically none of this even matters because, the point that Adam had knowledge further supports that he thought and had conscience and an ability to choose PRIOR to Eve's encounter with Satan, thus Satan did could not have provided free will.
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Apr 29, 2009 14:12:45 GMT -5
*Can't wait for the e-cliff notes fot this thread*
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Post by huey on Apr 29, 2009 15:32:26 GMT -5
Also again, where in the Bible does it say the serpent is Satan?
Also, do people take Adam as a historical person or allegory?
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 29, 2009 15:34:15 GMT -5
The representation of Satan (the serpent) did not question the validity of what God told them, the serpent told them the exact opposite of what God said. So either God lied or Satan lied - they couldn't have both told the truth.
Given what you know about them which one do you think lied? God said they would die. Let's examine the evidence. Did Adam die? Did Eve die? Did either of them live forever? Who said they would not die? That was Satan right? So which one told the truth?
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12-14;&version=31;
I can see that the lynch pin of your argument is going to require:
a) That Adam and Eve were ignorant before speaking to Satan
b) that after talking with the Serpent man begin to think
c) Thought is required for free will
a) I would take issue with your claim of ignorance on the part of Adam and Eve. God didn't say don't eat of "that tree over there" He told them not to eat from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". They already KNEW what is was before Satan got there.
b) The only new piece of information given to Adam and Eve that God didn't already impart to them before was Satan's assertion that they would not die (which of course turned out to be a lie). Where is Satan sparking them to think written in the text? Where does it say that Adam or Eve thought about anything? They say that the fruit was good for food and pleasing to the eye - but this was already known in the previous Chapter. We already know it's not just a tree, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What is the only new piece of information? The lie that they wouldn't die. Does following Satan's counsel demonstrate thought? If so, then weren't they demonstrating thought when they were following God's counsel previously? And if so, don't we have to give God credit for thought? Take it a step further... if Adam was unable to think before talking to Satan, how is it that he's naming animals as God brings them by? How does he know that animals need to be named? Take it a step further - is it possible to communicate at ALL without thought? Isn't Adam talking to God. Doesn't Satan actually have to talk with Eve to lie to her?
c) This is a semantic argument - does the ability to choose come with conscience or does it come with thought. Again a semantics argument - you could argue this one alot of different ways and be right. For instance I could argue to choose, you must think, to think you must have conscience. Of course if that's true then you can't really argue that Satan gave man free will. The one that gave man free will was the One that gave him conscience. And that would be...
...yeah you guessed it God. ;D ;D
This right here, is starting to make me e-fall for you all over again, lol! Kudos Damie! |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 29, 2009 15:46:30 GMT -5
I see no evidence in the text to support your statement. If that's what you believe so be it, but there is almost nothing I can see that serves as support for this assertion in the text. I think I'm being fair when I say you have to exert a good deal of creative license to derive this from the available text.
Again, this just seems like an unnecessary stretch. God created earth, plants, and Heaven, but somehow He couldn't till the ground? In fact He created man to till the ground because (I'm taking a shot in the dark here) there was no other way it could happen - thus this was man's function? Again - I don't doubt that you believe it and that's fine, what you choose to believe isn't fodder for debate, but does the reasoning hold here? To me it does not seem to.
Again I see the assertion, I see little support for that assertion from the text.
Fair enough they do not question God, but VP did you notice - no one questions Satan either? If your model held true, wouldn't Eve at least ask, "hey - are you sure?". But Satan wasn't questioned was he? Eve simply followed his counsel. And again, I ask - who does Adam talk to? Who does Adam question? Where is his "relative difference" as you put it since he didn't actually talk to the Serpent?
Again this requires what I believe is an unnecessary construct that God needed man to till the ground therefore that was man's purpose (neither of which I hold to be true or supported by reasoning based on the text). The assertion that Adam was completely unaware of everything is also, I believe, an unnecessary and flawed construct. All we know for sure is that Adam and Eve do not know the difference between good and evil before partaking of the fruit. Why assume coding is the mode of transmission in the absence of evidence? For all we know God simply told Adam what he needed to know. The text could support a number of different transmission methods. Ironically none of this even matters because, the point that Adam had knowledge further supports that he thought and had conscience and an ability to choose PRIOR to Eve's encounter with Satan, thus Satan did could not have provided free will.
Damie its not a stretch at all bruh. God made Adam to till the ground. Genesis 2:4-7 Its plain. Its not a stretch. God stated he had herbs but no rain and no man to till the ground. The mist went up out of the earth and rain came that satisfied the water issues... he then immediately makes Adam... that satisfies the second issue of no Man telling the ground. God then makes the Garden and puts man in the Garden. To do what Damie? Till the ground. Cultivate the Garden. Now if you don't want to see that for what it is... hey. But you can't say the "proof" isn't there. The Bible is written in a rhythm from the beginning. The God of the bible first has a thought then it speaks it into being. Don't go along then when it comes to Adam you use Bias because the truth is messed up as in concern to the story. Lets look at this...
Genesis 1:1-2
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Thought and Action but arrives at a Problem
Genesis 1:3-10
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.- 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. Problem is fixed.
Above are the first 10 verses of Genesis and it establishes the rhythm of Genesis. A thought and action is done if a problem arises... immediately afterwards a solution is brought forth. Therefore.
PROBLEM
Genesis 2:5 5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. No Rain, No Man to till the ground. It says that verbatim not a reach.
SOLUTION
Genesis 2:6-7 6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Mist rises up from the earth and rain is created... the "God" then makes Man.
Thats the rhythm... if you don't want to accept that.. cool.. But the rhythm remains and logically using the text and what the words state... you can't formulate an argument against it.
You also stated well yeah Eve and Adam didn't question Satan either.... But why didn't they Damie? You JUST proved my premise.. Because they were ignorant. Because they had not in them the KNOWLEDGE to raise any point of contention. The ignorance and not knowing good and evil allowed them to be gullable... Going back to the question you keep skipping pass. Who blocked Adam and Eve from receiving that knowledge? As a matter of fact what was really the sin?
The PROBLEM
Genesis 3:22 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The SOLUTION
Genesis 3:23-24 23THEREFORE the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 29, 2009 16:06:57 GMT -5
In this case why is relative difference important? Why is thinking important ? Are these things more important than purpose? God created Adam and Eve. He had a purpose for both of them. Are you suggesting here that there is a power greater than God? Is that power choice and thought, from your perspective? Because in my opinion if God is the highest power and He made me specifically for a reason, that is the reason I am to fulfill. If He "codeded" me to do just that, then why exactly do I need to think? Where is that leading me? Is it helping me to fulfill my purpose and please my Maker? (I know the concept of "not thinking" may feels just as malignant as the concept of "God lied" feels to me, but bear with me here) I am truly trying to see what you are getting at based on what you have stated about God and satan based on the Genesis chapter.
It's what makes you you. Lets look at your 5 Senses. Sight, Hearing, Touch, Taste, Smell.
What makes you conscious of your 5 senses.
What makes you able to See? To notice a difference. If you can't see something then you are blind. If someone shines a light in your eyes and you don't blink.. you don't see the light.. then as it concerns that light source your are Blind.
If someone plays a sound and you don't hear it.. then as concern to that sound you are deaf.
If someone touches you and you don't feel it then as in concern to that person you have no sense of touch.
If someone puts something on your tongue and you don't taste it then as in concern to that substance you have no sense of taste.
If someone emits a smell in the air and you don't smell it as concern to that substance you lack a sense of smell.
Consciousness is being able to notice relative change from one state to the other. Thought is being able to access these changes to formulate what you believe is truth. If you can't do neither you are ignorant. If someone blocks that then to them you are a slave. It's simple. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 30, 2009 2:10:44 GMT -5
Here is what I believe I hear you asserting
Thats what you made him to perform in the first place. Adam was already tilling the ground from whence he came. Ohhhh because he wasn't conscious of it then it didn't matter. Now that he is conscious it matters... He never noticed the thorns and thistles... He never understood the sweat.... Now he does
This is how your logic builds. You say that Adam was meant to till the ground. You assert that he wasn't conscious of it. You say he becomes conscious of tilling the ground only after Satan. The crux of your argument relies on this being true. You also just added, the problem/solution paradigm to bolster the claim. What I am trying to point out to you is that the text doesn't support what you are asserting.
Let's start with your assertion that each time God does something it creation it is problem and solution. What does the text say... let's start from the beginning. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Hmmmmm... so where is the problem that necessitated this solution? The very first line of text defies your model - it begins with an act not a problem. Your model doesn't survive the very first test. In fact don't you have to spend a fair amount of time cherry picking events and erecting problems that they solve because many simply will not fit the model at all?
Actually you can. Creation isn't an exercise in problem solving - creation is more an act of divine art, there is not necessarily a problem to solve, but there is an expression to be made (in this case divine expression). God is making a work of art, and He happens to be doing it step by step. THAT is what you are witnessing in Genesis - not problem solving. This makes more sense when we note in the text that God stops to note that His work is good, during stages of development.
Second, man's innate purpose is praise. The masterpiece honors the master. That is purpose. Pointing out that someone had to till the ground at some point? That's a job - Adam got the job first (in Eden). But Bruh there is a difference between a job and a purpose. You can do one forever and never be fulfilled, and you can do the other for a second and suddenly have understanding that previously. Our jobs are not necessarily our purposes.
Third, there is absolutely nothing in the text that says Adam doesn't understand tilling the ground. It's just not in there. The text tells us the only thing he and Eve didn't know was the difference between right and wrong. It is by almost every stretch of the imagination an artificial constraint necessary only for your argument - but there is nothing in the text or subsequent reasoning that supports it. It's not even a question of wanting or not wanting to see it - it just isn't there.
Actually I'm probably putting more holes in your premise than proving it. Recall earlier you said:
See? You are saying that Satan provided them relative difference, and thought - and that God did not. As proof you note that they don't question God. All I point out to you is that they don't ask Satan anything either - so by your premise Satan didn't provide them with thought or difference either (as asserted above). If your argument is now that they are ignorant - then you are at least no longer arguing that Satan provided, free will, thought, choice, or conscience (because your example doesn't support it).
Skipping questions? Alright then...here's the answer to your question again:
God blocked Adam and Eve from death. I gave the reference in Romans 5:12 earlier. That is what came as part of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The knowlege of good and evil combined with free will is a path that leads to sin the wage of which is death. That is what God blocked.
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Post by nsync on Apr 30, 2009 2:37:55 GMT -5
You know I was going to bring this up, not so much of whether Adam is historical as I wanted to talk about the allegoric nature of the story. Anyhow, there is no mention that the serpent was satan? I thought it was mentioned at some point. One thing I know is they never said the fruit was an apple. AND God told ADAM not to eat from the tree not Eve(although they both were not to eat from it). (wait let me go check that again)* Ima leave this up though incase someone wants to refute it before I get back.* People seem to add to the story as they come to understand it. Also again, where in the Bible does it say the serpent is Satan? Also, do people take Adam as a historical person or allegory? |
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Post by nsync on Apr 30, 2009 2:42:30 GMT -5
Oh okay so you are suggesting God created man to be a slave...and you believe satan introduced them to an alternative . gotcha. It seems to me the reverse happened. satan offered them an alternative that would cause them to be enslaved to the painful reality of life and death. God was protecting them from that. In this case why is relative difference important? Why is thinking important ? Are these things more important than purpose? God created Adam and Eve. He had a purpose for both of them. Are you suggesting here that there is a power greater than God? Is that power choice and thought, from your perspective? Because in my opinion if God is the highest power and He made me specifically for a reason, that is the reason I am to fulfill. If He "codeded" me to do just that, then why exactly do I need to think? Where is that leading me? Is it helping me to fulfill my purpose and please my Maker? (I know the concept of "not thinking" may feels just as malignant as the concept of "God lied" feels to me, but bear with me here) I am truly trying to see what you are getting at based on what you have stated about God and satan based on the Genesis chapter.
It's what makes you you. Lets look at your 5 Senses. Sight, Hearing, Touch, Taste, Smell.
What makes you conscious of your 5 senses.
What makes you able to See? To notice a difference. If you can't see something then you are blind. If someone shines a light in your eyes and you don't blink.. you don't see the light.. then as it concerns that light source your are Blind.
If someone plays a sound and you don't hear it.. then as concern to that sound you are deaf.
If someone touches you and you don't feel it then as in concern to that person you have no sense of touch.
If someone puts something on your tongue and you don't taste it then as in concern to that substance you have no sense of taste.
If someone emits a smell in the air and you don't smell it as concern to that substance you lack a sense of smell.
Consciousness is being able to notice relative change from one state to the other. Thought is being able to access these changes to formulate what you believe is truth. If you can't do neither you are ignorant. If someone blocks that then to them you are a slave. It's simple. |
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Post by nsync on Apr 30, 2009 2:56:56 GMT -5
Vp so what are your thoughts on satan lying to Adam and Eve, because he clearly lied. He said they would not die if they ate the fruit from the tree. No only did he lie but he manipulated them into believing that there was reason to doubt what God told them.
Also earlier you stated that satan's aim is to destroy God. Is it safe to also conclude that in this text he was trying to destroy one of God's prized creations?
Do you honestly believe that satan gave Adam and Eve a gift, knowing his aim (as you mentioned earlier)?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 30, 2009 9:08:37 GMT -5
Here is what I believe I hear you asserting
Thats what you made him to perform in the first place. Adam was already tilling the ground from whence he came. Ohhhh because he wasn't conscious of it then it didn't matter. Now that he is conscious it matters... He never noticed the thorns and thistles... He never understood the sweat.... Now he does
This is how your logic builds. You say that Adam was meant to till the ground. You assert that he wasn't conscious of it. You say he becomes conscious of tilling the ground only after Satan. The crux of your argument relies on this being true. You also just added, the problem/solution paradigm to bolster the claim. What I am trying to point out to you is that the text doesn't support what you are asserting.
Let's start with your assertion that each time God does something it creation it is problem and solution. What does the text say... let's start from the beginning. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Hmmmmm... so where is the problem that necessitated this solution? The very first line of text defies your model - it begins with an act not a problem. Your model doesn't survive the very first test. In fact don't you have to spend a fair amount of time cherry picking events and erecting problems that they solve because many simply will not fit the model at all?
Actually you can. Creation isn't an exercise in problem solving - creation is more an act of divine art, there is not necessarily a problem to solve, but there is an expression to be made (in this case divine expression). God is making a work of art, and He happens to be doing it step by step. THAT is what you are witnessing in Genesis - not problem solving. This makes more sense when we note in the text that God stops to note that His work is good, during stages of development.
Second, man's innate purpose is praise. The masterpiece honors the master. That is purpose. Pointing out that someone had to till the ground at some point? That's a job - Adam got the job first (in Eden). But Bruh there is a difference between a job and a purpose. You can do one forever and never be fulfilled, and you can do the other for a second and suddenly have understanding that previously. Our jobs are not necessarily our purposes.
Third, there is absolutely nothing in the text that says Adam doesn't understand tilling the ground. It's just not in there. The text tells us the only thing he and Eve didn't know was the difference between right and wrong. It is by almost every stretch of the imagination an artificial constraint necessary only for your argument - but there is nothing in the text or subsequent reasoning that supports it. It's not even a question of wanting or not wanting to see it - it just isn't there.
Actually I'm probably putting more holes in your premise than proving it. Recall earlier you said:
See? You are saying that Satan provided them relative difference, and thought - and that God did not. As proof you note that they don't question God. All I point out to you is that they don't ask Satan anything either - so by your premise Satan didn't provide them with thought or difference either (as asserted above). If your argument is now that they are ignorant - then you are at least no longer arguing that Satan provided, free will, thought, choice, or conscience (because your example doesn't support it).
Skipping questions? Alright then...here's the answer to your question again:
God blocked Adam and Eve from death. I gave the reference in Romans 5:12 earlier. That is what came as part of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The knowlege of good and evil combined with free will is a path that leads to sin the wage of which is death. That is what God blocked.
Damie what you have up above is written nice but time and time again when it comes down to the truth even when its staring you right in the face... you refuse to acknowledge it. Now you are repeating to me pulpit sermons. Maybe you need to pose these questions to your preacher. If you keep reaching your arms are going to seriously fall off. I'm using the versus verbatim what they are saying and you coming with.... ? I haven't asserted one thing. The Book of Genesis has a rhythm to it from the beginning you can deal with it or you can't. I have the proof and you don't. It's simple.
You speak of purpose which shows you aren't ignorant of the truth but again you're being ignorant to it. The book of Genesis isn't moreso just a story of creation but a story of purpose. You said Genesis defies my model... but it doesn't. You keep pushing yourself into a corner and now you don't have a place to go. The God of the Bible creates the Heavens and the Earth... BUT
The Earth was Dark, Void and Without Form. <<<<<<<<<<<<
So God Gave it Light, Life, and Form.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No matter what you build on the outside... that above remains the truth exactly in that order. Now I say before your God as pertaining to the story for him to be God there could have not existed anything (Problem) so he fixed it with Creation (Solution) but it was only Darkness without Form and Void(Problem) and he gave it Light, Life, and Form( Solution.) If you come against that... lol.. You know the rest. Lets see again..
The God first stated it was not good for man to be alone.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The God causes a sleep on Adam and creates Eve.<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Rhythm again.
You said Adam purpose is to praise. I say per the story of Genesis Adam's purpose is to be a unconscious non-thinking ignorant slave. You use Romans..... I use Genesis.. Let's look back at what I have already explained what I am using is Genesis 2:5-15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=2&version=9
1. The God has the Seeds for all the trees but has no water nor a man to till the ground.
2. A mist (not attributed to the God) rises up out of the Earth and rain falls
3. The God then Makes Adam and puts him in the Garden
4. A river went out of Eden to water the Garden and it became 4 Rivers
then Genesis 2:15 15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Prove Adam was created to Praise.. using Genesis of course before this happened. I'll wait.
Furthermore with Satan you are missing the point totally. If you are running across the street and not see a Car coming and someone yells: Damie watch out! and you see the car then you move. Does the person who warned you not deserve credit?
Satan only told Eve an opposite of her Code. Because they were gullable they listened BUT did not become conscious until AFTER eating the Apple and noticing the difference then they used thought to make themselves leaves and hide. Its right in Genesis. If it were okay for them to be naked... why did your God clothe them after?
The fact remains.. Satan told them they would become Gods to have the knowledge of Good and Evil and your God confirmed it that they were indeed "one of us" Genesis 3:22
And since they had this knowledge your God feared they would next Eat from the tree of Life and live forever. Genesis 3:22
So because of that he drove man out of the Garden and bestowed upon him a punishment which he was already damn doing in the first place. Genesis 3:23
And protects the Tree of Life with cherubims and a sword in the East since man now has thought. Genesis 3:24
Lets see you use Genesis word for word to prove your point. Mine is iron clad and not matter how you try to spin it... the words remain right there for all to see. Now you have an Out here actually two outs which you could formulate 2 valid arguments to stifle what I'm stating using Genesis and Genesis alone but you're not even close to them at all. Lets see if you can figure them out or as always I will show you them later. The Clock is running. lol |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 30, 2009 9:15:25 GMT -5
Vp so what are your thoughts on satan lying to Adam and Eve, because he clearly lied. He said they would not die if they ate the fruit from the tree. No only did he lie but he manipulated them into believing that there was reason to doubt what God told them. Also earlier you stated that satan's aim is to destroy God. Is it safe to also conclude that in this text he was trying to destroy one of God's prized creations? Do you honestly believe that satan gave Adam and Eve a gift, knowing his aim (as you mentioned earlier)?
What are your thoughts? What do you believe? Show how Satan clearly lied? Show me with the Verses. Give us something to chew on. Up to this point you're being a conversational leach. Show some thought. Some initiative. Some Consciousness. Give me something to chew on so I can adequately address your stance. Do that then I will answer your questions above and provide proof using Genesis and Genesis alone. (smile). Surprise me. |
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Post by nsync on May 1, 2009 12:43:28 GMT -5
Fair enough. LOL But he's a "fallen angel" meaning when he stepped out of the "goodness" he was rejected. So that leads me to believe that angels must be perfect to maintain their "true" title. Interesting. I think the topic itself urges the participant to analyze God's divine majesty whether directly or indirectly. Well I guess it depends on your religious beliefs. For me it is extremely difficult to phathom that God is anything but righteous and all powerful. If you suggest that satan is the opposite then you are suggesting shared or competing power. No divine majesty there. If you suggest that satan is an active tool of God then you suggest that His majesty is not all good. One would have to attribute the negative/evil things that occur back to the source. If satan is the tool, then he is not the source, merely a means to bring about the plans of the source. he becomes a scapegoat if you will. So yeah this is way deep. My question is how does one reconcile this with what they understand about Good and evil. God, angels, heaven, hell, demons, satan...etc For my own reconciling I believe the trick here is OUR understanding of GOOD.PURE.LOVING Because what I have learned is that God is righteous. In my opinion righteous points to fairness, justification, balance, scales. etc. Is righteous the same thing as good? If God is the only force that can judge, then his decisions will not always be GOOD(as in nice friendly fluffy), but they will always be RIGHT( as in perfect). There is a distinct difference. Human interpretation is flawed. Not God. I mean think about it. In the bible it says God is a jealous God (this opens about two different cans of worms). What does that mean? In the new testment God saves the Israelites by flushing a slew of Egyptians off the face of the earth.Was that a good thing for those Egyptians? We have to look at this and say God is a JUST GOD. He is a warrior just as much as he is a father. He brings the law. He is the law. With the law their is balance NOT ALL "good things" as we understand good. etc.... NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION SMART PANTS!!! ;D Thanks. Vp so what are your thoughts on satan lying to Adam and Eve, because he clearly lied. He said they would not die if they ate the fruit from the tree. No only did he lie but he manipulated them into believing that there was reason to doubt what God told them. Also earlier you stated that satan's aim is to destroy God. Is it safe to also conclude that in this text he was trying to destroy one of God's prized creations? Do you honestly believe that satan gave Adam and Eve a gift, knowing his aim (as you mentioned earlier)?
What are your thoughts? What do you believe? Show how Satan clearly lied? Show me with the Verses. Give us something to chew on. Up to this point you're being a conversational leach. Show some thought. Some initiative. Some Consciousness. Give me something to chew on so I can adequately address your stance. Do that then I will answer your questions above and provide proof using Genesis and Genesis alone. (smile). Surprise me. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 1, 2009 16:04:44 GMT -5
No you don't. Since you want to contrain the argument to Genesis, let's do that. Where is it stated that there is a problem in Genesis? I'll tell you where... nowhere. The only place it appears is in your theory.
Again I ask for the word problem. Where is it? You do understand that your construct is an artificial constraint?
Yes I know but this is what's known as begging the question.
You haven't established that Adam was unconscious.
You have established that he was non-thinking.
You haven't established that he was ignorant.
You haven't even established that he was a slave.
Nothing that you conclude can be logically accepted. In fact all the evidence in the text points to the opposite of each thing you have already assumed as truth. As best I can tell your only rebuttal to these points was yet another unsupported theory that they were coded. Where? Where does it say, state, or imply this?
The only place it is exists is in your theory. What you are doing with this text would be like me arguing that because you were shunned by church leaders and ridiculed by church goers you are against Christianity. Where is my proof? All your anti-Christian posts. End of story right? What? How can you argue against it? You can't. I provided a theory, and what I assert is proof. Your obvious come back would be not only is my conclusion false but that I'm assuming things that are false to reach that conclusion. Quod Eratum Demonstratum... THAT is what I am telling you. Your arguments are unsupported theories, supported by unsupported theories, supported by more unsupported theories. It's like sword fighting with smoke... there's nothing to strike down because there's nothing there.
Now I answered your questions - feel free to answer mine. Who talked to Adam? Where is his relative difference? He didn't talk to the serpent. He didn't talk to Eve. He took the fruit and ate. So who did he talk to? Are you going to ignore this blaring contradiction? Running from it will not save you LOL. I'm gonna keep asking until you answer.
Are you missing the part where Satan lies? If I'm running across the street and someone yells Damie watch out - and there IS no car - what credit does he deserve? If you recall VP God warned about death, and Satan lied about it. So who should get credit is a good question to raise. One of them warned about actions that would lead to death, one lied and said that they wouldn't lead to death. Who do we give credit to? LOL Bruh you can't win this one.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 1, 2009 17:01:00 GMT -5
Same as my unsupported theory with the LCFO and Black Panthers? lol Listen you're Close on one but no cigar on the other Out. I'll give you another chance. I will check back later.. Oh yeah the irony of your stance is that you want all this proof though in word it is there.. but I wonder if your stance or shall I say the way you going about it would change is the argument was about Christianity as a whole.. Yeah you'd jump behind "faith" quickly. I'll check back later. Roo!
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 1, 2009 17:21:33 GMT -5
Same as my unsupported theory with the LCFO and Black Panthers? lol Listen you're Close on one but no cigar on the other Out. I'll give you another chance. I will check back later.. Oh yeah the irony of your stance is that you want all this proof though in word it is there.. but I wonder if your stance or shall I say the way you going about it would change is the argument was about Christianity as a whole.. Yeah you'd jump behind "faith" quickly. I'll check back later. Roo!
LCFO and black panther... Bruh, post your link and let's go at it (actually it was a semi-good read). If what you're saying survives peer review it increases in it's credibility. So post a link or a source that we can both examine (like we're doing with the Bible) and we'll have at it (whenever you get the chance).
Roo. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 1, 2009 17:22:58 GMT -5
Helpful Tools
Problem- is an obstacle that makes it difficult to achieve a desired goal, objective or purpose. It refers to a situation, condition or issue that is yet unresolved. When one becomes aware of a significant difference of what actually is and what is desired.
Solution- a method or statement on how to solve a problem. A method for solving a problem. The successful action of solving a problem.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 2, 2009 10:24:28 GMT -5
Interesting. I think the topic itself urges the participant to analyze God's divine majesty whether directly or indirectly. Well I guess it depends on your religious beliefs. For me it is extremely difficult to phathom that God is anything but righteous and all powerful. If you suggest that satan is the opposite then you are suggesting shared or competing power. No divine majesty there. If you suggest that satan is an active tool of God then you suggest that His majesty is not all good. One would have to attribute the negative/evil things that occur back to the source. If satan is the tool, then he is not the source, merely a means to bring about the plans of the source. he becomes a scapegoat if you will. So yeah this is way deep. My question is how does one reconcile this with what they understand about Good and evil. God, angels, heaven, hell, demons, satan...etc etc.... NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION SMART PANTS!!! ;D Thanks.
What are your thoughts? What do you believe? Show how Satan clearly lied? Show me with the Verses. Give us something to chew on. Up to this point you're being a conversational leach. Show some thought. Some initiative. Some Consciousness. Give me something to chew on so I can adequately address your stance. Do that then I will answer your questions above and provide proof using Genesis and Genesis alone. (smile). Surprise me.You entire stance is sermonal. You're preaching. Can you cite Genesis in some way and connect it with your thoughts? A theory without any cited data is.... |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 2, 2009 15:12:48 GMT -5
The reason why I use Genesis and Genesis alone is because it's the foundation for Judiasm, Christianity and in some respects Islam as well. I have no need to look at a derivative to prove the foundation. That's ass backwards. Roman's can't prove Genesis to be wrong or right.. Genesis on the other hand can prove or disprove everything that came after.
Damie your faith blinds you. Each and every statement you have written thus far are but futile attempts to not accept the truth. This is okay just know that the truth still remains. Now for your God to truly be omnipresent there has to not exist anything before Genesis 1:1 but your God. If you try to build a monument against that then you are effectively questioning the sole presence of your God as the first and only entity. You will destroy the Alpha and Omega model. Can you see how yet again you are destroying your faith with your own argument?
The book of genesis 1:1 states your god Created the heavens and the earth and it gives you a step by step process in rhythm of how your god did it. It also shows one word your god said that is proof his actions were the solution to the problem. The definition of Create is to bring into existence. Therefore before that per the definition it had to be nothing but your God which my friend is the initial problem. If you say thats a reach then you are stating that either... the universe was already here without form and your god fixed it and or if the former is true then your god can't be god as the universe existed before him.
Lets look at the initial problems and solutions again.
Problem #1 Your God sits alone. If this wasn't a problem he would've stayed alone. Instead he has a solution.
Solution #1 Genesis 1:1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Problem # 2 Genesis 1:2 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Then the next 29 Verses your God does many actions that bring about Solutions and new problems are noticed which bring forth more solutions immediately after. Lets see what your God states after each solution done to his liking.
Genesis 1:
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was GOOD.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was GOOD.
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was GOOD.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was GOOD
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was GOOD.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Good- Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor.
a. Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing
b. Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable
c. In excellent condition; sound
d. Of high quality
antonyms- bad, mediocre, evil
SEE ABOVE
I will refute your claims and also show where we are in agreement proves everything else. Damie you do know without thought there can be no consciousness right? You said above I did prove Adam was non-thinking. smdh
1. Conscious- 1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled THOUGHT or observation. done or acting with critical awareness ( Who talked to Adam? Where is his relative difference? He didn't talk to the serpent. He didn't talk to Eve. He took the fruit and ate. So who did he talk to?-Damie) Thanx so you DO agree he was unconscious.
2. Think- to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference. If one is non-thinking then he/she does NOT exercise the powers of judgment, conception or inference. You agreed with that.
3. Ignorant- destitute of KNOWLEDGE or education. ; also : lacking KNOWLEDGE and or comprehension of the thing specified. (Gen 2:17 17But of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, thou shalt NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) So Adam is Ignorant because of your God blocking this knowledge and it never says why until Gen 3:22-24
4.Slave- 1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another 2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence( Gen 2:5-7 demonstrates why Adam was created and Gen 2:17 makes him completely subservient to the dominating influence of God because of the lack of knowledge.)
No theories brother. The Data of Genesis is right there plain for you to see. You just refuse to accept it which is fine. But the truth still remains even if you don't accept it.
The irony is you have used 1 verse from the bible Romans 5:12. Thats it. You have expounded with many theories but you accuse me of using theories supported by unsupported theories? lol No thats what you are doing. I on the other hand have not deviated at all. Gen Chapters 1-3 verbatim. <<<That has been my evidence the entire time. Using it word for word. lol. You swinging wildly looking for the knock out or waiting for the co-sign. Bruh you're wrong. Dead Wrong. I have Theory and Data to support it and with every theory or statement I have made I have pointed you to the exact Genesis verse. Everytime. I do admire your Perseverance though I feel after this next blow I'm about to deal to you.... It will be fine time for you to fall on your sword.
Yanno I have a rhythm to my madness bruh. If you don't recognize the rhythm then you will lose. In any debate when one brings forth evidence there has to be a rhythm. If you plan on having your argument viewed with merit then it is imperative that you introduce variables into your argument and be prepared to answer them. You also must know the true anti-thesis to your stance and do everything in your power to keep it hidden from the other team. One of the best ways to do this is to put red herrings in your argument as bait in hopes that your opponent bites. When your opponent bites on a red hot red herring that if proven would destroy their stance.. you allow for your opponent to THINK they have an edge and therefore they build this up as there Main Anti-Thesis to your argument. You my friend took the bait and ate it whole as you thought because I didn't answer or acknowledge your sentiment that Satan lied to Adam and Eve about Death it was a preclusion of guilt as in concern to my premise being built of falsehood.
You believe Satan.
1.Lied to Adam and Eve about Death
2. God protected them from Death.
3. Confirm that Satan talked to Eve but NOT Adam.
Satan didn't lie about Death at all. Satan spoke to Eve and only Eve when he said.
Genesis3: 4And the serpent said unto the WOMAN, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
EVE then gives Adam the Apple and he eats. Now the faithful slave to Christianity will say that THIS proves Satan lied. They will then show you
Genesis 5:5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and HE died.
What they don't know because the Preacher doesn't tell them and if they do read they read through the eyes of faith is that.... EVE NEVER DIES. NO WHERE. NO WHERE IN THE BYBULL DOES IT STATE EVE DIES. EVER. Before your preach sexism please note in old testament it shows that Sarah Dies, Deborah dies, Rachel dies, Miriam dies, Jezebel dies. but NO EVE.
Checkmate.
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 4, 2009 9:51:50 GMT -5
LOL - it can only prove something wrong if it's TRUE VP - your position can't even be reconciled with itself. You are trying to to debate the truth of a text that you consider to be false. That is a snake swallowing itself my friend. If the text has truth, then the God of the Bible exists. If you say the God of the Bible doesn't exist then you can argue nothing about the text. 
LOL and know that you haven't spoken it.
Hmmm perhaps you don't understand my argument. It is as follows: Satan didn't give man anything but sin. As best I can tell that has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about above.
And right here is where you beg the question. Who says it's the initial problem? Who says it's a problem at all. Certainly not the text. Even your own defintion of create is to bring into existence - NOT bring into existence to solve or mitigate a problem. It's not assumed or implied. That is YOUR construct. Your hypothesis. The way you would show it's correct is by demonstrating that the ONLY reason why God would create would be to solve a problem - and I've already showed that He could do it simply to create a masterpiece as an expression. Your hypothesis doesn't hold, and therefore any conclusion drawn from it likewise does not hold.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 4, 2009 11:49:09 GMT -5
<<Gives Damie another chance to provide a better come back than above.
Please Note
Damie's theme music while he gathers another response or decides to stick with what he has chosen to do.
Just as the looped riff states... HIS BACK'S AGAINST THE WALL. lol
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 4, 2009 12:22:34 GMT -5
<<Gives Damie another chance to provide a better come back than above.
Please Note
To reiterate:
Who says it's creation was a result of a problem? Certainly not the text. Even your own defintion of create is to bring into existence - NOT bring into existence to solve or mitigate a problem. It's not assumed or implied. That is YOUR construct. Your hypothesis. The way you would show it's correct is by demonstrating that the ONLY reason why God would create would be to solve a problem - and I've already showed that He could do it simply to create a masterpiece as an expression. Your hypothesis doesn't hold, and therefore any conclusion drawn from it likewise does not hold.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 5, 2009 18:08:12 GMT -5
So I destroy your argument and now you say how can I argue about something I don't believe in? Is my argument confirmation that God of the bible existed? Actually my stance from the beginning was that I would enter into this debate soley for the discussion even though I knew it was false. I came to the front door of Judeao/Christianity, stepped in its house and with truth using Judeao/Christianity and Judeao/Christianity alone caused it to fold in on itself and reduced it to ruble.
Is this the best that you could do? You do realize that my argument from the beginning was set from within the story. Here is a straw man. If somone says to me that 2 + 2= 5. If I step into the argument and show that 2 +2 doesn't = 5 and show how it is impossible does that mean I believed the original premise? Certainly not. What you are attempting to do is now use bias again by stating since I don't believe in it how can I argue with in it. My aim was never to prove Christianity but to show the meek how fallible it is. Using the text alone. I proved your God was a lier in the story. I proved your God made Adam to be a worker in the story. I basically proved your God IS NOT God using your text and your text alone....
Prove it with Genesis. Show me where Eve dies and you can shut me up. Even you said Satan spoke only to Eve. Well when did she die Damie....? If you can't show when Eve dies per the story that proves your God is a lie. Who said that your God would lie?
Damie this isn't begging anything. You are fighting to remain ignorant for what reason? Why would something be created Damie? I mean so what are you saying as per the story humans have no purpose? If there is not an intial problem then there can be no purpose. If something is created NOT to fill a Void then that means human lives mean nothing at all. That means all this chit is a game. So which shall you choose. Creation was done to fill a Void (Problem) OR Creation was done not to fill a void but just something for the "God" to do..
What you don't realize is that the story of Genesis shows that your "God" isn't God at all. The story of Genesis when read by the refined shows that the God presented has more imperfections than anything. Meaning it was a man.
I have showed
#1. The "God" of the bible creation was imperfect coming upon problem after problem or for you Void after Void which it filled.
#2 It made man soley to be a worker and cultivate the Garden
#3 Blocked Man and Woman from knowledge of Good and Evil
#4 Couldn't stop the Serpent who gives Man and Woman there freedom by setting the stage
#5 Punishes the Man and Woman never saying that they will die but instead gives them punishments one that Adam was already doing
#6 Blocks the entrance to the Garden at the EAST with a Flaming Sword and Cherubim to protect the Tree of Life
#7 Lastly showed the "God" was a lier as Adam died at 930 years but Eve never dies at all the only person whom the Serpent directly spoke to.
We really should be done here. Read your bible more my brother. In order for you to break those chains... you have to first realize you are in shackles. Only then can you be free. Read it for yourself with an open mind...
"You have this mark as you embark on a spiritual journey. When you encounter the gatekeepers of the realms.. show them and they will surely allow passage- Vudu Prince" 
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 5, 2009 20:15:41 GMT -5
Okay first... what you are doing above is argument by analogy - not a strawman. You can turn an argument by analogy into a strawman, but one is not inherently the other
Second... my question was not only simple it was a legitimate question. You can't argue that the events in the Bible didn't happen... and then argue this is the way they happened. They either happened or they didn't - the end. To use your math analogy you cannot argue
2 + 2 = 5
or
2 + 2 =/= 5
if you assert that neither 2 nor 5 exist and that addition has never happened.
The only way for you to enter the debate is to speak purely hypothetical. If you can only speak in pure hypotheticals - you cannot prove or disprove ANYTHING. All you can do is state a hypothesis... you can't assert ANY truth.
LOL - too easy. Finally wanna use the text eh? Good let's address this. There is no recordation of when Eve died in Genesis which is why you are now interested in just focusing on her and only Genesis. But arguing by semantics won't help you. You no doubt know that in Genesis it IS explicitily stated that Adam died. Satan said he would not. He didn't have to talk to Adam for it to be a lie. And as ridiculous as it is to assume that she lived forever when she didn't eat from the Tree of life, we don't have to see Eve die to know that the serpent lied because Adam DID die. And ALL of this came from JUST Genesis.
All I can tell you is that the assumption that every action has as it's motivation "a problem" is logically flawed. I didn't go see Wolverine last weekend because there was "a problem". I didn't remix Charlie Wilson's song on Jamglue because there was "a problem". I didn't join OO because there was "a problem".
I have showed
#1. The "God" of the bible creation was imperfect coming upon problem after problem or for you Void after Void which it filled.
#2 It made man soley to be a worker and cultivate the Garden
#3 Blocked Man and Woman from knowledge of Good and Evil
#4 Couldn't stop the Serpent who gives Man and Woman there freedom by setting the stage
#5 Punishes the Man and Woman never saying that they will die but instead gives them punishments one that Adam was already doing
#6 Blocks the entrance to the Garden at the EAST with a Flaming Sword and Cherubim to protect the Tree of Life
#7 Lastly showed the "God" was a lier as Adam died at 930 years but Eve never dies at all the only person whom the Serpent directly spoke to.
We really should be done here. Read your bible more my brother. In order for you to break those chains... you have to first realize you are in shackles. Only then can you be free. Read it for yourself with an open mind...
And now I use the vintage patented VP comprehensive strike through. Still the funniest OO debate maneuver ever. LOL. ;D
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;D 
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? I haven't asserted one thing. The Book of Genesis has a rhythm to it from the beginning you can deal with it or you can't. I have the proof and you don't. It's simple.