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Post by Cambist on Apr 27, 2009 14:05:25 GMT -5
I hold that "Satan" is not 100% evil.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 27, 2009 14:20:23 GMT -5
I hold that "Satan" is not 100% evil. I counter that his aim out weighs his traits as within this construct. Thats like a guy on Death Row who is about to be wrongfully electrocuted but they give him a meal before it happens. lol uh nopers |
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2009 17:28:33 GMT -5
Hmmnnn interesting thread indeed.
I agree that satan operates within confines. If that is the case then that means he is DEFINATELY not God's opposite.
So the question becomes can something be 100% evil and NOT be an opposite of that which is 100% good.
Then you start to tread in some murky waters.
I don't have the answers.
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2009 17:31:39 GMT -5
Also is God the only 100% Good force? What about angels?
Does perfection actually denote good?
If satan is not 100% evil then what is the good that he does?
These are just some food for thought questions.
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Post by huey on Apr 27, 2009 18:17:22 GMT -5
Also is God the only 100% Good force? What about angels? Does perfection actually denote good? If satan is not 100% evil then what is the good that he does? These are just some food for thought questions. if angels were 100% good, we wouldn't have this problem with Lucifer! lol |
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2009 22:36:13 GMT -5
Fair enough. LOL But he's a "fallen angel" meaning when he stepped out of the "goodness" he was rejected.
So that leads me to believe that angels must be perfect to maintain their "true" title.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 27, 2009 23:00:42 GMT -5
"Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god.
Da Straw..
A virus has proteins nucleic acids etc which are good compounds.. virtually harmless BUT its genetic information is coded most times to destroy the host cell it infects. So the AIM of the Virus seeking to destroy the cell is opposite of life is totally evil if life is seen as good. The puddin is the Aim not the make up.
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Post by Cambist on Apr 28, 2009 7:33:02 GMT -5
Here is where my biblical scholar friends may want to "straighten me out" as I am NOT a biblical scholar.....
Here are my questions that make it hard for me to believe that Satan is anything other than a tool of God and therefore not pure evil or God's perfect opposite.
1. Satan (if we are saying that he is Lucifer and the Devil) was at one time a member of God's "crew". He was still a creation of God and therefore could not be His opposite as it would imply that Satan and God exist diametrically as equals.
2. Satan tried to tempt Christ. How does this work? How does Satan do this if:
a. Jesus, as part of the Trinity IS, in fact God in the flesh.
b. Satan knows this
3. It has been my understanding that Satan is simply here to be the temptor and prosecutor in what i've called a sick and twisted "gift" of free will. Satan has no real power on his own. He makes nothing happen without permission.
Satan is a tool. He is like the instructor at a military special forces training facility. He's trying to get you to quit but he has no real power to take you out of the game without legal cause.
An example is the Book of Job. Satan did nothing without God's permission. God even SUGGESTED that Satan hurt Job.
Perfect? I guess if you ask this in the context of Satan doing his job as God District Attorney then yes.
Perfectly evil? Not anymore than Judas. He is carrying out the plan. To think otherwise would bring into question God's divine majesty.
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 8:02:59 GMT -5
Why does the virus seek to destroy the cell? It needs the cell to live right? To reproduce correct? Man this right here is deep if you start to think about life slightly outside of religion and in terms of science. "Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god. Da Straw.. A virus has proteins nucleic acids etc which are good compounds.. virtually harmless BUT its genetic information is coded most times to destroy the host cell it infects. So the AIM of the Virus seeking to destroy the cell is opposite of life is totally evil if life is seen as good. The puddin is the Aim not the make up. |
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 8:10:30 GMT -5
Interesting. I think the topic itself urges the participant to analyze God's divine majesty whether directly or indirectly. Well I guess it depends on your religious beliefs. For me it is extremely difficult to phathom that God is anything but righteous and all powerful. If you suggest that satan is the opposite then you are suggesting shared or competing power. No divine majesty there. If you suggest that satan is an active tool of God then you suggest that His majesty is not all good. One would have to attribute the negative/evil things that occur back to the source. If satan is the tool, then he is not the source, merely a means to bring about the plans of the source. he becomes a scapegoat if you will. So yeah this is way deep. My question is how does one reconcile this with what they understand about Good and evil. God, angels, heaven, hell, demons, satan...etc. Here is where my biblical scholar friends may want to "straighten me out" as I am NOT a biblical scholar..... Here are my questions that make it hard for me to believe that Satan is anything other than a tool of God and therefore not pure evil or God's perfect opposite. 1. Satan (if we are saying that he is Lucifer and the Devil) was at one time a member of God's "crew". He was still a creation of God and therefore could not be His opposite as it would imply that Satan and God exist diametrically as equals. 2. Satan tried to tempt Christ. How does this work? How does Satan do this if: a. Jesus, as part of the Trinity IS, in fact God in the flesh. b. Satan knows this 3. It has been my understanding that Satan is simply here to be the temptor and prosecutor in what i've called a sick and twisted "gift" of free will. Satan has no real power on his own. He makes nothing happen without permission. Satan is a tool. He is like the instructor at a military special forces training facility. He's trying to get you to quit but he has no real power to take you out of the game without legal cause. An example is the Book of Job. Satan did nothing without God's permission. God even SUGGESTED that Satan hurt Job. Perfect? I guess if you ask this in the context of Satan doing his job as God District Attorney then yes. Perfectly evil? Not anymore than Judas. He is carrying out the plan. To think otherwise would bring into question God's divine majesty. |
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 8:18:20 GMT -5
For my own reconciling I believe the trick here is OUR understanding of GOOD.PURE.LOVING
Because what I have learned is that God is righteous. In my opinion righteous points to fairness, justification, balance, scales. etc. Is righteous the same thing as good? If God is the only force that can judge, then his decisions will not always be GOOD(as in nice friendly fluffy), but they will always be RIGHT( as in perfect). There is a distinct difference.
Human interpretation is flawed. Not God.
I mean think about it. In the bible it says God is a jealous God (this opens about two different cans of worms). What does that mean? In the new testment God saves the Israelites by flushing a slew of Egyptians off the face of the earth.Was that a good thing for those Egyptians?
We have to look at this and say God is a JUST GOD. He is a warrior just as much as he is a father. He brings the law. He is the law.
With the law their is balance NOT ALL "good things" as we understand good.
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Post by huey on Apr 28, 2009 8:37:12 GMT -5
"Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god. This still makes no sense to me. So someone's aim is what makes them perfect? I agree with Cam. God allows Satan to exist. Just as he allows evil, adversity, trials and tribulations to exist. They HAVE to exist here on earth. If they don't what would seperate earth from heaven. What would then be the point? What IS the point? LOL |
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 10:07:44 GMT -5
So what exactly are you saying about God? "Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god. This still makes no sense to me. So someone's aim is what makes them perfect? I agree with Cam. God allows Satan to exist. Just as he allows evil, adversity, trials and tribulations to exist. They HAVE to exist here on earth. If they don't what would seperate earth from heaven. What would then be the point? What IS the point? LOL |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 10:44:13 GMT -5
Why does the virus seek to destroy the cell? It needs the cell to live right? To reproduce correct? Man this right here is deep if you start to think about life slightly outside of religion and in terms of science. "Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god. Da Straw.. A virus has proteins nucleic acids etc which are good compounds.. virtually harmless BUT its genetic information is coded most times to destroy the host cell it infects. So the AIM of the Virus seeking to destroy the cell is opposite of life is totally evil if life is seen as good. The puddin is the Aim not the make up. The Virus doesn't seek to "live" only to destruct so it doesn't care about living because technically it isn't alive. What makes a Virus dangerous is the transmission more so than the Virus. How fast can it infect and replicate. The more it infects and replicates the bigger presence it has and the easier it will be for it to pass on. The more it passes on the more it will mutate and be harder to destroy. Now I used a Virus as the straw for a reason. A Virus needs a cell(fluid mediums included in sum instances) to live.. Both "God" and "Satan" need humans. Every law that has been spoken of in here that the Devil is bound too...so is God. You don't realize it because of what the scripture says but think about it... The mere fact that "God" needs prophets shows that in this instance he isn't absolute. The fact that God witholds information shows in this instance he isn't absolute. The fact that Man has free will shows in this instance God truly isn't God. He has to sway man for his allegiance the same as Satan has to do. I'm trying to stay within the premise of the convo here but when the facts start to elevate it becomes obvious who is really in charge who is really the ultimate decision maker... You. |
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 11:05:52 GMT -5
So what exactly are you saying about God?
Secondly how can I be in charge when I didnt create myself? If I am in charge then I will be in charge from day one.
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Apr 28, 2009 11:18:33 GMT -5
Why does the virus seek to destroy the cell? It needs the cell to live right? To reproduce correct? Man this right here is deep if you start to think about life slightly outside of religion and in terms of science. . REALLY? This may sound like a dumb question, but exaclty what do they need us for? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 12:46:26 GMT -5
"Satan's" aim is what makes him perfect. There is no deviation in that "he" seeks to destroy god. Just because "Satan" has some good traits are of no consequence when his aim is absolute..the destruction of god. This still makes no sense to me. So someone's aim is what makes them perfect? I agree with Cam. God allows Satan to exist. Just as he allows evil, adversity, trials and tribulations to exist. They HAVE to exist here on earth. If they don't what would seperate earth from heaven. What would then be the point? What IS the point? LOL Exactly what is the point? Why would Allah create Iblis? Did he really though? Are those really Iblis words that exist in the book verbally given to Prophet Muhammad by Jebril(Gabriel)? Would Iblis and the rest of the Jinn say they were created by Allah? Would Allah lie to sway you to believe in him? Would Allah kill for you to believe him? What do you think about East African Spiritualist who conjure the concept of the Jinn and make them manifest in the physical? Thats something that you have to wrestle with because I'm not a Muslim. Been there done that and it you're right it doesn't make sense. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 13:23:50 GMT -5
So what exactly are you saying about God? Secondly how can I be in charge when I didnt create myself? If I am in charge then I will be in charge from day one. -Outtie
REALLY? This may sound like a dumb question, but exaclty what do they need us for?-Logakal
Well in this construct I'm stating God isn't God. I wasn't really trying to go there though. Look at the systematic approach that the God does in this construct of Christianity. Here are the three verses that allowed me to break free from Christianity.
Genesis 3:22-24
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
So understand the notion in this construct based on what the text says... God didn't give man free will... Satan did. The Angels are not alive but are more coded programs to carry out a function kinda like a....Virus which also has no free will.
Why does God/Satan in this construct need us... Well what makes God God? What makes Satan Satan? Their aim is what makes them and the ability to get others to believe. If nobody believes then what...? So you threaten someone with eternal death...who won you or them? They still don't believe. You tortue someone here on earth who won you or them..they still don't believe.
Whenever a entity uses harm as a residual affect for non belief I question the validity of whom it is stated they are. The thing is thee true absolute needs no prophets. The true absolute needs no warnings. The true absolute needs no threats of retribution. Everyone submits inately no question and we know the consequences.
It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you?
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Apr 28, 2009 13:31:56 GMT -5
So understand the notion in this construct based on what the text says... God didn't give man free will... Satan did. The Angels are not alive but are more coded programs to carry out a function kinda like a....Virus which also has no free will. 1. Thanks for answering. 2. WOW!!!!!!! I've NEVER looked at it like that! WOW! |
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Post by huey on Apr 28, 2009 13:51:29 GMT -5
It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you? You choose your Ori, before you come to earth.  |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 14:26:57 GMT -5
It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you? You choose your Ori, before you come to earth. What you know about your Ori? lol lemme find out. You gonna hav BKUP come in here and charge you up! So since you went there... Are you your Ori or a manifestation of it? Did you choose your Ori or did it choose you? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 28, 2009 14:38:48 GMT -5
So what exactly are you saying about God? Secondly how can I be in charge when I didnt create myself? If I am in charge then I will be in charge from day one. -Outtie REALLY? This may sound like a dumb question, but exaclty what do they need us for?-Logakal Well in this construct I'm stating God isn't God. I wasn't really trying to go there though. Look at the systematic approach that the God does in this construct of Christianity. Here are the three verses that allowed me to break free from Christianity. Genesis 3:22-24
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.So understand the notion in this construct based on what the text says... God didn't give man free will... Satan did. The Angels are not alive but are more coded programs to carry out a function kinda like a....Virus which also has no free will. Why does God/Satan in this construct need us... Well what makes God God? What makes Satan Satan? Their aim is what makes them and the ability to get others to believe. If nobody believes then what...? So you threaten someone with eternal death...who won you or them? They still don't believe. You tortue someone here on earth who won you or them..they still don't believe. Whenever a entity uses harm as a residual affect for non belief I question the validity of whom it is stated they are. The thing is thee true absolute needs no prophets. The true absolute needs no warnings. The true absolute needs no threats of retribution. Everyone submits inately no question and we know the consequences. It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you?
Genesis 3 in it's entirety demonstrates that Satan did NOT give free will to man... Satan gave sin. In fact you won't see the word associated with man's actions until AFTER the representation of Satan does his work with Adam and Eve. Read the passage for yourself and see if God refers to Adam and Eve's disobedience as sin. It is sin that brings spiritual death, and THAT is what God warned against.
Free will is choice. Without choice, neither Adam nor Eve could have even hearkend to the representation of the devil. So how could the devil give a gift that was required for him to even be heard? He could not - the gift was already given by God.
Okay end interjection... back to your discussion. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 14:51:13 GMT -5
So what exactly are you saying about God? Secondly how can I be in charge when I didnt create myself? If I am in charge then I will be in charge from day one. -Outtie REALLY? This may sound like a dumb question, but exaclty what do they need us for?-Logakal Well in this construct I'm stating God isn't God. I wasn't really trying to go there though. Look at the systematic approach that the God does in this construct of Christianity. Here are the three verses that allowed me to break free from Christianity. Genesis 3:22-24
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.So understand the notion in this construct based on what the text says... God didn't give man free will... Satan did. The Angels are not alive but are more coded programs to carry out a function kinda like a....Virus which also has no free will. Why does God/Satan in this construct need us... Well what makes God God? What makes Satan Satan? Their aim is what makes them and the ability to get others to believe. If nobody believes then what...? So you threaten someone with eternal death...who won you or them? They still don't believe. You tortue someone here on earth who won you or them..they still don't believe. Whenever a entity uses harm as a residual affect for non belief I question the validity of whom it is stated they are. The thing is thee true absolute needs no prophets. The true absolute needs no warnings. The true absolute needs no threats of retribution. Everyone submits inately no question and we know the consequences. It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you?
Genesis 3 in it's entirety demonstrates that Satan did NOT give free will to man... Satan gave sin. In fact you won't see the word associated with man's actions until AFTER the representation of Satan does his work with Adam and Eve. Read the passage for yourself and see if God refers to Adam and Eve's disobedience as sin. It is sin that brings spiritual death, and THAT is what God warned against.
Free will is choice. Without choice, neither Adam nor Eve could have even hearkend to the representation of the devil. So how could the devil give a gift that was required for him to even be heard? He could not - the gift was already given by God.
Okay end interjection... back to your discussion. I beg to differ... If God gave Adam and Eve free will then why not give them the choice of eating or not eating from the tree? There was no choice. Don't Eat. It was Satan who came along and said naw he lying you'd be able to see. Go ahead... the "choice" is yours.. You acting like Satan took the apple and said to Eve ' Eat the Cake Anna Mae" naw he didn't do that. lol. He gave an explanation and allowed them to choose. Again with the tree of life ... God robs man of his free will to partake in the tree of life by driving him out of the garden and placing cherubims and a flaming sword to protect it. It shows a lack of control. How can you not control what you created? So God gave Adam and Eve free will and didn't even have the decency to tell them they were naked? Yeah this God in this construct is umm umm. |
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Post by Ms. RedamnDickulous on Apr 28, 2009 15:25:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I hollered farreals at Satan possibly saying, "eat the cake Anna Mae."
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Post by nsync on Apr 28, 2009 15:44:12 GMT -5
I did not create my physical nor my spiritual. I did not determine where I would be born and whom Id would be born to in what part of the world or universe for that matter. I didnt chose my race nor my sex. I did not create the intial me. LOL However a life force greater than myself created me. As far as control. That is another issue. Who has the control once life is created is up for debate. I may be able to control my individual actions but I can not control others nor my ultimate shared fate of the loss of physical life. So I still maintain that the ultimate control comes from another source. Not myself. Are saying that I am apart of the source? Even if I am apart of that source I am not that source. Even if that source is within me I am not that source. I am merely an extension of it. real power is at the source. It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 16:28:06 GMT -5
I did not create my physical nor my spiritual. I did not determine where I would be born and whom Id would be born to in what part of the world or universe for that matter. I didnt chose my race nor my sex. I did not create the intial me. LOL However a life force greater than myself created me. As far as control. That is another issue. Who has the control once life is created is up for debate. I may be able to control my individual actions but I can not control others nor my ultimate shared fate of the loss of physical life. So I still maintain that the ultimate control comes from another source. Not myself. Are saying that I am apart of the source? Even if I am apart of that source I am not that source. Even if that source is within me I am not that source. I am merely an extension of it. real power is at the source. It was stated you didn't create "yourself". Well what is the "self"? Is it the physical? Is it conciousness? If it's the latter do you have free will on how you think? If so then can it be seen as your perception of relative differences and your path arriving at truth is creation of the "self"? What makes you you? Did God do that or you? What makes the source greater... It's design or it's ability to stay hidden? If you use the Christian model then it states in Genesis " Man has become one of US, to know the knowledge of Good and Evil" Meaning Adam and Eve now have a CHOICE. They now have Free Will which up to that point they didn't have. Here is a combined quote from one of my old dusty occult books. "Clearly if there is no thinker there can be no thought and if there is no thought there can be no denial. Consequently where there is no change, no relative conditions, there can be no consciousness."Think about that. Going back to the Virus concept. What makes Bacteria different from a Virus outside of the make up? Bacteria actually "think". They are life itself because Bacteria have free will just like everything else that is alive. You have no right to choice because you don't know they you are ignorant. If you do know but are robbed of that right by force physical or spiritual then you are forced slavery. In closing if you look at the Christian Model and Genesis 3 22-24 it shows many things but mainly the only thing that separates Man from God is knowledge. Once you have the knowledge then the God of the bible knows it will not be revered so it seeks to "hide" that knowledge hold it as its own and blind you with faith. I don't think God is like this which is why it was easy for me to eave Christianity alone after I got over the fear of retribution which is what truly keeps the churches, synagogues and mosques filled. Here is a interesting perspective from one of my favorite movies... except I disagree that "God" in this construct didn't give man spiritual free will. The interesting thing stated in the clip by Pacino is " I only set the stage.. you pull your own strings" Devils Advocate |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 28, 2009 16:54:50 GMT -5
I am beginning to HATE this section of the board. Sorry for the hijack but I have to give this correction. You all can go on discussing after this quick break.
Genesis 3 in it's entirety demonstrates that Satan did NOT give free will to man... Satan gave sin. In fact you won't see the word associated with man's actions until AFTER the representation of Satan does his work with Adam and Eve. Read the passage for yourself and see if God refers to Adam and Eve's disobedience as sin. It is sin that brings spiritual death, and THAT is what God warned against.
Free will is choice. Without choice, neither Adam nor Eve could have even hearkend to the representation of the devil. So how could the devil give a gift that was required for him to even be heard? He could not - the gift was already given by God.
Okay end interjection... back to your discussion. I beg to differ... If God gave Adam and Eve free will then why not give them the choice of eating or not eating from the tree? There was no choice. Don't Eat. It was Satan who came along and said naw he lying you'd be able to see. Go ahead... the "choice" is yours.. You acting like Satan took the apple and said to Eve ' Eat the Cake Anna Mae" naw he didn't do that. lol. He gave an explanation and allowed them to choose. Again with the tree of life ... God robs man of his free will to partake in the tree of life by driving him out of the garden and placing cherubims and a flaming sword to protect it. It shows a lack of control. How can you not control what you created? So God gave Adam and Eve free will and didn't even have the decency to tell them they were naked? Yeah this God in this construct is umm umm.
Plus the tree of life represented Eternal Life. Where (as you would say) within the construct of Christianity are you denied Eternal life? You can still participate in it... even now.  |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Apr 28, 2009 17:43:43 GMT -5
I beg to differ... If God gave Adam and Eve free will then why not give them the choice of eating or not eating from the tree? There was no choice. Don't Eat. It was Satan who came along and said naw he lying you'd be able to see. Go ahead... the "choice" is yours.. You acting like Satan took the apple and said to Eve ' Eat the Cake Anna Mae" naw he didn't do that. lol. He gave an explanation and allowed them to choose. Again with the tree of life ... God robs man of his free will to partake in the tree of life by driving him out of the garden and placing cherubims and a flaming sword to protect it. It shows a lack of control. How can you not control what you created? So God gave Adam and Eve free will and didn't even have the decency to tell them they were naked? Yeah this God in this construct is umm umm.
Plus the tree of life represented Eternal Life. Where (as you would say) within the construct of Christianity are you denied Eternal life? You can still participate in it... even now. No I don't think we are. Until Satan came along and questioned the validity of what Adam and Eve believed they were spiritually ignorant. They didn't have free will. They didn't question. The advent of Satan shows how powerless the God of the bible is. IF Adam and Eve alone ate from the tree of good and evil without the help of Satan then you'd have a point. IF the god of the bible after Adam and Eve "have become one of us" didn't drive Adam and Eve out of the Garden and also "protect" the Tree of Life then you'd have a point. If what "Satan" said to Eve wasn't later confirmed by "God" you'd have a point. Sadly none of the aforementioned are true. When you read Gen 3 22-24 in context for what it truly is then its obvious.... The God of the Bible first robs man of free will through Ignorance with Fear of Death. The God of the Bible then robs man of free will through force with spiritual slavery. Now lets look at this and tell me based on the story who is the lier and who gives free will... God first says:
Genesis 2:16-17
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Satan Says:
Genesis 3:3-5
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
God then Says:
Genesis 3:21-24
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Dizam so up until Satan.... "God" didn't even have the decency to clothe them. He had to make them coats of skins because now they knew they were naked... but you say they had free will? Now if the preacher chop and screw the lyrics so the "God" can save face and the masses believe then okay cool. But as the story goes... God doesn't give man free will he inhibits it and wishes to keep man ignorant. He lies to man's face but says the truth behind his back. Satan told Adam and Eve that God knows you will become Gods to know good and evil.... and the god of the bible confirms it. Like my quote said if their is no thinker then there is no thought and if there is no thought then there can be no denial. God didn't spur Adam and Eve to think...... Satan did. God didn't set the stage of true outcomes with relative differences which is how you arrive at consciousness..... Satan did. You can't lie and give a ficticious outcome and say thats free will. It was a lie and the god of the bible confirmed it was a lie by affirming that Man had indeed "become one of us" IF your God told Adam "If you eat from the tree of life you will become one of us to know the knowledge of good and evil" then you'd have a point.... but from the text he didn't do that. He instead chose to keep man Ignorant. You can't take credit for something both you and the other entity do not acknowledge. Free will is first achieved by thought. Adam and Eve before Satan were not thinkers... they just believed without question. Thats not free will... thats ignorance. God then protects the Tree of Life with a cherubims and flaming swords... thats not free will thats slavery by force. You will then realize the only "Hell" is the lack of knowledge. Even your boy JC said that but if we go that route then the rabbit hole opens up to who Jesus as it pertains to the story was really connecting to.
Hosea 4:6
6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.Hmmpf so I wonder what would Jesus have said to Adam and Eve.... interesting. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 28, 2009 21:02:04 GMT -5
The representation of Satan (the serpent) did not question the validity of what God told them, the serpent told them the exact opposite of what God said. So either God lied or Satan lied - they couldn't have both told the truth.
Given what you know about them which one do you think lied? God said they would die. Let's examine the evidence. Did Adam die? Did Eve die? Did either of them live forever? Who said they would not die? That was Satan right? So which one told the truth?
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12-14;&version=31;
I can see that the lynch pin of your argument is going to require:
a) That Adam and Eve were ignorant before speaking to Satan
b) that after talking with the Serpent man begin to think
c) Thought is required for free will
a) I would take issue with your claim of ignorance on the part of Adam and Eve. God didn't say don't eat of "that tree over there" He told them not to eat from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". They already KNEW what is was before Satan got there.
b) The only new piece of information given to Adam and Eve that God didn't already impart to them before was Satan's assertion that they would not die (which of course turned out to be a lie). Where is Satan sparking them to think written in the text? Where does it say that Adam or Eve thought about anything? They say that the fruit was good for food and pleasing to the eye - but this was already known in the previous Chapter. We already know it's not just a tree, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What is the only new piece of information? The lie that they wouldn't die. Does following Satan's counsel demonstrate thought? If so, then weren't they demonstrating thought when they were following God's counsel previously? And if so, don't we have to give God credit for thought? Take it a step further... if Adam was unable to think before talking to Satan, how is it that he's naming animals as God brings them by? How does he know that animals need to be named? Take it a step further - is it possible to communicate at ALL without thought? Isn't Adam talking to God. Doesn't Satan actually have to talk with Eve to lie to her?
c) This is a semantic argument - does the ability to choose come with conscience or does it come with thought. Again a semantics argument - you could argue this one alot of different ways and be right. For instance I could argue to choose, you must think, to think you must have conscience. Of course if that's true then you can't really argue that Satan gave man free will. The one that gave man free will was the One that gave him conscience. And that would be...
...yeah you guessed it God. ;D ;D
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Post by huey on Apr 28, 2009 21:45:18 GMT -5
Just dawned on me...what the heck is a tree of god and evil doing in Paradise?
I'm not well read in scripture, so maybe someone can explain that to me, thanks.
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