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Post by T-Rex91 on Jun 26, 2008 15:31:12 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the advisor is typically not subject to censure unless there's evidence that they were collusive in the matter. They aren't formally penalized for being asleep at the wheel. They are typically quietly replaced by the grad chapter governing that UG chapter.
What if in Delta the case went to court
How does your org deal with the advisor? I'm not sure I understand the question Troopa. There's an internal investigation regardless and that determines what internal action is taken (censure). Externally, If a person sues the sorority AND individuals including the advisor, that advisor is responsible for defending themselves legally as an individual. If the person doesn't name the advisor individually, the results of the internal investigation still may affect her. Did I answer the question? |
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Post by Troopa1911 on Jun 26, 2008 15:47:00 GMT -5
Okay I got'cha.
I was asking mainly from a law suit stand point... if your advisors are the focal point after the org (Delta) has been call out by the plantiff.
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Post by huey on Jun 27, 2008 8:16:22 GMT -5
It's not so much as "Will Kappa Ever Learn" It's more about will young men ever learn?
Kappa has and does constantly trained it's chapter officers, advisors and it's collegiates (undergrads) on our stance regarding hazing. We have conferences throughout the year where proper instruction is given, also the ramifications of hazing are discussed at great lengths in order to show that hazing doesn't make a good brother. So it's not about Will Kappa Ever Learn....Kappa Learned back in 1993 however it's hard to make some people understand.
At a certain organizations regionals troopa there was a room of vendors selling para. The fact that there was a vendor selling shirts of a man holding would and listing why its good to pledge and other shirts relating to pledging, made me think that the organization did not take the issue of hazing as too too seriously. Why would you let a vendor sell shirts with your letters and referring to being pledged? Of course you can't stop every shirt from being made or sold on the internet or by a smalltown company that designs shirts, but you can control what is being sold at your conventions. I think it def sends a warped message to young men who didn't pledge and think pledging is illegal and is not condoned, when they goto buy some para, they see people buying these shirts. |
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Post by Cambist on Jun 27, 2008 9:30:59 GMT -5
huey must have been at an Alpha convention 'cause I saw that and made a remark to the ED!
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Post by Robelite on Jun 27, 2008 12:21:44 GMT -5
To put a "lid" on this so to speak...
As one who has served in an ADVISORY capacity for nearly 14 years now, I can say unequivocally, that I don't tolerate the bullshit, and have called brothers out in meetings...and other places when word gets out that their names are coming up in incidents of illegal initiation activities.
I have PERSONALLY recommended the suspensions..and a couple of cases, the EXPULSION of brothers who have taken part in such activities.
The cry and whine of "well, grad folks do it too," gets in my craw everytime I read it! I want someone to tell me here...of all these cases we read and hear about in the news, how many of them involve an alumni chapter...of anything?
I think rather than trying to cover the asses of those who are killing us fromwithin, if WE would start calling them to the carpet on their mess, perhaps some of it would decrease. Fools will continue to do foolish things if they think that someone will come along and reward and congratulate them for their foolishness!
It needs to stop, or we all we all be in someone's bankruptcy court!!
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Post by Search1906 on Jun 27, 2008 12:29:34 GMT -5
Somebody once suggested that there should be a five-to-ten year moratorium on membership intake to allow time to do some in-house clean-up. Does anyone think that this would work? Also, I think there is some merit to charging people who allow themselves to be hazed with a crime (as discussed in the other post). I think you all would die out if you didn't bring anyone in for 5 -10 years. Its either that or you'd have a lotta ghost/renegades running around. Either way it probably wouldn't be a good look. At the end of the day its paramount for your members to act like they have some sense and live up to the standards you claim to hold dear....anything less and you will continue to have the issues you have now. It shouldn't be so hard for folks that trumpet members who are the best of the best. Right?  |
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Post by Iceman on Jun 27, 2008 13:42:03 GMT -5
It's not so much as "Will Kappa Ever Learn" It's more about will young men ever learn?
Kappa has and does constantly trained it's chapter officers, advisors and it's collegiates (undergrads) on our stance regarding hazing. We have conferences throughout the year where proper instruction is given, also the ramifications of hazing are discussed at great lengths in order to show that hazing doesn't make a good brother. So it's not about Will Kappa Ever Learn....Kappa Learned back in 1993 however it's hard to make some people understand.
At a certain organizations regionals troopa there was a room of vendors selling para. The fact that there was a vendor selling shirts of a man holding would and listing why its good to pledge and other shirts relating to pledging, made me think that the organization did not take the issue of hazing as too too seriously. Why would you let a vendor sell shirts with your letters and referring to being pledged? Of course you can't stop every shirt from being made or sold on the internet or by a smalltown company that designs shirts, but you can control what is being sold at your conventions. I think it def sends a warped message to young men who didn't pledge and think pledging is illegal and is not condoned, when they goto buy some para, they see people buying these shirts. Huey...I don’t think it is that mind boggling. As a supporter of pledging, I’m personally of the belief that in 2008 “most” young men aren’t that naïve and are aware that pledging has gone on in their Org’s pre 90, post 90 (underground) and will continue to go on(underground). Either you’re for it or against it. In the same manner, young brothers will choose to either pledge or not pledge. However, in 2008, I’m sure it comes to no surprise for those that didn’t pledge to see Nalia sold at regional’s and the like that pertain to pledging. I’m certain they know what time it is even though they chose not to do it. Is what it is. If they want to buy some naila from that particular vendor, they can just bypass the “pledging related ” nalia as pledging played no part in their process to become a member. Some or all won’t agree, but they don’t have to. Just my personal opinion on it. Ice |
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Post by Cambist on Jun 27, 2008 14:13:08 GMT -5
But that's like going to a police convention and buying a shirt that reads, "I set up niggas something TOUGH"
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Post by Search1906 on Jun 27, 2008 14:14:59 GMT -5
LOL @ Cam.
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Post by Iceman on Jun 27, 2008 14:47:24 GMT -5
But that's like going to a police convention and buying a shirt that reads, "I set up niggas something TOUGH" I hear you Camron.... but I think you know Im not making this up. Although we are on opposite sides of the fence on the subject of pledging, Im sure you've seen "pledging related" naila sold at official functions just like I have. Im not saying it makes the most sense when what is being frowned upon by "some" inside the meeting, is being promoted at a vendor booth right outside the meeting. But whether it makes sense or not, it happens. Ive seen it sold at various functions since the mid 90's and Im sure there will be a ton avaialble for sale in Kansas City next month. And in most cases...it sells very well. Somebody at the functions are buying it..... In regards to the young members H was speaking of, I just don't believe it would be that shocking. Even non-greeks are familiar with the division within Org's of those who pledged and who didnt. So maybe I'm wrong...but I just dont see how even a new BGLO member that didnt pledge "wouldn't" know about the current climate in the culture of BGLO's. Possible..but not Probable. |
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Post by Cambist on Jun 27, 2008 14:57:41 GMT -5
Oh, I hear ya bruh and I understand what you're saying. There was no shock in seeing it. I just don't understand how the leadership can allow the pledging related 'nalia to be sold just outside of a meeting where we are discussing hazing related lawsuits.
My preference would be for 'nalia bearing that kind of message not be sold within the convention space.
**Full Disclosure- I have the t-shirt in question but would never wear it. I just paid the vendor and had her send it to my room. LOL!
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Post by huey on Jun 27, 2008 15:06:08 GMT -5
But that's like going to a police convention and buying a shirt that reads, "I set up niggas something TOUGH" I hear you Camron.... but I think you know Im not making this up. Although we are on opposite sides of the fence on the subject of pledging, Im sure you've seen "pledging related" naila sold at official functions just like I have. Im not saying it makes the most sense when what is being frowned upon by "some" inside the meeting, is being promoted at a vendor booth right outside the meeting. But whether it makes sense or not, it happens. Ive seen it sold at various functions since the mid 90's and Im sure there will be a ton avaialble for sale in Kansas City next month. And in most cases...it sells very well. Somebody at the functions are buying it..... In regards to the young members H was speaking of, I just don't believe it would be that shocking. Even non-greeks are familiar with the division within Org's of those who pledged and who didnt. So maybe I'm wrong...but I just dont see how even a new BGLO member that didnt pledge "wouldn't" know about the current climate in the culture of BGLO's. Possible..but not Probable. It's not just that ice, but it gives hazers a would be a since of security, If they can't clamp down on people selling pledge shirts at a convention out in the open, how could they possible clamp down on an underground pledge process? It's a big joke. |
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Post by Cambist on Jun 27, 2008 15:09:54 GMT -5
True.
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Post by Iceman on Jun 27, 2008 15:12:09 GMT -5
Oh, I hear ya bruh and I understand what you're saying. There was no shock in seeing it. I just don't understand how the leadership can allow the pledging related 'nalia to be sold just outside of a meeting where we are discussing hazing related lawsuits. My preference would be for 'nalia bearing that kind of message not be sold within the convention space. **Full Disclosure- I have the t-shirt in question but would never wear it. I just paid the vendor and had her send it to my room. LOL! LOL....Crazy But I feel you and your suggestion is the probaby the most appropriate. It's just that after seeing it sold there for so many years....Im thinking the higher ups just don't care or either enjoy the kickback percentage of all vendor merchandise sold..hahaha. Seriously though..I don't know man. But If they stop, the convention parking lot is going to start looking like a Black and Gold swap meet with Brothers selling nailia and paddles out the back of their trunks..lol |
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Post by Iceman on Jun 27, 2008 15:32:09 GMT -5
I hear you Camron.... but I think you know Im not making this up. Although we are on opposite sides of the fence on the subject of pledging, Im sure you've seen "pledging related" naila sold at official functions just like I have. Im not saying it makes the most sense when what is being frowned upon by "some" inside the meeting, is being promoted at a vendor booth right outside the meeting. But whether it makes sense or not, it happens. Ive seen it sold at various functions since the mid 90's and Im sure there will be a ton avaialble for sale in Kansas City next month. And in most cases...it sells very well. Somebody at the functions are buying it..... In regards to the young members H was speaking of, I just don't believe it would be that shocking. Even non-greeks are familiar with the division within Org's of those who pledged and who didnt. So maybe I'm wrong...but I just dont see how even a new BGLO member that didnt pledge "wouldn't" know about the current climate in the culture of BGLO's. Possible..but not Probable. It's not just that ice, but it gives hazers a would be a since of security, If they can't clamp down on people selling pledge shirts at a convention out in the open, how could they possible clamp down on an underground pledge process? It's a big joke. Well Huey...one thing to consider is that not "everyone" in our Org's that show up to our conventions, young or old, necessarily want pledging "clamped down" on. More Regulated and Safer? Absolutely...but not completly done away with. Now that may seem absurd upon reading. But think about that a little Huey. I know you've only been in your Org for a few months (I think??)......but as you get some time in and eventually meet more 0f your brothers...in addition to the younger ones, talk to some the the older ones as well. Better yet, if you ever get the chance, have an "off the record" talk with older brothers in leadership positions in Kappa as well. Yeah, your going to get the standard policy quote from plenty. However, you just might be suprised when you find out what many others REALLY feel.....I know I was. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 27, 2008 16:09:21 GMT -5
I honestly think this is the bottom line. VERY FEW people are totally against pledging, including older, more seasoned members. They don't like the fallout from lawsuits, and want to create the appearance of having a "Zero Tolerance" policy...but that's about it.
Personally, I am for a more rigorous intake process, but I don't know if there's a way to do that without people going overboard or people suing.
I don't know what the solution is. I don't see this mindset ever changing.
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Post by Southie on Jun 27, 2008 16:23:43 GMT -5
I remember going to the training class and was told, if you get caught up in wrong doing, you are going to jail. You are trained in understanding the rules and how to conduct a safe process, and if you go against it, you are on your own.
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Post by Kryptik on Jun 27, 2008 16:26:08 GMT -5
(DISCLAIMER: The following views should not be assumed to represent the beliefs of any organization in which I am, have been, or will ever be affiliated.)
Well, I see two possible solution...
1. Remove all "pledging" from all orgs.! (Wait, hasn't this already been tried?!)
2. Just publicly announce your org is a "pledging" org. Use the same type disclaimer used by the military... (During your initiation into this org you may be subject to both mental and physical duress, but nothing should be done to endanger your life. If you agree to this, Please sign here_______.)
Honestly, there is noway to complete purge the desire for some to have or "provide" some type of "rite of passage". Even Boy Scouts "haze" as defined by the law!
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Post by huey on Jun 27, 2008 16:37:17 GMT -5
I think one variable is competition. One Boy Scout chapter doesn't "haze" harder to prove they are "real" or go hard.
That's what throws everything outta wack, one chapter wants to go as hard as the next and the last line wants to be known for going harder than the last.
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 27, 2008 19:19:33 GMT -5
[quote author=kryptik board=seritalk thread=2824 post=89420 time=1214601968
2. Just publicly announce your org is a "pledging" org. Use the same type disclaimer used by the military... (During your initiation into this org you may be subject to both mental and physical duress, but nothing should be done to endanger your life. If you agree to this, Please sign here_______.)
[/quote]
I work for the military, and they, too, have tried to remove a lot of hazing--to the point where the older ones are like, "This isn't REAL, this isn't like it was when I went through it, this isn't fun", etc. They also go through the motions of announcing how they are now NON-HAZING. You even have a choice a lot of times whether or not to go through certain traditional rituals (for the branch of the military I work for).
The difference is that the military doesn't have to really worry about lawsuits.
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Post by Kryptik on Jun 27, 2008 20:04:55 GMT -5
Huey, I agree with you completely. The problem does come when each chapter feels the necessity to proclaim "We go the hardest". Again, this is something I feel stems from the male ego. The National Bodies, NPHC included, should probably recognize this and try to mitigate these issues. I know certain orgs have "chapter of the year", best gpa, and etc. When the National Bodies start putting more emphasis and reward on these types of qualities, the "We only go hard chapters" will soon find it necessary to assimilate or be phased out. @nsn Having a little experience with military personnel myself, I too have heard some gripes. Like you say, "The difference is that the military doesn't have to really worry about lawsuits"... One of the reasons I used to hear for this is that "these are adults" that know they are entering into a system meant to prepare them for some REAL challenges. Now I don't think that fraternities and sororities need this same level of "preparation", but if I tell you before hand, "you may experience a some discomfort" (now beating someone into a coma is ridiculous), then that would alleviate some of the petty "They made me walk in the rain" lawsuits. Please forgive my quick rambling.  |
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Post by denounced on Jun 29, 2008 13:01:14 GMT -5
Come on denounced! You know they gotta come hard or they wont be NUPES!! I know, I know.........I here it all the time. |
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Post by denounced on Jun 29, 2008 13:06:29 GMT -5
Somebody once suggested that there should be a five-to-ten year moratorium on membership intake to allow time to do some in-house clean-up. Does anyone think that this would work? Also, I think there is some merit to charging people who allow themselves to be hazed with a crime (as discussed in the other post). How will it work when suspended/expelled members are still honered and welcomed by their bruhs and sorors. Being one time siblings, doesn't mean your friendship has to be dissolved, but that's the problem and shallownees of the relationship.....We're not friends, if we're not bruhs or sorors. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jun 29, 2008 14:37:14 GMT -5
Well the Marines did away with The Crucible for like 8-10 years. So yes the military does have to worry about lawsuits. The Marines have since brought back The Crucible though not in it purest form it is back.
The Crucible is like the Hell Week for Marines. If you don't finish it you will not become a Marine. Its only like 3 days now and you only get 8 hours of sleep. It use to be 7 days with 14 hours of sleep. 2 Hours a day and I think they gave you 2 MRE's and thats it.
Every Branch of Service has an equivalent. I know in the Navy when you get your Flight Wings it can be very brutal. Field Medical Service School at Camp Johnson, NC wasn't a joke but even the version of the Crucible we had there was cut down dramatically. It is rumors that every Navy Seal dies and is revived during training. They actually drown you and bring you back to life. So I hear.
It's amazing what people will go though and the excuses they make when they want you to give them entry into an org without first proving themselves. That to me is crazy within itself. I'm not saying pledging guarantee's a person will be a great worker for your org but it damn sure is better than an Interview and History Test. It's like not even a valid argument on a plethora of levels. Sorry..
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Post by thequeulove2hate on Jun 29, 2008 19:05:57 GMT -5
SAME OLD THING JUST DIFFERENT ORG AND SCHOOL AT A DIFFERENT TIME!
UNTIL PEOPLE LEARN THAT THEY MAKE THE ORG AND THE ORG DON'T MAKE THEM THEN THIS MADNESS WILL CONTINUE AND NEVER END!
NUFF SAID!
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Post by Cambist on Jun 30, 2008 7:30:27 GMT -5
That is the problem....people look to be "made" by the organization.
@ Kryptik
It's not just the men. Ladies are now talking about how "Hard they went" while pledging. They talk about much of the same types of asswhoopins that the guys talk about. And it simply perpetuates itself. People have become consumed by a/the/their or others process.
In the end, even if military hazing is seen as "ok", it doesn't justify brutal hazing in or organizations.
Also...after listening to a conversation this weekend, I find it funny how BGLO's look down on other organizations that take their members through a "process" as if theirs is the only true pledging. Horseshyt.
If you have to earn your membership then why whouldn't they? Doesn't that makes sense to you?
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Post by huey on Jun 30, 2008 8:11:47 GMT -5
That is the problem....people look to be "made" by the organization. @ Kryptik It's not just the men. Ladies are now talking about how "Hard they went" while pledging. They talk about much of the same types of asswhoopins that the guys talk about. And it simply perpetuates itself. People have become consumed by a/the/their or others process. In the end, even if military hazing is seen as "ok", it doesn't justify brutal hazing in or organizations. Also...after listening to a conversation this weekend, I find it funny how BGLO's look down on other organizations that take their members through a "process" as if theirs is the only true pledging. Horseshyt. If you have to earn your membership then why whouldn't they? Doesn't that makes sense to you? No, what i noticed. That some greeks who went through a process get highly offended or hurt when mocked by Non-Greeks about having to get ass whooped to join their organizations. So much so, they claim thats not what happens! Greek: You paper? Greek: Hell no, I took wood. I'm the rock. You wanna trade right now? ------------ Non-Greek: So you gotta bend over and let another man paddle your ass? Thats some gay shit right there homie. Greek: Naw man its not like that. |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Jun 30, 2008 8:25:56 GMT -5
Also...after listening to a conversation this weekend, I find it funny how BGLO's look down on other organizations that take their members through a "process" as if theirs is the only true pledging. Horseshyt. If you have to earn your membership then why whouldn't they? Doesn't that makes sense to you? This is a conversation that I've had soooooo many times. And no one has ever really given me a good solid reason (IMO) as to why they think that way. |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Jun 30, 2008 8:52:57 GMT -5
The fundamental problem (as I see it) is that we measure sorors and frat much more on the basis of how they came in than what they do once they come in. I think you'll ultimately find that there are some who were "pledged hard" that are active, contributing members of their orgs. There are some "paper" folks who are doing the same. And both groups have a whole bunch of inactive folk who aren't doing a darn thing. It may sound twisted but I think you earn your letters by how you perform AFTER you're initiated.
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Post by Cambist on Jun 30, 2008 9:00:16 GMT -5
This goes back to my notion that your process or whatever means by which you entered the organization does not equate to you "purchasing" your letters. You EARN the right to wear them....then you have to constantly EARN the right to keep them.
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