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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 10:36:04 GMT -5
Initially, this was just a response to a comment my nigga BIGS made in another thread. However, since this has been on my mind since Obama locked up the nomination, I figured I'd just make it a thread and get everybody's take. The only thing that is making me uncomfortable is how quickly we (black people in general) are dismissing anyone who doesn't vote for Obama as racist, sellouts, or against black folks. I wouldn't go so far as to lable those that don't vote for Obama as racists, sellouts, etc.....but.....when it comes to black folk specifically....I'm puzzled by black folks who choose not to support him. Now I get that we as black folk aren't monolithic and that, as an american, we can vote for whomever we choose. But placing Obama's run in the historical context of the struggle of blacks in america, I find it........peculiar.......when black folks elect not to support Obama. I mean....you mean to tell me that they are in NO WAY........conflicted as being an AA.......when taking that position? They in NO WAY take into account the history, struggle and sacrifice of those who came before them; whose shoulders they stand on now; whose blood, sweat and tears have allowed them to come to this point in time where they can publicly say "I don't support Obama?" Do they consider or reflect on the very fact that Obama is the hope and dream of their parents, grandparents, great great granparents right down to that old African who made that middle passage voyage? They aren't, by some measure and degree, accountable to their ancestors who were tormented, scornned and rebuked from even participating in the US political process when stepping into that voting booth? I just find it extremely difficult to wrap my mind around the idea that black folk who choose not to support Obama aren't, at best, mildly conflicted and at worst, culturaly torn by their decsion. And if they're neither, I question just how deep their knowledge of "the struggle" runs and how deep their love is for black folk. |
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Bigs
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Post by Bigs on Jun 11, 2008 10:44:02 GMT -5
I just find it extremely difficult to wrap my mind around the idea that black folk who choose not to support Obama aren't, at best, mildly conflicted and at worst, culturaly torn by their decsion. And if they're neither, I question just how deep their knowledge of "the struggle" runs and how deep their love is for black folk. I'll be honest, I like Obama. But some days I wonder is what the country really needs at this point and time. This is not a declaration for McCain, Hillary, or anyone else. I just question whether the timing is right. The country (IMO) is a rapid downward spiral, and Obama stands to captain the ship on its way down. I don't know if I want that on his shoulders, or better yet on the shoulders of black folks. I question what does Black America think its going to get from America with Obama at the helm. I am in full support of Obama, so don't let a few question regarding the man become a Bigs doesn't support Obama. |
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 10:55:13 GMT -5
I firmly believe that Obama will right the ship. Hell, it ain't hard to follow an act like Bushy.
What does black america get? A black president. That very notion coming to fruition is, IMO, a balm to many older AA's and an affirming symbol to many young, cynical AA's that America is starting to make good on a few promisory notes and that maybe.....juuust maybe......black folks can now LEGITMATELY run for the highest office in the land I don't necearily think it's about "what does black america get from from America" with Obama at the helm. I'm thnking that black folk aren't so idealistic to think that shit would just change overnight after Obama's innaurguration. However, the very act of him assuming the POTUS may very well be more than enough for a lot of AA's.
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 11, 2008 10:59:15 GMT -5
Some thoughts (in no particular order):
* what if Obama was running in the Republican spot, and held strong right-wing conservative views? I'd still be somewhat proud (as I was for Condoleeza Rice), but I wouldn't be supporting him.
That thought has crossed my mind, and I suspect it's why the GOP isn't really putting up a big fight this year. They are eager to pass off Bush's big, big mess that is on the way on Democrats--and Obama.
*Another thing that I think people are REALLY missing: I LOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVEEE Obama! He's almost like a rock star to me. ;D The way I felt about Al. B. Sure back in the day is how I feel about Obama now. ;D BUT, I sometimes wonder if people are just pinning all of their unrealistic hopes and dreams on him. One thing Obama ALWAYS talks about is the change that WE COLLECTIVELY can make, with the right leadership (which he is proposing that he will provide)--not what *HE* will do while we sit on our fat, lazy azzes.
I have been observing some families lately headed by what I feel are slack parents, and one thing has become clear: Obama can't come to everybody's house and cut the TV off, read to the kids, and make sure they do their homework. Obama can't stop people from being unwise with their money. There's only so much the man can do.
I feel like as soon as things don't MAGICALLY improve overnight, or people don't take the time to do what THEY need to do, people are going to be quick to talk about how "he hasn't done anything".
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:05:06 GMT -5
point taken. If Obama was to the right of center, I highly doubt I would support him (assuming he had a LEGITIMATE shot at winning the GE). Hoever, I think there would be some measure of internal conflict for me simply because of my affinity for black folk and the history that could possibly be made with his election.....
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 11, 2008 11:09:39 GMT -5
In that situation, I can say that I'd be more focused on how he would affect public policy, not "history". Like I said, I was pretty proud of Condi Rice--but in the grand scheme of things, did I really benefit from her being there? I heard a lot of Blacks in 2004 say, "Oh, Bush has appointed so many African-Americans, that's why I'm going to support him". But did that really matter?
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:10:59 GMT -5
aaaand the GOP can attempt to push this mess off on to Obama and the Dems come January, but we AAAALLLL know who is RESPONSIBLE - they guy who, when asked a few months ago about the possiblity of $4 gas, replied with a blank expression that he heard NOTHING about the possiblity of gas being $4.
It'll be hard for anyone NOT TO look good as POTUS after following W.
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Bigs
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Post by Bigs on Jun 11, 2008 11:12:41 GMT -5
point taken. If Obama was to the right of center, I highly doubt I would support him (assuming he had a LEGITIMATE shot at winning the GE). Hoever, I think there would be some measure of internal conflict for me simply because of my affinity for black folk and the history that could possibly be made with his election..... I'll give you a name. JC Watts. Black republican from Oklahoma who is well respected in certain repub circles. Would you jump behind him if he is McCain's running buddy? Or in his cabinent (God forbid McLame wins) and sets himself up for a run in 2012..... |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 11, 2008 11:17:18 GMT -5
I know you asked Aces, but I'll answer--HEYELL NAW!!!!!!!!
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:17:53 GMT -5
point taken. If Obama was to the right of center, I highly doubt I would support him (assuming he had a LEGITIMATE shot at winning the GE). Hoever, I think there would be some measure of internal conflict for me simply because of my affinity for black folk and the history that could possibly be made with his election..... I'll give you a name. JC Watts. Black republican from Oklahoma who is well respected in certain repub circles. Would you jump behind him if he is McCain's running buddy? Or in his cabinent (God forbid McLame wins) and sets himself up for a run in 2012..... As a true blue Dem, hayle naw. As a black man, there would be a measure of pride. hence, some degree of internal conflict. However, I probably would hold the party line cuz, ultimately, it's the issues and the policies raised out of those issues that are going to affect me and mine the most. |
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:19:09 GMT -5
I know you asked Aces, but I'll answer--HEYELL NAW!!!!!!!! hayle naw what? lol... |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jun 11, 2008 11:25:15 GMT -5
LOL! ;D I was answering the question about J.C. Watts.
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:27:04 GMT -5
^^lol....gotcha.
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:29:16 GMT -5
come to think of it.....I'm tryin' to wrap my mind around the concept of a "black republican."
I'm still strugglin' with this one....
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Jun 11, 2008 11:38:09 GMT -5
I got into a huge debate about this with a friend several months ago. I definitely agree there is to some extent the feeling of obligation, we also can't just blindly follow and support every Black person in situations such as this, because every Black person is not necessarily going to work to your benefit. In this case, I do feel that Barack's plans are in line with a lot of what I would like to see, so I have no problems supporting him.
Like Bigs, I also recognize that there's a lot of crap that he'll be walking into in January if he wins, plus he's got the added element of being Black, so he'll have to work 5 times as hard just for people to even acknowledge that he is doing a good job.
I also understand that every politician is not going to support him...just like every Republican did NOT support Dubya during his campaigns...that's just the way it is. Do I wish all Democrats would support him? YES. Do I think its a bad look for them to publicly announce that they aren't supporting him? YES. Do I think they're necessarily bad Democrats for that? NO. They're both politicians in more right-leaning areas...they're playing the game to try to keep their jobs.
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:45:33 GMT -5
@ Q - that's fine RE: them tryin' to keep their jobs. Just don't claim to be a Dem.
It's like like those radical Hillary supporters who say that they're gonna stay home or vote for McSame. How can you sit there and say that Hill's views are in line with yours, but cuz she didn't get the nomination, you gonna vote for McSame? IMO, they either Repubs to begin with or wanted Hillary simply cuz she was a woman. Either way, they were never Dems.
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Post by Champs Elysees on Jun 11, 2008 11:48:38 GMT -5
I understand and like the arguments put up by all parties!
As far as "black Republicans," when we look at the supposed "ideals" of the Republican party-- Family Values, Economic Independence, Small Government-- I think that many of us would be Republicans IF THEY STUCK TO THEIR CORE IDEALS!!!!!!!!!
Republicans are the most underhanded and hypocritical group of people! And what's worse, they push their "values" off on us throught unfair and illegal legislation while them and their kids are coke heads, whores, white-collar thugs and everything else.
No thanks! 
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Bigs
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Post by Bigs on Jun 11, 2008 11:49:07 GMT -5
@ Q - that's fine RE: them tryin' to keep their jobs. Just don't claim to be a Dem. It's like like those radical Hillary supporters who say that they're gonna stay home or vote for McSame. How can you sit there and say that Hill's views are in line with yours, but cuz she didn't get the nomination, you gonna vote for McSame? IMO, they either Repubs to begin with or wanted Hillary simply cuz she was a woman. Either way, they were never Dems. Sooooo.. what about the folks on the other side of the fence who said they wouldn't vote for Billary. IIRC there were some on this website. |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Jun 11, 2008 11:56:40 GMT -5
@ Aces - I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:56:41 GMT -5
@ Q - that's fine RE: them tryin' to keep their jobs. Just don't claim to be a Dem. It's like like those radical Hillary supporters who say that they're gonna stay home or vote for McSame. How can you sit there and say that Hill's views are in line with yours, but cuz she didn't get the nomination, you gonna vote for McSame? IMO, they either Repubs to begin with or wanted Hillary simply cuz she was a woman. Either way, they were never Dems. Sooooo.. what about the folks on the other side of the fence who said they wouldn't vote for Billary. IIRC there were some on this website. same argument applies. Why you gonna bite your nose off to spite your face? |
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 11:58:21 GMT -5
@ Aces - I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one with regards to what? |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Jun 11, 2008 12:00:24 GMT -5
The thing is, if Black folks as a whole stopped blindly supporting one party and actually made decisions on the specific issues at that time, both parties would be more accountable, and work harder to get our vote. Now, the Dems take us for granted, b/c they know they have us, and the Repubs don't even try. It would give us more power if they knew the Black vote was up for grabs every election. I understand and like the arguments put up by all parties!
As far as "black Republicans," when we look at the supposed "ideals" of the Republican party-- Family Values, Economic Independence, Small Government-- I think that many of us would be Republicans IF THEY STUCK TO THEIR CORE IDEALS!!!!!!!!!
Republicans are the most underhanded and hypocritical group of people! And what's worse, they push their "values" off on us throught unfair and illegal legislation while them and their kids are coke heads, whores, white-collar thugs and everything else.
No thanks! |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Jun 11, 2008 12:02:45 GMT -5
That they're not Dems if they don't publicly endorse one Democratic candidate...the party is made up of different individuals...I don't feel like you can honestly expect them to be this monolithic group that always agrees. Just like the Republicans who didn't endorse Dubya aren't less Republican because of it. @ Aces - I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one with regards to what? |
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 12:19:47 GMT -5
That they're not Dems if they don't publicly endorse one Democratic candidate...the party is made up of different individuals...I don't feel like you can honestly expect them to be this monolithic group that always agrees. Just like the Republicans who didn't endorse Dubya aren't less Republican because of it. endorsing a party candidate and NOT VOTING for party candidate are two entirely different things. if the platform the candidate is running on is a traditional platform of that respective party, does not voting for them, or more importantly voting against them in some way indicate a seperation (to whatever degree) from the party? It's one thing to be on the outter fringes of the party. It's another to align yourself with a canidate of the party that does not share your views. |
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Post by Champs Elysees on Jun 11, 2008 12:24:16 GMT -5
The thing is, if Black folks as a whole stopped blindly supporting one party and actually made decisions on the specific issues at that time, both parties would be more accountable, and work harder to get our vote. Now, the Dems take us for granted, b/c they know they have us, and the Repubs don't even try. It would give us more power if they knew the Black vote was up for grabs every election. I understand and like the arguments put up by all parties!
As far as "black Republicans," when we look at the supposed "ideals" of the Republican party-- Family Values, Economic Independence, Small Government-- I think that many of us would be Republicans IF THEY STUCK TO THEIR CORE IDEALS!!!!!!!!!
Republicans are the most underhanded and hypocritical group of people! And what's worse, they push their "values" off on us throught unfair and illegal legislation while them and their kids are coke heads, whores, white-collar thugs and everything else.
No thanks! ![]() greek9.com/forum/Smileys/default/shrugs.gif
[/img][/color] |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Jun 11, 2008 12:32:37 GMT -5
Let me clarify...I was talking specifically about the Oklahoma & Florida Dems who said they weren't endorsing Obama...neither of whom said they were supporting/endorsing/voting for/or otherwise aligning themselves with another party. As for the Hillary supporters...that's a combination of lack of info and brainwashing...again, not necessarily they aren't Dems...they were just uninformed enough to drink Hillary's kool-aid. That they're not Dems if they don't publicly endorse one Democratic candidate...the party is made up of different individuals...I don't feel like you can honestly expect them to be this monolithic group that always agrees. Just like the Republicans who didn't endorse Dubya aren't less Republican because of it. endorsing a party candidate and NOT VOTING for party candidate are two entirely different things. if the platform the candidate is running on is a traditiona platform of that respective party, does not voting for them, or more importantly voting against them in some way indicate a seperation (to whatever degree) from the party? It's one thing to be on the outter fringes of the party. It's another to align yourself with a canidate of the party that does not share your views. |
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 12:34:14 GMT -5
@ Q - Gotcha!
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Post by 123Diva on Jun 11, 2008 12:38:16 GMT -5
Well I don't think we need to be attacking those Blacks who are not supporting Obama. Brown skin gives us (in some cases) a shared American experience, but sometimes that is where the commonalities end. I fully support Obama. Now, does that mean I agree with everything the man says...NOPE...I will never ever agree with EVERYTHING any candidate says...It simply means I have faith that he is the best person to run this country right now.
Black people have different priorities, stances on issues etc...
If you were a single Black mother with custody of your sole child (a baby at that) who was recently separated from your gay (yes homosexual) husband and you had strong Christian values as well as a deep-rooted fear that one day your unfit (not just because he's gay) estranged gay husband may get full costody of your child, then you may be leaning towards McCain because to you in your life and based on your priorities, you may want a conservative president in office under whose leadership, the gay rights would not prevail.
<----knows a case like this
<----understands this stance and the fear behind it
<----will vote for Sen. Obama regardless
<---is not so audacious and self-righteous to deem this Black woman a sell-out
Our priorities are different. She is still my Black sister...
We have complained forever that not enough Blacks are going to the polls to vote; they...actually WE are now, so let's STOP condemning whatever choice our fellow Blacks are making.
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Post by ACES on Jun 11, 2008 12:42:28 GMT -5
^^I guess
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Post by Highly Favored on Jun 11, 2008 13:32:12 GMT -5
Well stated, 123DIVA.
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