Are HBCUs still relevant?

[coldfront06]

I'm reading a research paper on the causes and consequences of attending an HBCU, and its pretty interesting. I'll copy the abstract and provide a link to the paper. Do you think HBCUs will continue to be relevant in the future?

ABSTRACT

Until the 1960s, Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) were practically the only institutions of higher learning open to Blacks in the US. Using nationally representative data files from 1970s and 1990s college attendees, we find that in the 1970s HBCU matriculation was associated with higher wages and an increased probability of graduation, relative to attending a Traditionally White Institution (TWI). By the 1990s, however, there is a wage penalty, resulting in a 20% decline in the relative wages of HBCU graduates between the two decades. We also analyze the College and Beyond's 1976 and 1989 samples of matriculates which allows us to focus on two of the most elite HBCUs. Between the 1970s and 1990s, HBCU students report statistically significant declines in the proportion that would choose the same college again, preparation for getting along with other racial groups, and development of leadership skills, relative to black students in TWIs. On the positive side, HBCU attendees became relatively more likely to be engaged in social, political, and philanthropic activities. The data provide modest support for the possibility that HBCUs' relative decline in wages is partially due to improvements in TWIs' effectiveness at educating blacks. The data contradict a number of other intuitive explanations, including relative decline in pre-college credentials (e.g., SAT scores) of students attending HBCUs and expenditures per student at HBCUs.

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=979336#PaperDownload

[DamieQue™]

As long as education is relevant
As long as learning how to work a system is relevant
As long as black people are relevant

HBCUs will be relevant IMO. It is an education and an experience and it's not one I think you can measure through cold faceless numbers and statistics. If you went to a black school - you already know what I'm talking about.

[coldfront06]

I don't think alot of people understand that, and unfortunately its hard to explain.

[DamieQue™]

HBCU's are kinda like OO. You kinda have to be there to understand. You don't really measure it any tangibles. It's an experience. That's the best way I could describe it.

Since I've gone to both an HBCU and a PWI I know the difference. And it's not to say that PWIs don't party - Lawd did they ever party. It was an experience too - but not the same. I don't look down on anyone who didn't go to an HBCU I just know the experience that I got there was one of a kind and well worth the hassle of standing in a line 5 hours long to register for a class that closed right as I got to the front of the line.

LOL

[coldfront06]

I kinda wish Comedy was here just to provide a different view. She went, and she absolutely hated her HBCU experience...lol. I went back to visit mine a few weeks ago and I realized just how unique the experience is. You just had to be there, and once those days are gone you can't get them back. I went to a PWI as well and it is different.

[Search1906]

Believes HBCUs are still relevant having gone to one. I have not ever been denied an opportunity nor do I make less money because I went to an HBCU. I think a lot of stuff is propaganda. If anything those who go to HBCUs come out and work harder because of the stigma that gets placed on them coming from the schools we come from. I don't think most come out with the sense of entitlement that some people who went to big name PWIs and thus try to blow the doors off the places we work.

[Southie]

Although I attended a PWI I still think that HBCU's are still relevant. What would make them irrelevant?

<<did not read the abstract to see what the argument said

[Champs Elysees]

I attended an HBCU and loved it. There were hassles and long hot lines, but it was worth the experience.

I guess the paper does not address the number of black students who attended PWIs and wish they had attended HBCUs.

I am, however, going to attend a PWI for grad school because of the HBCU stigma.

[coldfront06]

I'm glad you mentioned that LadyL. Do you think the stigma will make HBCUs less relevant? Will it get to a point that we feel that we don't have a fair chance if we attend HBCUs?

[Search1906]

I think to an extent it will Cold. Just look at the sports aspect. Back in the day All the black atheletes had to go to HBCUs if they wanted to play. Earl the Pearl had to go to Winston Salem State but from what I am told he would go to Wake Forrest and dominate their team in pick up games. LOL Now days the top athletes shun HBCUs because they are inferior. If only they new the history of places like Kentucky, Indiana and other power houses that wouldn't recruit or play black players until well into the 60's. Now its happening with academics where our students are fooled into thinking they can't get a good education at HBCUs. HBCUs will be relevent only as long as we champion them. As for the BS that comes with going to them at times. Looking back I grew up a lot having to navigate through red tape and the like. It built character.

[CrimsonENDvy]

This is such a good subject!!

So, my dad is a professor at an HBCU. While I was growing up, he always took me to the games and stuff...I got to meet a lot of people (and this is also why I chose to be a Delta, but that's another story) anyway, the main reason I chose not to go to the University where he teaches is mainly because he was going to be there. I actually attended a predominantly white university, encountered a lot of racism, but I wouldn't trade the quality of education I received for anything.

And then I took a summer class at the HBCU where my dad teaches.

The atmosphere was COMPLETELY different. I loved the people, and my sorority's chapter was cool, but the teachers teach as though you are on a lower level than you are supposed to be. I mean, this was Physics, and the lady fed everything to us. I didn't even have to crack the book once and I got an A. AND the teacher was white.

The worst part was people were saying she was one of the hardest teachers they had ever had. And this lady literally FEDus everything. She went over each problem specifically,the same problems again and again, gave bonuses on top of bonuses, and I had never encountered teaching like that before. I almost felt like she thought we were remedial. I loved it because I didn't have to study, but I had a problem with the fact that the rest of the students were complaining, and that gave me a sense that the other teachers were even worse than that.

Please understand, I'm not generalizing, but at this school, the kids are lazy and the teachers don't make it any better. Then when they go out into the real world, they are shocked that people actually want them to work. And I have heard from others who have gone to other HBCU's around here that its the same way there. WHY??

Again, I'm not saying ALL HBCU's are like this, but the ones down here are, and that's the way other people see them. And they're right. I really hate that.

[coldfront06]

I've heard those points from others Crimson. I guess it just depends on the school, and even on the individual teachers. My brother is at a PWI now. He's allowed to take his tests ONLINE! LOL. I sit and think "Man, if I were allowed to take my tests over the internet at my HBCU, I would have never made less than an A." He was asking me questions and I was giving him answers. It never dawned on me that he was taking a test. I don't think you can get much easier than being allowed to take a test online with no teacher supervision.

[CrimsonENDvy]

I took tests online too, but it was so supervised you couldn't even take cell phones in!!!! So how he was able to ask you for answers is beyond me! Wow, what school does he go to? I need to go there for grad school instead!

[CrimsonENDvy]

^^^just kidding

[DamieQue™]

Also the PWI I went too... they had old test, homework, and quizzes back to the damn 70's for some classes. You just had to find out who had it and how to get it from them.

No such thing existed at my HBCU. I'm sure they recycled old tests as well, but there was no resource you could go to get the kind of library I found at my PWI. Of course since I went to the HBCU first, I quickly realized there was a system and how to exploit.

I swear, that's been the majority of my working career. I'm doing a job right now that I had absolutely NO skills for prior to coming. I simply talked a good one, made a compelling case and I have the job. You don't learn that in ANY book.

And most of what they teach you in undergrad is fundamentals anyway. No serious engineering company I've been to is doing ANY serious hand calculations for anything.

If there is one thing you should learn from watching this election cycle is that this world is a system. Once you identify how it works, you make it work for you. Knowing the right equation to acceleration doesn't help you do that (not a swipe at you CENDvy - just saying)

[coldfront06]

crimsonendvy said:

I took tests online too, but it was so supervised you couldn't even take cell phones in!!!! So how he was able to ask you for answers is beyond me! Wow, what school does he go to? I need to go there for grad school instead!

He can take the test at home. The test is on Tuesday, for example. He has until midnight to complete it and he can do it from any computer. I think that is hilarious.

[Cambist]

<<== attended HBCU and loved it
<<== also attended a PWI and it was ok too....I didn't love it but it was ok

I KNOW that HBCU's are still relevant. That's not the question we should be asking. We should be asking, how can HBCU's increase their effectiveness and thereby INCREASE their releveance in serving the AA population?

[DamieQue™]

cameltofoot said:

<<== attended HBCU and loved it
<<== also attended a PWI and it was ok too....I didn't love it but it was ok

I KNOW that HBCU's are still relevant. That's not the question we should be asking. We should be asking, how can HBCU's increase their effectiveness and thereby INCREASE their releveance in serving the AA population?

^^^^This one is going to be worth an exalt...

[CrimsonENDvy]

I agree with you completely Damie. All I'm saying is just because a school is an HBCU, the quality of education shouldn't be different, regardless of whether you use what you learned or not.

[CrimsonENDvy]

coldfront06 said:

crimsonendvy said:

I took tests online too, but it was so supervised you couldn't even take cell phones in!!!! So how he was able to ask you for answers is beyond me! Wow, what school does he go to? I need to go there for grad school instead!

He can take the test at home. The test is on Tuesday, for example. He has until midnight to complete it and he can do it from any computer. I think that is hilarious.

I was just messing with you Cold, I have done that for take home computer tests too... ;D

[Search1906]

I will say this. At Hampton the professors in the Physics and Engineering department fed you nothing. Most were from overseas so they got on in your arse and made you learn stuff. We had cats from Turkey, India, Beirut. We have professors who came from MIT, RPI, Vanderbilt, UVa, etc and they purposely made test you couldn't finished so you wouldn't be concerned with the answer so much as the process. There were old test floating around that upperclassmen passed down but they only helped you so much. Outside of the sciences I have heard that teachers could be lax but you will not skate at the real HU in the engineering department. I think it depends on the school.

Camel made a good point though. HBCUs definitely have to pursue enhancing their curriculum to meet the needs of the students and stay viable.

[CrimsonENDvy]

searchinfortruth said:

I will say this. At Hampton the professors in the Physics and Engineering department fed you nothing. They were all from overseas so they got on in your arse and made you learn stuff. We had cats from Turkey, India, Beirut. We have professors who came from MIT, RPI, Vanderbilt, UVa, etc and they purposely made test you couldn't finished so you wouldn't be concerned with the answer so much as the process. There were old test floating around that upperclassmen passed down but they only helped you so much. Outside of the sciences I have heard that teachers could be lax but you will not skate at the real HU in the engineering department. I think it depends on the school.

Camel made a good point though. HBCUs definitely have to pursue enhancing their curriculum to meet the needs of the students and stay viable.

I definitely agree. It also depends on the teacher...I really don't imagine my dad feeding anybody anything either

[DamieQue™]

Good point CENDvy... I think we should be careful about making conclusions about an overall school based on an experience with one teacher.

I definitely had a lab teacher for my Chemistry class that was as lax as they get. I mean you had to WANT to not get an A for it to happen. Why? Because he was a short timer. He was just trying to fulfill his obligation for that semester and move on to his next venture.

It DEFINITELY wasn't indicative of my overall schooling - cause if you were an engineer, there was just no ducking it - you were going to have to work really hard to get out with a decent GPA (which I did, and did). But if someone had to base their experience on that Chemistry class - I could definitely see why they'd think that the school wasn't up to par.

I had a professor at my PWI offer a class:

1. So he could get a teaching credit
2. So his students could be guranteed at least one A that semester (there's no excuse for not getting an A in a class in which the project and the material comes directly from your Research work). It's all relative.

[MochaD]

<<== attended HBCU and had a love hate relationship
<<== also attended a PWI and it was ok too....I didn't love it but it was ok

Undergrad, I attended an HBCU and I learned IMMEJIATELY, it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know! My first year, I was in tears because admin sucked and my feelings were hurt because I went thru hell and high water to apply for loans and find money for school and I couldn't get housing or the classes I wanted. I mean I was crying REAL tears. I hate to say it, but the lines and shitty azz customer service was CRAZY!!! Unfuccin'Real!!!

Then, my second semester, I got a job in one of the "major offices" and talk about smooooooth sailing. If swear, if it wasn't for me working there and having "connections" I would probably still be there -LoL -j/k/k. I got ALL of my classes and over-rides were not an issue. What was a pre-req? Those hardly applied to me. Talk about the "hook-up!" What was once hate turned into "The importance of Networking 101" and I mastered it. There were no lines when I could can head straight to the back of the desk, office where ever. One hand washed the other and that was evident. I also gained some friendships that are tight as fam. I took to the elders who I still go and visit til' this day. Just because they took me under their wing, treated my like their fam and I will NEVER forget it.

Then I went to a PWI and that was a very different experience. It was pretty much cut and dry. I didn't have the "hook up" there (didn't expect it, didn't need it) but I will say that my HBCU prepared me for the worst but my struggles made me the best to handle ANY situation. I can also appreciate the little things because I know what it's like to have "not so great." To compare, and HBCU is definitely an "experience" and I don't think anything can compare.

To answer the question, "how can HBCU's increase their effectiveness and thereby INCREASE their relevance in serving the AA population?"

I think that classes or a class should have assignments that include reaching out the the community -actually going out and physically representing and being a role model and meeting people and networking outside the "box". A grade should depend on that. I think there should be a credit 101 course. I think there should be mandatory internships and and have ALL students learn about entrepreneurship. Not just business majors. Don't ask me how right now...I'm just throwing stuff out there that I thought would be beneficial when I look at things the we should learn EARLY in the game.

[Sapphire]

I definitely think HBCU's are still relevant. Aside from the education, the experience you get is so unique. I can't say that so many famous people would have visited my campus, given lectures or just given support had I gone to a PWI. My horizons were expanded beyond anything I could have ever imagined.

I also loved the family atmosphere... people felt such a connection that never went away. They certainly have their problems but the focus should be on making them better not doing away with them. HBCU's give a different type of education (books, life, relationships, history, etc.) that you can't get anywhere else.

I don't see a (in DC at least) a decline in wages or competitiveness with regard to jobs for HBCU grads.

[dappa]

I believe they are still relevant but need to attract better students and get better in the classroom. I went to a PWI for UG and started grad at an HBCU, I don't regret going to my school and if I had to do it again I would do the same thing. I didn't need a lesson in struggle, I had that lesson already.

[No Screen Name]

I'm EXHAUSTED, and on my way to take a nap--but you KNOW I can't pass up a post about HBCUs. It's an experience like no other, yes, they're still relevent, YES Cam and Damie are correct, NO they're not necessarily any slacker/easier than other schools, NO they're not all ghetto, and NO, an education at one is not a hindrance when you reach the real world, and conversely a top-notch PWI education is NOT a golden ticket to easy street career-wise.

My HBCU education has done NOTHING but help me. The thing that has stalled my career growth is the economy (before 2007, it never took me more than 3 months to get a job).

I'm going to a PWI grad school NOT because of any stigma, but because there's only ONE online university that offers the program I want. A nearby HBCU offers it, but it's too long of a drive.

[konfucius1911]

EDUCATION is always "relevant". The better question (possibly) is:
"Should the wayHBCUs are governed/administered by revised?"

[IvyByDesign]

Dang, Damie, did we go to the same UG and Grad? LOL I went to an HBCU and PWI also.

damieque said:

Also the PWI I went too... they had old test, homework, and quizzes back to the damn 70's for some classes. You just had to find out who had it and how to get it from them.

No such thing existed at my HBCU. I'm sure they recycled old tests as well, but there was no resource you could go to get the kind of library I found at my PWI. Of course since I went to the HBCU first, I quickly realized there was a system and how to exploit.

I swear, that's been the majority of my working career. I'm doing a job right now that I had absolutely NO skills for prior to coming. I simply talked a good one, made a compelling case and I have the job. You don't learn that in ANY book.

And most of what they teach you in undergrad is fundamentals anyway. No serious engineering company I've been to is doing ANY serious hand calculations for anything.

If there is one thing you should learn from watching this election cycle is that this world is a system. Once you identify how it works, you make it work for you. Knowing the right equation to acceleration doesn't help you do that (not a swipe at you CENDvy - just saying)

[Bunny Hop]

I went to an HBCU for undergrad. I decided to go to a PWI for grad school because of the stigma, more money, more resources and because of the school's name. I pretty much hated that entire school year. After one year I left and went to a HBCU. People thought I was all kinds of crazy but I didn't care because it was about me and what works for me. What's funny is that I still take classes there but visiting and being a full time student there are TOTALLY different.

I'm so glad I transferred but I'm glad I had the experience of going too the PWI. I got to see the situation from both sides and it is really an eye opener.

HBCUs are great. That experience is like nothing else. My Black students at the PWI would be excited about going over to my alma mater(all of my schools are in the same city) or going to some event we were having but no matter how many parties you go to or how many times you sit in the courtyard you will never get that full experience.