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Post by nsync on May 14, 2010 11:19:19 GMT -5
Do you believe a woman is to submit to a man? If so where does the Bible support this? If not what's your basis?
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Post by nsync on May 14, 2010 11:22:15 GMT -5
No I do not believe this. Frankly I get tired of folks labeling other folks who do not believe this as rebels, ungodly, feminist and any such derivative.
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Post by Chal™ on May 14, 2010 11:27:18 GMT -5
no. i think that comes from people taking the "Head of Household" thing too far. Yes, a man is suppose to be the head of his household, but that does not mean he has to be a dominant force and she had to defer to him. Nope. Nuh uh. No way
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Post by peppermint on May 14, 2010 11:38:08 GMT -5
Actually both partners should submit to one another according to the Bible:
Ephesians 5:21-23
21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
This same message is in Colossians 3:17-19
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
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Post by Chal™ on May 14, 2010 12:09:32 GMT -5
the way people use the word "submit" is NOT the way it is used in the Bible
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 14, 2010 12:09:47 GMT -5
Actually both partners should submit to one another according to the Bible: Ephesians 5:21-23 21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. This same message is in Colossians 3:17-19 17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. 18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Umm yes both partners should submit but not according to the bible and definatly not gathered from the passages you cited. |
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Post by peppermint on May 14, 2010 13:25:15 GMT -5
the way people use the word "submit" is NOT the way it is used in the Bible How are people using it? VP- is your argument that these directives came from disciplines and not Jesus directly? |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 14, 2010 14:42:08 GMT -5
the way people use the word "submit" is NOT the way it is used in the Bible How are people using it? VP- is your argument that these directives came from disciplines and not Jesus directly? The directive came from the punishment of Eve after the serpent issue. Thy husband shall rule over thee stuff |
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Post by Chal™ on May 17, 2010 2:25:14 GMT -5
the way people use the word "submit" is NOT the way it is used in the Bible How are people using it? VP- is your argument that these directives came from disciplines and not Jesus directly? people these days think submitting means not being able to use your own mind. That whatever he says goes and you (the woman) should just sit there and take it. Whatever. To me, submitting to your husband and him being the head of the household is all fine and good, but I also believe that the wife is the HELPMATE to the husband. The means she HELPS her MATE. She sits and discusses things WITH him. I see the man as the representative of the family. He speaks to and for the family unit, but decisions are not made by him alone. It kinda goes back to that "Behind every good man is a good woman" statement. |
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Post by peppermint on May 17, 2010 9:35:01 GMT -5
Yea people who use "submit" in the way you described are confused. These people usually teach/belief that with a personal interest at stake.
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Post by nsync on May 17, 2010 14:40:56 GMT -5
Yes, but those scriptures say wife unto husband.
Not woman unto man. I think that's where folks get it wrong. Too many women submit to any ole man just because he is a male. Too many men think women should let them take the lead in any given situation...that a woman should know her place...behind or away from him.
Submission was for husband and wife.
Outside of that man and woman are on equal playing ground....
or no?
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 17, 2010 15:19:12 GMT -5
I could have sworn there was also a verse in there about husbands submitting to their wives (in return), and loving them, even as Christ loved the Church...
maybe I'm tripping. *shrugs*
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Post by Chal™ on May 17, 2010 15:34:13 GMT -5
I'm not arguing the "submission" part. It's MAN'S DEFINITION of submit that I have a problem with. Yes, but those scriptures say wife unto husband. Not man unto woman. I think that's where folks get it wrong. Too many women submit to any ole man just because he is a male. Too many men think women should let them take the lead in any given situation...that a woman should know her place...behind or away from him. Submission was for husband and wife. Outside of that man and woman are on equal playing ground.... or no? |
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Post by nsync on May 17, 2010 15:41:59 GMT -5
I think everybody has it wrong Chal. lol
Muse, it does mention loving like the church. However, I have not seen anywhere that is said a man should submit to a woman.
If it did our world would look nothing like it does today. lol
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Post by peppermint on May 17, 2010 16:51:04 GMT -5
Yes, but those scriptures say wife unto husband That is all |
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Post by 123Diva on May 17, 2010 19:57:22 GMT -5
All I have to say is this: There will be no promise "to obey" my husband in my vows one day. I don't plan on "obeying" my husband so I definitely am not going to promise it before God, friends and family.
The submission thing is sooo confusing because it has been misinterpreted and abused.
Biblically speaking there is definitely a God-ordained structure to marriage.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on May 18, 2010 9:33:59 GMT -5
the bible is anti woman period. No use trying to find the silver lining. There isnt any
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Post by peppermint on May 18, 2010 9:59:13 GMT -5
the bible is anti woman period. No use trying to find the silver lining. There isnt any Unfortunately, I'm finding this to be more and more true. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 18, 2010 10:03:32 GMT -5
Yes, but those scriptures say wife unto husband. Not woman unto man. I think that's where folks get it wrong. Too many women submit to any ole man just because he is a male. Too many men think women should let them take the lead in any given situation...that a woman should know her place...behind or away from him. Submission was for husband and wife. Outside of that man and woman are on equal playing ground.... or no?
I can dig it 
Only thing I would say differently is outside of marriage there is no basis for interaction from a biblical perspective. Men and women didn't really date back then. So I wouldn't say you were on equal ground - I would say you are on no ground (but it's really just a matter of perspective) |
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Post by Noble Work on May 18, 2010 11:02:26 GMT -5
@chal Yes a lot of people misinterpret that verse. Some only heard it, heard it wrong but never took the time to look it up the verse for themselves. This is one thing that has black women so disturbed, it's beginning to be a cancer.
Yes wives are to submit to their husbands BUT NOT in a way that he is dominant and over rule. He is not to make his wive a slave in ANY sense (the Bible speaks on how he should conduct himself AND his place in the home), he is not to make her feel useless but his Help Mate.
There are Christian men of God out here who understands what submit means in the Biblical sense NOT the Boulevard sense or Street sense. Chal wait til God sends you this Biblical sense man.
Further, YES we are to be the head of our home....PERIOD. If that woman tries to lead that home against GODS WILL it will not work.
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 18, 2010 11:59:09 GMT -5
I think to submit (IMO) is to submit to authority - not be co-captain.
I DO believe that the husband must listen to his wife (he would honestly be a fool not to, there are plenty of biblical examples of men taking advice from their wives Abraham and Sarah come to mind) but this really isn't a power struggle (nor should it be in anyone's mind). The wife submits to the husband. The husband submits to God. Neither of them is really making a decision. God is. Does that alleiviate some of the "heartburn" concerning the word submit/submission? The direction is given to the head and obeyed by the body.
Again transpose the Christ and Church Model and you will see that even Jesus was following what God instructed Him to do, and the Church (fledging church albeit since it was early) obeyed Jesus. There was no co-captaining. Husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the Church. That means taking direction from God and being willing to die for the body. That's what you get for being the head... that's all you get.
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 12:17:20 GMT -5
Im actually not against submission. We must submit to leadership in all aspects of life. I am a firm believer of this. However, I am talking in general society not necessarily relationships. I am not. I refuse. I can not...submit(ting) to a man just because he is a man. Yes, but those scriptures say wife unto husband. Not woman unto man. I think that's where folks get it wrong. Too many women submit to any ole man just because he is a male. Too many men think women should let them take the lead in any given situation...that a woman should know her place...behind or away from him. Submission was for husband and wife. Outside of that man and woman are on equal playing ground.... or no?
I can dig it
Only thing I would say differently is outside of marriage there is no basis for interaction from a biblical perspective. Men and women didn't really date back then. So I wouldn't say you were on equal ground - I would say you are on no ground (but it's really just a matter of perspective) |
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 12:19:38 GMT -5
Organized religions (most) yes. The Bible itself--- I highly disagree. There are too many examples where women were honored and also used by God for me to accept that the Bible is anti woman. Now the Bible being both a spiritual and HISTORICAL text...yes there are many MAN MADE notions that rely heavily on a woman's societal status bas second class during biblical times. I totally see that. the bible is anti woman period. No use trying to find the silver lining. There isnt any |
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 12:25:40 GMT -5
If the man is not submitting to God then should the woman submit to him? I think to submit (IMO) is to submit to authority - not be co-captain.
I DO believe that the husband must listen to his wife (he would honestly be a fool not to, there are plenty of biblical examples of men taking advice from their wives Abraham and Sarah come to mind) but this really isn't a power struggle (nor should it be in anyone's mind). The wife submits to the husband. The husband submits to God. Neither of them is really making a decision. God is. Does that alleiviate some of the "heartburn" concerning the word submit/submission? The direction is given to the head and obeyed by the body.
Again transpose the Christ and Church Model and you will see that even Jesus was following what God instructed Him to do, and the Church (fledging church albeit since it was early) obeyed Jesus. There was no co-captaining. Husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the Church. That means taking direction from God and being willing to die for the body. That's what you get for being the head... that's all you get. |
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Post by peppermint on May 18, 2010 14:59:39 GMT -5
Outtie,
IMO if a woman has married a man knowing full well he is not under the submission of God, then she should still submit to him. The issue comes about with there is a difference between what God is telling her (not what she wants Him to tell her) and what her husband wants. For example, if her husband is requesting that she partake in a threesome, she knows according to the Bible this would be sinful. In that case she should not submit because it's a direct violation of what God says.
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 15:23:09 GMT -5
I think you bring up an interesting point. But what many folks who have been married for a long time or any time for that matter...lol may tell you is that the person you said "I do" to may not be the person who wakes up next to you 10 years later or even as early as during the honeymoon (for some unfortunate folks.  ) So is it okay, once the man stops following God, for the woman to say NO, I can no longer follow you? Does the Bible allow for these contingencies? |
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Post by Chal™ on May 18, 2010 15:40:25 GMT -5
Outtie, are we looking for loopholes? lol j/k
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 16:02:35 GMT -5
Im not. LOL I've got my understanding of it all. Im trying to see why other folks act the way they do behind the concept.  |
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Post by nsync on May 18, 2010 16:03:23 GMT -5
Are you going to answer the new question Chal? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 18, 2010 16:27:40 GMT -5
In my mind it's a package deal. He submits to God, you submit to him. He doesn't submit to God, the deal is off. Problem of course is when and how you make the determination that he's not. Except but for extreme examples (i.e. he cheats on you, he hits you, he worships devil, etc) how do you even determine that he is not in submission? I'm not sure how you would do it. Any ideas?If the man is not submitting to God then should the woman submit to him? I think to submit (IMO) is to submit to authority - not be co-captain.
I DO believe that the husband must listen to his wife (he would honestly be a fool not to, there are plenty of biblical examples of men taking advice from their wives Abraham and Sarah come to mind) but this really isn't a power struggle (nor should it be in anyone's mind). The wife submits to the husband. The husband submits to God. Neither of them is really making a decision. God is. Does that alleiviate some of the "heartburn" concerning the word submit/submission? The direction is given to the head and obeyed by the body.
Again transpose the Christ and Church Model and you will see that even Jesus was following what God instructed Him to do, and the Church (fledging church albeit since it was early) obeyed Jesus. There was no co-captaining. Husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the Church. That means taking direction from God and being willing to die for the body. That's what you get for being the head... that's all you get.
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