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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 16, 2010 11:28:19 GMT -5
ahhhh, reading this brought back memories of march and august state meetings where we would recite this in the beginning of church service. I whole heartedly believe in this doctrine too. This is all I know.
Yes we say it (C.O.G.I.C Affirmation of Faith) at Convocation, State Meetings, District Meetings, some Local Church Services in other words all the time!
I want to say Yesssssss, Yessssss, YES LORD! ;DThank you thatque for the warm welcome!  Oh yess.... The good ole Bishop Mason hymn. Remember this one.. this is the church of God in Christ.. The church of God in Christ. You cannot join it. You have to be born in it. This is the church of God in Christ. Pep: I know that is not the only reason with the pants issue but that is what was taught to me. My grandmother has them old COGIC views on everything. Down to the point of members don't suppose to attend game events (I.e. NBA, baseball, etc.). I will explain more in theory when I get to a computer. |
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 16, 2010 11:59:38 GMT -5
Hello Humbledsuccess7, welcome to OOA
Yes we say it (C.O.G.I.C Affirmation of Faith) at Convocation, State Meetings, District Meetings, some Local Church Services in other words all the time!
I want to say Yesssssss, Yessssss, YES LORD! ;D Thank you thatque for the warm welcome! Oh yess.... The good ole Bishop Mason hymn. Remember this one.. this is the church of God in Christ.. The church of God in Christ. You cannot join it. You have to be born in it. This is the church of God in Christ. Pep: I know that is not the only reason with the pants issue but that is what was taught to me. My grandmother has them old COGIC views on everything. Down to the point of members don't suppose to attend game events (I.e. NBA, baseball, etc.). I will explain more in theory when I get to a computer. Underlined part, doesn't that go against the aspect of "born again Chrisitain" that is part of the religious faith? |
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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 16, 2010 12:57:19 GMT -5
Thank you thatque for the warm welcome! Oh yess.... The good ole Bishop Mason hymn. Remember this one.. this is the church of God in Christ.. The church of God in Christ. You cannot join it. You have to be born in it. This is the church of God in Christ. Pep: I know that is not the only reason with the pants issue but that is what was taught to me. My grandmother has them old COGIC views on everything. Down to the point of members don't suppose to attend game events (I.e. NBA, baseball, etc.). I will explain more in theory when I get to a computer. Underlined part, doesn't that go against the aspect of "born again Chrisitain" that is part of the religious faith? JA: I am not for sure know what you are asking. But I think you are trying to ask this.... When we sing this, we mean in order to join the church of God which is through Christ Jesus, one would have to be born again by confessing and repenting their sins (st John 3:1-7) we are not talking about COGIC Inc, we are talking about our faith. |
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 16, 2010 13:47:26 GMT -5
OK, gotcha. I understand now.
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Post by peppermint on Apr 16, 2010 22:34:22 GMT -5
HS7, trust I understand. One side of my family has been COGIC since the early 1900s when the church began to spread. By the 1930s, one of my relatives founded and pastored a COGIC church. The older members still frown on pants, movies, make up and sports but they don't preach to the younger ones. They just let us know we out of order lol
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 17, 2010 7:28:32 GMT -5
That is just so unnecessarily crucial to me! (no offense). Why do they preach against those things?
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Post by peppermint on Apr 17, 2010 10:22:30 GMT -5
That is just so unnecessarily crucial to me! (no offense). Why do they preach against those things? <---will be away most of the day but didn't want to leave JA hangin The short answer is modesty with physical appearance. Most peple cite pants as "man's" clothing but that's not the only reasoning behind no pants. Pants on a woman show the outline of her lower body which is considered immodest. Even if you wear baggy pants, there is still a "split" in between your legs- your legs are still parted. With the movies/secular music, it's about a holy lifestyle dedicated to God. Part of this dedication is being aware of what you are allowing into your being, whether it be food, visual, auditory, etc. |
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 17, 2010 11:26:16 GMT -5
So would it have been considered immoral to have gone and seen passion of Christ when it was out?
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thatque
OOA Interest
[C01:Purple]
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Post by thatque on Apr 17, 2010 14:10:45 GMT -5
HS7, PEP, & JA you all have asked very good questions & also given great answers to the questions which I do not disagree with the answers so I guess I will keep reading and enjoying this dialogue because again it is very good & so far no inaccurate information!
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thatque
OOA Interest
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Posts: 85
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Post by thatque on Apr 17, 2010 15:20:01 GMT -5
JA, this is so serious because you have people teaching you will go to hell for these things. That's why I asked clarification from TQ and HS. I get what TQ is saying and don't totally disagree but depending on where you are and which church handbook they are using, these things are taught as doctrinal. I was in the choir at a COGIC church and it was made extremely clear that if you had "painted nails" you could not sing in the front row. People would be set for solos and forget to change their polish- we would have to change up everything or have the person stand in such a way the congeration really couldn't see them. During one rehearsal, one young lady (who was new to Christ) was told that she was going to hell because she had on pants and red nail polish. The girl didn't go back to church for months because she couldn't afford to buy new clothes (dresses/skirts). Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind these teachings but really we need to get away from teaching this as sound doctrine. I wish people would be as honest as TQ and say "this is what we prefer" or "this is the custom." The no pants thing is actually located in the women's handbook (the very last sentence).
Also regarding thee Woman's Department Handbook I admit & agree that the "No Pants" thing is in the "HANDBOOK" & it is a official church document which is a standard and /or tradition (custom) but the "HANDBOOK" is not Church Doctrine
Church Doctrine is found in the small black book/manuel that are given to Elders & Ministers upon ordination so there are several things that are taking from the Bible or various "HANDBOOKS" and/or manuals book it again isn't Church Doctrine
So we will indeed have to agree to disagree based on terminology but the important thing I want to emphasize & they are....
There is a tremendous amount of progress & change in the Grand Old Church of GOD in Christ, especially since The Late Bishop G.E. Patterson tenure as The Presiding Bishop & now under the leasdership of Bishop Charles Blake there has been even more changes & advancements & we need to remember but WE ARE THE CHURCH, as things change yes there will be some resistence & objections but....
For example: - For the first time in the Church 103 plus year history the Holy Convocation this year will be in St. Louis, MO & not in Memphis, TN this year in November - Now that is a MAJOR change which just goes to some that things are changing & progressing!
Either we will CHANGE with CHANGE or we will CHANGE by CHANGE, because CHANGE is constant |
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Post by goldmind1922 on Apr 17, 2010 16:21:51 GMT -5
*lurking*
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Post by 123Diva on Apr 17, 2010 19:21:08 GMT -5
Wow @ this thread.
I am not sure of how to answer the question that has been posed. Basically the underlying issue/question is, what qualifies as doctrine? Any takers???
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 17, 2010 22:40:14 GMT -5
Based off others' answers Diva, I would like to know that now too! I mean the hand book for COGIC has me confused.
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Post by goldmind1922 on Apr 17, 2010 23:36:53 GMT -5
<--coming out of lurking with a long post alert Like Pep one side of my family is COGIC since the beginnings of the church. The other side is a mixture of Baptist (don't laugh COGIC ppl! lol) and 7th Day Adventist. I agree with certain aspects of all three, but more closely associate with COGIC. Like TQ and Pep pointed out, although it may seem rigid, there is a focus on holiness that is truly life altering. JA~ it's funny you asked about Passion. When that movie came out I was in the collegiate ministry and we wanted to go see it. Now there were some in the church who disapproved because the theater environment itself was considered "unholy." We were also planning on going as a mixed group (boys and girls) AND at night lol. The pastor announced that he was going to see it so that resolved the debate . There have been progressions (thank God) so some of these teachings you may only hear in the older or more traditional churches. Churches have actually split over some of these issues (particularly women pastors). Personally I feel that your customs and traditions are based on your doctrine. For example, the affirmation of faith says that the Holy Ghost is received by those who ask. Some churches have tarry services in which people tarry (pray for the Holy Ghost, even if it takes ALL night). Though tarry services are a tradition, they are directly linked to the doctrine. I also think that just because it's not listed in the affirmation of faith, it's not part of the doctrine. The women pastor's thing is an example. That is not a custom or tradition, that is a teaching. According to dictionary.com: Doctrine 1.a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 2.something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 3.a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church |
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Post by goldmind1922 on Apr 17, 2010 23:41:35 GMT -5
Based off others' answers Diva, I would like to know that now too! I mean the hand book for COGIC has me confused. There are several handbooks. There is a main one (which I think Pep and TQ mentioned) and a women's handbook. I can't remember off the top of my head whether there is one for the men's department. The handbooks are like handbooks for any other business/organization. This is one issue my dad took with COGIC. He felt like some people held the handbook closer than the Bible. There is also one for ministers that gets into the ordiances and how to handle weddings, censorship, etc/ |
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Post by 123Diva on Apr 18, 2010 7:51:38 GMT -5
I disagree with MANY practices and teachings of the churchin which I was raised. However, I'm not sure any of the stuff with which I take issue are "doctrine". Perhaps I was most annoyed that some acted as if it were so, when it really wasn't. I'm not sure.
It has been my experience that folks tend to treat tradition as doctrine and gospel, and I ain't with it.
I have more to share, later.
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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 19, 2010 12:17:24 GMT -5
I was just curious. So do you consider pants the clothes of men? SN: This isn't the only reason why there is a teaching against pants. yes pep, I do think that pants are clothes of men. My theory (from putting some things together) Pants were invented for men hint the place of the zipper. Due The way the skirts were starting to be made to benefit a woman's shape, pants for men was invented. And in Deuteronomy 22:5, I believe (going off memory) It says that women should not wear clothes of men. I read what you posted about some saints calling the young woman out for wearing pants and stuff like that, I think that should have most definitely been handled a different way. Thats something that could have been dealt with privately. At my church (one of few built by fam) we go out and donate and even buy church clothes for those who don't have the skirts or the right pants to come in church in. JA: as far as the movies and games and other things like that. I am really not for sure. I come from an old belief family and they always say that when saints part take in these events then that mean they are supporting the devils work. |
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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 19, 2010 12:22:11 GMT -5
JA, this is so serious because you have people teaching you will go to hell for these things. That's why I asked clarification from TQ and HS. I get what TQ is saying and don't totally disagree but depending on where you are and which church handbook they are using, these things are taught as doctrinal. I was in the choir at a COGIC church and it was made extremely clear that if you had "painted nails" you could not sing in the front row. People would be set for solos and forget to change their polish- we would have to change up everything or have the person stand in such a way the congeration really couldn't see them. During one rehearsal, one young lady (who was new to Christ) was told that she was going to hell because she had on pants and red nail polish. The girl didn't go back to church for months because she couldn't afford to buy new clothes (dresses/skirts). Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind these teachings but really we need to get away from teaching this as sound doctrine. I wish people would be as honest as TQ and say "this is what we prefer" or "this is the custom." The no pants thing is actually located in the women's handbook (the very last sentence).
Also regarding thee Woman's Department Handbook I admit & agree that the "No Pants" thing is in the "HANDBOOK" & it is a official church document which is a standard and /or tradition (custom) but the "HANDBOOK" is not Church Doctrine
Church Doctrine is found in the small black book/manuel that are given to Elders & Ministers upon ordination so there are several things that are taking from the Bible or various "HANDBOOKS" and/or manuals book it again isn't Church Doctrine
So we will indeed have to agree to disagree based on terminology but the important thing I want to emphasize & they are....
There is a tremendous amount of progress & change in the Grand Old Church of GOD in Christ, especially since The Late Bishop G.E. Patterson tenure as The Presiding Bishop & now under the leasdership of Bishop Charles Blake there has been even more changes & advancements & we need to remember but WE ARE THE CHURCH, as things change yes there will be some resistence & objections but....
For example: - For the first time in the Church 103 plus year history the Holy Convocation this year will be in St. Louis, MO & not in Memphis, TN this year in November - Now that is a MAJOR change which just goes to some that things are changing & progressing!
Either we will CHANGE with CHANGE or we will CHANGE by CHANGE, because CHANGE is constant I was quite sad that the Holy Convocation is not going to be in memphis this year. But i am glad that they are banding together and boy-cotting memphis this year. Memphis caught onto game from banking this time of year and stupidly raise their prices on everything to bank of the event. Memphis is going to be missing on a lot of money this year. Hopefully they learn their lesson. Its crazy when a low end hotel jump from $50 a night to $300 a night. smh |
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 19, 2010 12:58:24 GMT -5
How does going to a game support the devil's work? Why is their a handbook for women? Why a handbook period? Shouldn't the Bible be the only law/handbook?
I guess this is the case where I feel like people are taking personal opinions and making it law.
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Post by peppermint on Apr 19, 2010 13:41:52 GMT -5
How does going to a game support the devil's work? Why is their a handbook for women? Why a handbook period? Shouldn't the Bible be the only law/handbook? I guess this is the case where I feel like people are taking personal opinions and making it law. Others may disagree with this response but based on my understanding, going to games for instance is participation in a secular event. Also games tend to bring out negative traits in people. May lead to gambling, cussing, cheating, etc. I actually know a young lady who was told by a church leader that she needed to quit track (for which she had a scholarship). Same thing with movie theaters... the the atmosphere is not holy so you shouldn't be there. The handbook for the women's department is kinda like an overview of positions for women, what expected, etc. Some stuff is unwritten rules- like mixed pulpits. In more traditional churches, you will notice males and females do not sit in the pulpit at the same time. Goldmind, I guess that's what I was getting at---your customs and traditions are based on doctrine. |
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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 19, 2010 13:52:27 GMT -5
How does going to a game support the devil's work? Why is their a handbook for women? Why a handbook period? Shouldn't the Bible be the only law/handbook? I guess this is the case where I feel like people are taking personal opinions and making it law. Others may disagree with this response but based on my understanding, going to games for instance is participation in a secular event. Also games tend to bring out negative traits in people. May lead to gambling, cussing, cheating, etc. I actually know a young lady who was told by a church leader that she needed to quit track (for which she had a scholarship). Same thing with movie theaters... the the atmosphere is not holy so you shouldn't be there. The handbook for the women's department is kinda like an overview of positions for women, what expected, etc. Some stuff is unwritten rules- like mixed pulpits. In more traditional churches, you will notice males and females do not sit in the pulpit at the same time. Goldmind, I guess that's what I was getting at---your customs and traditions are based on doctrine. I agree pep |
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Post by denounced on Apr 19, 2010 14:25:16 GMT -5
Thatque, you are aware that COGIC teaches against secret societies, lodges, fraternities/sororities, right? Pep- The COGIC church has been and is becoming one of the largest Black Denominationl Secret Society Fraternity and Sorority in the country? With Blake in charge, I don't know where they are headed. Problem with COGIC Beliefs "THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST We believe that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an experience subsequent to conversion and sanctification and that tongue-speaking is the consequence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the manifestations of the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23; Acts 10:46, 19:1-6). We believe that we are not baptized with the Holy Ghost in order to be saved (Acts 19:1-6; John 3:5). When one receives a baptismal Holy Ghost experience, we believe one will speak with a tongue unknown to oneself according to the sovereign will of Christ. To be filled with the Spirit means to be Spirit controlled as expressed by Paul in Ephesians 5:18-19. Since the charismatic demonstrations were necessary to help the early church to be successful in implementing the command of Christ, we therefore, believe that a Holy Ghost experience is mandatory for all men today." cogic.net/cogiccms/default/cogic-history/what-we-believe/MANDATORY!!!!!!!!! "C. WATER BAPTISM We believe that Water Baptism is necessary as instructed by Christ in St. John 3:5, “UNLESS MAN BE BORN AGAIN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT.” However, we do not believe that water baptism alone is a means of salvation, but is an outward demonstration that one has already had a conversion experience and has accepted Christ as his personal Savior." cogic.net/cogiccms/default/cogic-history/what-we-believe/So does water baptism complete the salvation of the sinner? It is a tad bit confusing, combined with the fact that John 3:5 is misinterpreted, seeing that Baptism is nowhere in the context of the discussion. The COGIC would have it appear that one must be water baptized to be saved. Now Pep- Imagine someone learning about crossing the burning sands (a form of baptism, but not by water), the story of Hiram Abiff in Freemasonry, alluding to a resurrection. Then enter in the COGIC doctrines and you will have a catastrophe. |
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Post by peppermint on Apr 19, 2010 22:13:11 GMT -5
LOL @ COGIC being a large fraternity.
Teachings about the holy ghost are one of my issues. Personally, I feel every believer has been indwelled with the Holy Ghost which helps in the sanctification process. I do not believe it is necessary to tarry for it or speak in tongues.
I do think over time some of the conflicting doctrines such as water baptism (whether needed for salvation or not) will be clarified. Denounced, it is confusing, especially to a newbie who isn't going to spend hours researching or asking questions.
Last year I heard talks of moving convocation out of Memphis. I'm surprised it wasn't moved to Detroit.
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Post by Cambist on Apr 20, 2010 7:25:56 GMT -5
My wife was raised COGIC. My grandmother has attended a COGIC church for as long as I can remember. My mother attended a Church of Christ (Holiness) Church when I was young. When I was old enough to make my own decision, I floated from the Methodist (United) Church to the African Methodist Episcopal Church (A.M.E.), to the Missionary Baptist Church and finally to a non-denominational church here in town.
At one point, my wife started missing the COGIC that her ENTIRE family still attends. Occassionally, we visit and we also attend some of the special services like Pastor's Anniversary, Family Day, etc....I could not be a member though. We struggled through this issue since it's how she was raised but made a family decision (which is difficult for her) to not become members.
Having grown up primarily in the Church of Christ (Holiness) I felt the stares of those in my wife's COGIC church when I didn't get up and shout. That Mason-Jones conflict was evident. I rejected the COGIC doctrine that speaking in tongues was the primary (cant remember if it was required or not but it was communicated to me that it was mandatory) evidence of the Holy Spirit. This, in my opinion, lead to men making the mistake of mocking the existance by "faking" their possession.
I settled on a church where I can related to the mission of the church ON TOP OF it's biblical philosophy. One thing that I did like about the COGIC church and the Missionary Baptist Church was it's mission work outside the US.
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Post by Hummy Jones on Apr 20, 2010 9:09:20 GMT -5
LOL @ COGIC being a large fraternity. Last year I heard talks of moving convocation out of Memphis. I'm surprised it wasn't moved to Detroit. LOL, that was hilarious to the fraternity part. Moving to Detroit would be a good move for the convention. But I don't think Detroit has a center that can house the crowd that comes. |
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Post by goldmind1922 on Apr 25, 2010 10:39:14 GMT -5
HS7~ Memphis doesn't really have a center that can house the crowd. Hence the many overflow locations.
Cam~ You are right about the faking. Some churches require you (especially the youth) to tarry until they "feel it" during tarry services. You all know kids get tired, hungry, sleepy, etc so eventually they just start faking.
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2010 9:24:26 GMT -5
MY WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yall have been getting it in up in here.
So for everyone who has admitted they don't agree with everything or alluded to it--- Do you believe in absolute truth: something is either all truth or it's a lie?
If so or if not how do you apply these things to your committment to your church's or denom's doctrine?
Please explain.
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2010 9:37:00 GMT -5
Thatque, you are aware that COGIC teaches against secret societies, lodges, fraternities/sororities, right?
I was just curious. So do you consider pants the clothes of men? SN: This isn't the only reason why there is a teaching against pants.
I was not raised COGIC, but my home church followed a "Holiness" order. I know all about both of these things. One of the reasons I never attempted to "go greek" is because the influence of my church. Each year my church tried to host a seminar ,during youth week, that exposed the "evils" of greek lettered orgizations. All graduating seniors were pressured to go. I actually went my rising senior year. It was one of the most intense seminars I had attended as a youth. They spoke of gods and goddesses, blood rite, santanic based rituals, worshiping false idols...etc etc etc. Therefore when I came to this board, the Waters, Obos, denounceds of the e-world didn't surprise me at all. Also, we (females) were not allowed to wear pants to church. We were encouraged not to wear them at home either. We would have bowling parties and skating parties where women were engaging in the sport with long (normally denim lol) skirts. It was crazy to me. My mom followed this doctrined for years. She just started wearing pants about a year ago. She never forced me. However as I reached my early teens she tried to implement an at least two skirts a weekday rule, but it was too late. I wasn't having it.  |
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 27, 2010 9:43:30 GMT -5
Interesting Cam, I have people in my family who abide by different doctrines as well. I had a great grandfather that was a holiness minister, a uncle that is one, a cousin that is a minister but I'm not quite sure which doctrine he abides by (all I know is, his church be in service for-ev-er!) had a cousin who was Church of Christ, another cousin who is a Baptist minister, etc.
And Goldmind, I remember being in the gospel choir my freshmen year in college and doing reheresal, this one student start shouting because she got the Holy Ghost, and a girl I was acquainted with was standing next to her just started shouting too.
Later she admitted she started shouting because ol girl next to her started shouting, and I kinda looked at her weird, like faking it. I guess that is how I feel about the tarrying and speaking in tongues being mandatory, some of those people are probably faking it.
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Post by nsync on Apr 27, 2010 9:52:20 GMT -5
At (for-ev-er)! When I started going to my husband's church I was amazed that they got out on at the same time every week...I was like "What tis dis?" What is this new revelation? You can have church on a schedule? lol I became addicted. I could no longer attend a church that runs 4-5 hours long anymore. When I visit my home church (which has gotten much better about time) and my parent's new church I can't take it. My head starts to hurt after awhile. I feel so bad, but I just can't help but feel it doesn't take all of that always. Just like when I found a stylist who did my hair in 30 minutes on average everytime. "What 'tis this?" I don't have to block out half my saturday morning just to have my hair looking nice? Also we were in church all Sunday. Early morning service, mid day service, evening service... Tuesday out outreach or other ministry. Wednesday night prayer. Friday night youth service. Saturday chior practice and other ministries. I don't complain. Church saved my life (and afterschool/summer programs). Per the books I was supposed to be another urban black statistic. I am so thankful. I really am. |
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