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Post by Cambist on Nov 20, 2009 8:00:35 GMT -5
Do some research and then hit me back. You to J.A. Could God have, sooooooooooo what J.A. Have you even read Genesis you two? Is it 24 hour days or not? You study it, and bring an answer back. Genesis is a fairy tale anyway. The story of the creation is just that....a story. So we cannot discuss this any further since you believe it's absolutely true and I dont. |
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Post by denounced on Nov 20, 2009 12:33:27 GMT -5
If you are serious, who said it was a story? That's like saying there were only 3 wise men.
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Post by Cambist on Nov 20, 2009 14:53:49 GMT -5
It is a story....
I'm not sold on the wise men story either.....good literature though and it makes for some good storytelling.
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Post by denounced on Nov 21, 2009 8:32:11 GMT -5
Well then Cam, you are in no wise a Christian. From what I gather, you believe in the teachings found in the gospel. You believe in the Deity of Jesus. Read the four gospels over, and it will show you why my statement is true.
That's if you are serious in what you are saying.
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Post by Cambist on Nov 24, 2009 14:29:41 GMT -5
So you're saying that I cannot be a Christian unless I believe that everything in the Bible actually happened and take the Bible literally?
I'm not being a smartazz...i'm seriously asking a question.
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Post by denounced on Nov 24, 2009 16:43:29 GMT -5
I did not say that. I am saying that you must connect the dots with the gospels, which I remember you saying you do believe, and Genesis. If you believe in the deity of Christ, you must make the connections bewtween Him and Genesis.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 24, 2009 17:00:53 GMT -5
We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you this:
Abiogenesis =/= Evolution
That's where alot of the problems come in. Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life began though it is frequently conflated with being that explanation. It is not. Evolution explains how groups of organisms change over time - not how life itself starts. Abiogenesis attempts to do that (emphasis on attempts). They are 2 different things.
It is not just Christians defending Creationism, it is often people assigning a phenomena to evolution (the creation of life) which the theory itself does not specifically address. Evolution as an explanation for the creation life isn't a myth - it's a gross misunderstanding of what evolution is. It should be rejected by ANYONE scientist or skeptic alike.
Since I do not rely or take for gospel, any and everything the scientific community says (cause believe it or not, they actually get things wrong from time to time, Ptolemy's glass sphere orbits, ether winds, Phlogiston theory - all based on scientific observations - all considered the truth for a time, all of them WRONG) I am content with the fact that the Creationism "story" (as you put it) is not incompatible with what I have learned from science and vice versa.
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Post by nsync on Nov 25, 2009 13:40:31 GMT -5
I'm confused. Are you saying evolution should be rejected by everyone or it shouldn't be rejected by anyone?
For quite sometime I have studied evolution based concepts on a surface but detailed level(if that makes any sense). It's a lot of stuff and much to take im.
I think the problem that people find-- especially with Darwin's theory is--- that he not only suggested lateral evolution but upward evolution.
Not only did he suggested that animals and plants developed adaptation to their environments but also that new species were developed from a common ancestor species.
And I am sure that woulda been A-okay until they started toying around with human origins. LOL
That's what it really boils down to.
I am a believer in evolution. I know upward evolution has not been supported by science so I can not say for sure that we have evolved from the apes nor do I care. I am not afraid that evolution on any level may turn up bogus. However, for now...from what I have discover it has the least loopholes...of many scientific theories I have heard except the laws of gravity.
I can not deny the presence of vestigial organs and their importance in the evolution jigsaw nor can I ignore our extremely closeness to all primates in general.
Just took a trip to the zoo in early fall where...a freaking spider monkey came up to my husband and asked him for some of his candy. No he did not talk, but he held his skinny little hand out and got mad when my husband said no. LOL
FUnny little creatures.
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Post by nsync on Nov 25, 2009 13:52:50 GMT -5
The point is science and religion go hand in hand. And actually I have said it before ...both have the same common ancestor and that's God.
If we discovered that humans truly evolved from apes and that all mammals evolved from the same little shrew (YO GO VISIT THE EVOLUTION EXHIBIT AT THE SMITHSONIAN<---hot to death) or that we all came from a singled celled organism...and that the universe formed from gas particles...I would not be surprised. Why...because as of now....no story of creation albeit through science, religion, nature or a weed smoking cipher---has been proven---at all.
It all requires some level of faith. For now I believe in my Christian story of creation and I also believe that there is such a concept as evolution and it contains SOME not all but SOME of the answers we have about everything around us.
As the architect said to NEO in matrix RELOADED---
...while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.
Then Neo asks...why am I here?
----------------------------
I think why we are here or even where we came from is not so much important as what we are supposed to be doing while here.
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Post by denounced on Nov 26, 2009 13:58:54 GMT -5
The matrix, LOL!!!!!!!! Anyway, evolution does not try to explain, it just states, the universe BEGAN with a Big Bang, x number million years ago. There is no mistaking that evolution has ties to relative morality we see today. To deny that makes one a fool. Christian Scientists have no problem admitting their mistakes, and will tell one to use the most current information available, as did scientists of the past. But there are certainly things which have never failed scientific scrutiny. I suggest www.creationontheweb.com for the most current up to date discoveries. I will say to you Damie, as I said to Cam. You are in no wise a Christian. But let me add, or just a severely ignorant one. If you believe in Jesus, then can you believe He would LIE? "From what I gather, you believe in the teachings found in the gospel. You believe in the Deity of Jesus. Read the four gospels over, and it will show you why my statement is true." |
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Post by nsync on Nov 26, 2009 22:39:59 GMT -5
Like I said everything h relies on faith.How can you prove that what you believe is fact. You would probably have to rely on some form of historical and or scientific data to do that. If not how are you requiring science to do just that!
Lastly don't hate on the matrix or my references thereof! That was the happy highlight of the thread.
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Post by nsync on Nov 26, 2009 22:42:58 GMT -5
Evolution doesn't have to state how life begin. All it has to do is open the door to the conversation which it does.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 30, 2009 9:43:41 GMT -5
I'm confused. Are you saying evolution should be rejected by everyone or it shouldn't be rejected by anyone?
The best I've seen people come up with is the single common ancestor angle. Listening to secularists and atheists talk about evolution is like watching people showing up to an experiment a billion years after it has started, and then declaring how it all must have happened based on the 100 years they observed.
It would be like you showing up to WWII for the last 5 minutes of it, and declaring how everything happened based on the corpses. It's ridiculous.
Honestly the intel in Iraq seems more credible at times than some of the "proofs" for Evolution which is sad because I do think life adapts. That is the part of evolution that makes sense... but of course, evolution (or the ability to adapt to environment) would be evidence of design...
;D ;D ;D ;D
And then we'd be right back where we started again eh? |
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Post by nsync on Nov 30, 2009 10:12:55 GMT -5
But really isn't this what creationism does in a sense? I myself am all for my religious beliefs and I will promote them when given the chance. However, I am not going to sit up here and say that I can factually prove that my version of creation is accurate. It's absurd. I can say this is what I believe based on my faith. I rarely ever try to get folks to believe in evolution(as in species being born out of new species), because I am still a student in the process myself. Plus if it is accurate...some day everyone will see it. The truth stands on it's own...someone once told me. However, I will not agree that abiogenesis and evolution stand alone. It is my belief that they are heavily connected in the scientific explanation of life form origins and changes. After all, abiogenesis is considered chemical evolution. The best I've seen people come up with is the single common ancestor angle. Listening to secularists and atheists talk about evolution is like watching people showing up to an experiment a billion years after it has started, and then declaring how it all must have happened based on the 100 years they observed. [/color][/quote] |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 30, 2009 10:29:04 GMT -5
No I don't think so (at least speaking for myself). While we can observe that often scientific principles are in accord with what's already in the Bible, the essence of belief is faith. What is supposed to set their beliefs, above everyone else's belief is that theirs wasn't supposed to require faith...
...only in the end it still did. And it's not so much to do with religion, so much as it has to do with being small, limited, man. Unless you know everything, you don't really know anything. Hence what I refer to as "The Necessity of Faith". To successfuly operate without faith, one must know it all. But really isn't this what creationism does in a sense? I myself am all for my religious beliefs and I will promote them when given the chance. However, I am not going to sit up here and say that I can factually prove that my version of creation is accurate. It's absurd. I can say this is what I believe based on my faith. I rarely ever try to get folks to believe in evolution(as in species being born out of new species), because I am still a student in the process myself. Plus if it is accurate...some day everyone will see it. The truth stands on it's own...someone once told me. However, I will not agree that abiogenesis and evolution stand alone. It is my belief that they are heavily connected in the scientific explanation of life form origins and changes. After all, abiogenesis is considered chemical evolution. The best I've seen people come up with is the single common ancestor angle. Listening to secularists and atheists talk about evolution is like watching people showing up to an experiment a billion years after it has started, and then declaring how it all must have happened based on the 100 years they observed. [/color][/quote][/quote]
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Post by nsync on Nov 30, 2009 11:00:28 GMT -5
Theirs who? What exactly are you talking about here? If you are saying that everything requires a level of faith especially in the absence of empirical data...then we just said the same thing in different ways. No I don't think so (at least speaking for myself). While we can observe that often scientific principles are in accord with what's already in the Bible, the essence of belief is faith. What is supposed to set their beliefs, above everyone else's belief is that theirs wasn't supposed to require faith...
...only in the end it still did. And it's not so much to do with religion, so much as it has to do with being small, limited, man. Unless you know everything, you don't really know anything. Hence what I refer to as "The Necessity of Faith". To successfuly operate without faith, one must know it all. But really isn't this what creationism does in a sense? I myself am all for my religious beliefs and I will promote them when given the chance. However, I am not going to sit up here and say that I can factually prove that my version of creation is accurate. It's absurd. I can say this is what I believe based on my faith. I rarely ever try to get folks to believe in evolution(as in species being born out of new species), because I am still a student in the process myself. Plus if it is accurate...some day everyone will see it. The truth stands on it's own...someone once told me. However, I will not agree that abiogenesis and evolution stand alone. It is my belief that they are heavily connected in the scientific explanation of life form origins and changes. After all, abiogenesis is considered chemical evolution. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 30, 2009 11:09:00 GMT -5
Secularists and atheists - and their propensity to use evolution (and any science for that matter) as a mechanism to try to eradicate spirituality and/or belief in a higher power.
p.s. I don't know that our statements are necessarily equivalent. Empricial data, in my statement, has no bearing on whether or not mankind still requires faith. Theirs who? What exactly are you talking about here? If you are saying that everything requires a level of faith especially in the absence of empirical data...then we just said the same thing in different ways. No I don't think so (at least speaking for myself). While we can observe that often scientific principles are in accord with what's already in the Bible, the essence of belief is faith. What is supposed to set their beliefs, above everyone else's belief is that theirs wasn't supposed to require faith...
...only in the end it still did. And it's not so much to do with religion, so much as it has to do with being small, limited, man. Unless you know everything, you don't really know anything. Hence what I refer to as "The Necessity of Faith". To successfuly operate without faith, one must know it all.
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Post by nsync on Nov 30, 2009 11:27:16 GMT -5
Mankind requires faith for what? What are you talking about? LOL
We were over there and now we are .......................here.
My statement is that in both science and religion to believe those things that are presented as truth or fact or whatever...you have to have faith.
That is all. Nothing else.
It seems to me in your response you were saying the same thing.
For the record...in science...if someone says to you that they researched a hypothesis...you have to believe that their research is accurate. You have to have faith in what they are saying, unless you indeed researched it yourself.
At the core of everything is faith/belief because as you have stated man can not know all things...even if he tried to know them.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 30, 2009 12:17:51 GMT -5
Tell you what... don't worry about it. Just go with your statement and that'll wrap things up. Mankind requires faith for what? What are you talking about? LOL We were over there and now we are .......................here. My statement is that in both science and religion to believe those things that are presented as truth or fact or whatever...you have to have faith. That is all. Nothing else. It seems to me in your response you were saying the same thing. For the record...in science...if someone says to you that they researched a hypothesis...you have to believe that their research is accurate. You have to have faith in what they are saying, unless you indeed researched it yourself. At the core of everything is faith/belief because as you have stated man can not know all things...even if he tried to know them.
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Post by denounced on Dec 2, 2009 15:50:56 GMT -5
Evolution doesn't have to state how life begin. All it has to do is open the door to the conversation which it does. And this is all evolution had to do. Look at Jurassic Park. Compare the statements of facts compared to assumption. It's amazing. The Matrix has a worldview. Jurassic Park has a worldview. Worldviews are important, and have moral consequences. Darwin's theory had racial overtones, which are moral overtones. What have evolutionists craftily done? What the Klan could not have if they tried; they calmed the savage beast over time. |
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