Do you agree with this?

[No Screen Name]

I read a note posted by a Facebook friend. She is SUPER-DUPER hard-core right-wing fundamentalist Christian. She made a long note discussing the difference between "Churchianity" vs. Christianity. It was really long, so I won't post the entire thing. But some of the more controversial points she made are below. The one that was the most shocking is the post that everybody can't be saved.

Churchianity vs. Bible

Claim that everybody has the potential to believe or to be saved.... THIS IS A BIG ONE TO BE DEBUNKED!

THE BIBLE: John 12:39, " They could not believe."
and John 8:43, " Ye cannot hear my Word." and Matthew 13:11, " TO them it is not given." Romans 9:13-24

Read Romans 9... it will change your life. READY?

God made some of you to be objects of his wrath. He has just bore with you patiently to this day. Everyone will not be saved because God has made some to be destined to hell to show his mercy and love to those people who he will save. Harsh teaching but it IS BIBLE. It is a double predestination of sorts.... God destined some to eternal glory and some to hell. The evil heart will ask... why evangelize or do good if God has already made his decisions? WE DO NOT KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE. God has given us the charge to preach the Gospel, and if you love God YOU WILL DO IT. God's elect will hear the call and be saved. Those who are not elect will reject the call and continue on in hatred of God. God said it best, he will have mercy upon who he will and compassion upon who he will. Who are we to question God? Will the clay say to the potter what is this you have done? HE IS GOD and GOD can do what he wants.

( 16 ):Claim that we choose God of our own free will.

THE BIBLE: John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen Me."and Romans 9:16, " It is not of him that willeth, BUT GOD."

Newsflash! You in your sinful unrepentant state COULDN'T CHOOSE GOD. No one chooses God... GOD CHOSE YOU. There are countless scriptures to support this. This is why the "Sinners Prayer" is used incorrectly to evangelize because A PRAYER DOES NOT SAVE! God does a work in your heart FIRST before you repent and turn to him. There is a such thing as a "turning from sin" as the bible talks about, but that will not happen until God does what he describes in Ezekiel 11:19, and Ezekiel 36:26, he will take out the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh and put a new Spirit in you. That is exactly what happens to the new believer.

From my study this is the order of Biblical salvation:

1. Election - God sovereign choice to pick those who will be saved. Look at how Jesus chose the 12 apostles... he came to them and said follow me. HE DID A WORK FIRST, he chose them and they got up and left everything and followed after God. No man shall boast about choosing to turn to God.

2. The Call - The call of God through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ever heard the saying many are called but few are chosen? (Matthew 22:13) That is the biblical confirmation of predestination election. This is why we are commanded to preach the gospel.

3. Regeneration - The act of God changing the believer. It is described very nicely in Ezekiel in chapter 11:19 and 36:26 - God will put a new spirit in you and give you a heart of flesh taking out the heart of stone. No one turns to God without this first happening.

4. Repentance - Godly sorrow shown on part of the believer. The realization that they have sinned against God and God alone and need God. A person will then pray to God for repentance and be forgiven by God

5. Conversion - The believer is then converted turning away from sin to following God and doing his will.

6. Justification - When this happens God declares the believer justified and NOT GUILTY! We will not receive the punishment of our sins as we deserve, but it is through the mercy and grace of God that we have been saved.

7. Sanctification - The lifetime process of God setting us apart to his purpose to be holy. We are his and we are to live holy as the bible tells us. We will sin, but in sin we will confess our sins to God and he is able to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

8. Perseverance - we are called then as Christians to persevere, denying ourselves of the fleshly nature and continue on in the good work God has started, for he that began a good work in us will finish it. Pick up the cross and serve Jesus. You will suffer, but count it joy to share in the sufferings of Christ.

9. Death - It is appointed for all men to die, but then there is judgment. We are all going to die unless Jesus comes first so deal with it, but for the Christian death is not a time to mourn as if there is no hope, it is a time for joy that one of our brothers and sisters will go home to be with the Lord. We must lose the corruptible to put on the incorruptible. We must die in order to be with God!

10. Glorification - God's finished work in us where we receive our glorified bodies and will be outfitted to be with the Lord forever just has he has promised us! AMEN!

[No Screen Name]

( 1 ): Claim that a true Christian should not judge.

THE BIBLE: 1 Corinthians 6:3..." We shall judge angels, how much more things that pertain to life." and....John 7:24, " Judge righteous judgment." and Proverbs 19:28, "An ungodly witness scorneth judgment." ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES A BROTHER OR SISTER IN CHRIST IS SUBJECT TO JUDGMENT FROM OTHER BELIEVERS. God has already made his judgment on those outside of the church, for to this day they are storing up wrath against themselves from God. I Cor 5:12-13 Anyone who claims to be a Christian but is immoral and continues in sin without being repentant about it should be disfellowshipped from the body.

Claim that women can be pastors and teachers of men in a church of God.

THE BIBLE: 1 Timothy 2:12, " I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence."
* NOTE*--NO WOMAN SHOULD SUBJECT HERSELF TO ANY MAN WHO DOES NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF A CHRISTIAN. You are not to go and subject yourself to every man who claims he is in the faith, if you are single, your father is your authority, if you are married your husband is your authority, for no one can serve TWO MASTERS. Also note that upon study of this passage I found the Greek words used here for "Man" and "Woman" can also be translated as "husband" and "wife" and that the translators chose to use the former, even in contexts that don't make sense to me... (1 Cor 14:33-35) just throwing that out there. The bible is clear HOWEVER that pastors, deacons and bishops and elders should be MEN.

[No Screen Name]

14 ): Claim that God loves everybody. - THIS NEEDS TO BE DEBUNKED RIGHT NOW!

THE BIBLE: Romans 9:13, " Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." and John 17:9, " I pray for them, I pray not for the world." Romans1:18-32, Romans 2:5-1

Let me lay this one on you... in order for God to be love HE MUST HATE. For God to love righteousness he must hate evil. For God to love life he must hate those who murder, etc. If I love little babies I must hate the idea of anyone aborting a baby. DON'T YOU SEE. God does not blanket love everyone that is a lie from the pits of hell. The big lie that God can't send people to hell because he is love is not biblical as well... read: Matthew 10:28 The ONE sending you to hell if you are not saved is GOD. God does send people to hell, and the whole thing about "sending yourself" is only partly true. Don't believe me?

Revelation 14:9-11, the Lamb is Jesus the Lamb of God who was slaughtered and now is alive!

Some more:

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Luke 13:28
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

God is doing the throwing... you better fear if you are not in the Lord.

[kingdelta]

I believe that everyone can be saved but I don't believe everyone will be saved. Big difference.

[No Screen Name]

She says some folks were never meant to be saved:

God made some of you to be objects of his wrath. He has just bore with you patiently to this day. Everyone will not be saved because God has made some to be destined to hell to show his mercy and love to those people who he will save.

She also says that no one "chooses" God, that God chooses people to be saved.

[kingdelta]

I had someone tell me that salvation story too. I'm not sure on that. I think God does chooses us, He just waits for us to recognize.

[Highly Favored]

Mar 19, 2009 14:32:16 GMT -5 kingdelta said:

I believe that everyone can be saved but I don't believe everyone will be saved. Big difference.

I agree.

[Highly Favored]

This is so much to read. I'll try to come back when I have some time to devote to it. Just in scanning it, I see some things I agree with and some I disagree with.

[LejaOMG]

Well let's hope, for her sake, that she is one of the ones who is not destined for damnation. SMH

[Chal™]

that's a lot to read. let me come back a little later

[huey]

good read

I'm not Christian, but it makes sense.

I never understood those who claimed to be saved.

How do you know if your saved before Judgement Day?

You don't.

So shut ur trap.

[Mrs. Eyes]

Mar 23, 2009 11:00:32 GMT -5 huey said:

good read

I'm not Christian, but it makes sense.

I never understood those who claimed to be saved.

How do you know if your saved before Judgement Day?

You don't.

So shut ur trap.

That's why Christians work hard to do. It's a daily walk.

[Cambist]

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist. The thought of "dwelling with God" is not as compelling as avoiding eternal damnation and "de bloodfire" as my Yardies say.

The interesting thing is that with so many individual interpretation of what the Bible actually says, how do you know that what you are doing is enough to get you there?

Even more horrifying and disheartening is to read this and thing that you are PREDESTINED to go to Hell. If this is true then this is not a god I want to serve. If this is true and there is no chance at "salvation" then that makes "whatever gods may be" a hedonistic, sick and sadistic individual.

It is for this reason that I call bullchyt on this theory.

For good measure, read the rest of John 12. With predetermination, Judgement has no place. Why dismiss those who's hearts have been hardened and eyes blinded and leave them to judgement if their destiny is predetermined?

Miss me with this, her logic is baseless and her argument is asinine! **

**- Cam's impersonation of V. Prince. LOL!

[LogAKAlly <3'n Keef]

I hafta come back and read the verses to adequately comment.

But DEF - if Hell didn't exists what would Heaven be?

Sort of the "neccessary evil" thing.

I for one think there would be a lot of pissed off folks protesting the Pearly Gates if they found out EVERYONE was getting into Heaven.

Hell, if they found out the requirements weren't as high as they thought they'd be pissed!!

LMAO @ Paper Angels!!!

[huey]

Mar 23, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5 Cambist said:

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist. The thought of "dwelling with God" is not as compelling as avoiding eternal damnation and "de bloodfire" as my Yardies say.

The interesting thing is that with so many individual interpretation of what the Bible actually says, how do you know that what you are doing is enough to get you there?

Even more horrifying and disheartening is to read this and thing that you are PREDESTINED to go to Hell. If this is true then this is not a god I want to serve. If this is true and there is no chance at "salvation" then that makes "whatever gods may be" a hedonistic, sick and sadistic individual.

It is for this reason that I call bullchyt on this theory.

For good measure, read the rest of John 12. With predetermination, Judgement has no place. Why dismiss those who's hearts have been hardened and eyes blinded and leave them to judgement if their destiny is predetermined?

Miss me with this, her logic is baseless and her argument is asinine! **

**- Cam's impersonation of V. Prince. LOL!

Alot of African traditional religions/spiritual systems do not have an equivalent of Hell. I don't think you need a hell to scare people to do good.

[LogAKAlly <3'n Keef]

Mar 23, 2009 12:30:56 GMT -5 huey said:

Mar 23, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5 Cambist said:

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist. The thought of "dwelling with God" is not as compelling as avoiding eternal damnation and "de bloodfire" as my Yardies say.

The interesting thing is that with so many individual interpretation of what the Bible actually says, how do you know that what you are doing is enough to get you there?

Even more horrifying and disheartening is to read this and thing that you are PREDESTINED to go to Hell. If this is true then this is not a god I want to serve. If this is true and there is no chance at "salvation" then that makes "whatever gods may be" a hedonistic, sick and sadistic individual.

It is for this reason that I call bullchyt on this theory.

For good measure, read the rest of John 12. With predetermination, Judgement has no place. Why dismiss those who's hearts have been hardened and eyes blinded and leave them to judgement if their destiny is predetermined?

Miss me with this, her logic is baseless and her argument is asinine! **

**- Cam's impersonation of V. Prince. LOL!

Alot of African traditional religions/spiritual systems do not have an equivalent of Hell. I don't think you need a hell to scare people to do good.

But they do have consequences like, returning to a hellish life.

And the amount of people who attend your funeral is indicitive of your experience in the afterlife.

So there are eternal consequences to living immorally.

[Cambist]

Mar 23, 2009 12:30:56 GMT -5 huey said:

Mar 23, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5 Cambist said:

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist. The thought of "dwelling with God" is not as compelling as avoiding eternal damnation and "de bloodfire" as my Yardies say.

The interesting thing is that with so many individual interpretation of what the Bible actually says, how do you know that what you are doing is enough to get you there?

Even more horrifying and disheartening is to read this and thing that you are PREDESTINED to go to Hell. If this is true then this is not a god I want to serve. If this is true and there is no chance at "salvation" then that makes "whatever gods may be" a hedonistic, sick and sadistic individual.

It is for this reason that I call bullchyt on this theory.

For good measure, read the rest of John 12. With predetermination, Judgement has no place. Why dismiss those who's hearts have been hardened and eyes blinded and leave them to judgement if their destiny is predetermined?

Miss me with this, her logic is baseless and her argument is asinine! **

**- Cam's impersonation of V. Prince. LOL!

Alot of African traditional religions/spiritual systems do not have an equivalent of Hell. I don't think you need a hell to scare people to do good.

I'm not saying that it's absolutely necessary for everyone but I would argue that for the majority, it is MORE effective to have a negative consequence than it is to offer something good in return for obedience.

Like LogAKAl mentioned, many of those African traditions and religions had negative consequences for angering the spirits or ancestors or anyone else. You did "good" so as not to upset something or someone and thereby bring negative action upon yourself and/or your family and house.

[Highly Favored]

All of your comments have been very interesting.

I agree with whomever said that Christianity is a daily walk. I like to encourage people to look at God in a balanced way, as a God of mercy and grace as well as a God of judgement. Hell was not created for us and if God was anxious for us to go, He'd just take our lives the moment we commit our first sin. Instead, He extends to everyone a period of grace and then comes judgement.

Because the scriptures says God is not a respecter of persons, I don't believe He would create anyone especially for hell or especially for heaven. I do not believe in predestination in that sense of the word. Because God is all-knowing, I believe He knows who will accept Him and who will not, but it is all contingent upon the choice He knows we will make.

It is very difficult to serve God if the only motivation is to escape hell. I am not saying that avoiding hell is not a powerful motivator, but our principal motivation for serving God should be our love for Him. When we truly love someone, we do all that we can to please that person. We go out of our way for them and dedicate our lives to them. We don't always know that what we are doing for them is enough. Sometimes, it isn't, but that doesn't stop us from doing all we can. Our love for God should be no different.

The scripture plainly tells us that our salvation is not based on works, but faith. But it also says that, faith without works is dead. Only the individual him/herself knows the motive behind his/her work. There are lots of people who are doing lots of good things, but have no real relationship with God. They do things for which they, themselves, receive the glory or they have motives other than pleasing God and giving Him the glory. Heaven is for people who have a relationship with God. Gifts and callings are bestowed upon individuals without repentance. The gifts operate because there is a need. It has nothing to do with the person upon whom the gift was bestowed. They can still be rejected by God if their relationship with Him is not right.

A right relationship does not mean perfection. It does mean acknowledging our shortcomings and striving by the help of God to overcome them. We should never be comfortable when we know that there are areas in our lives that don't please God. The Bible tells us what sin is and sin does not please Him. Again, if we know that doing something is going to hurt someone we love, we try to avoid doing it.

And, as the scriptures state, after we have done all we can to please God, we, "the righteous will scarcely enter in." It is easy to look at a person that did "good" and assume they went to heaven and to look at a person that did "evil" and say they did not. At the end of the day, no one really knows for sure but God. That encourages me to live all I can for Him.

Sorry for the long post.

[LejaOMG]

Mar 23, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5 Cambist said:

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist.

No, it doesn't.
{~~ Christian
{~~ does NOT believe in hellfire

[Mrs. Eyes]

Please do not apologize HF. Your post was well stated.

I said Christianity is a dialy walk, which is true.

It's also about relationship and not about religion. You have to get to know God for yourself, not based on what others say about Him because you will only know OF Him.

I want to know Him daily because every new day is a blessing and a gift. I want to please Him and know Him not because of what the Word says, because that is something that EYE wish to do.

[Cambist]

Mar 23, 2009 13:38:34 GMT -5 LejaOMG said:

Mar 23, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5 Cambist said:

I had this conversation with an OOer not too long ago....

Christianity NEEDS Hell to exist.

No, it doesn't.
{~~ Christian
{~~ does NOT believe in hellfire

Coke needs sugar (or High Fructose Corn Syrup) to exist. Without the strength and addictive nature of the hard core product, Coke Zero and Diet Coke would 1)not exist and/or 2)soon cease to exist.

Not saying that JW are a knockoff just that they are a sect of a larger body that has held it's believers in check based on avoiding Hell.

Many Coke Original drinkers find their way to Zero or Diet at some time for whatever reason...health, sugar or caffene content, strong taste, etc....

JW have also used "scare tactics" to bring in new members.

"Are you ready for Jehovah's return?"

[DamieQue™]

Regarding the notion that God hates some of us and that He created some of us just to be destroyed:


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=31&context=context

1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:9;&version=31;
2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Moving on...

I am also a person who does not believe that there must be a hell for there to be a heaven or that hell is a necessary concept for Christianity. It's equivalent to me to saying that in order for a task to get done there must be a "stick" to inflict pain to make it happen. I say, "Not so". For some the carrot is just fine. It also does not logically compute to me that if there is a carrot that there must also be a stick. It may turn out that both exist but to say one is required for the other does not seem logical.

The pursuit of truth, the pursuit of meaning/purpose/understanding, the pursuit of love, the pursuit of wisdom are their own rewards - no one outside of that journey needs to be punished to make those pursuits relevant, worthwhile, or meaningful...

...anymore than someone needs to be flogged in order for your college graduation to be significant, important, and self-compelling.

Further, I submit to you that Hell is a state - it's location is arguably irrelevant. while we hear graphic descriptions about what goes on at that location - what we should notice is what's (or WHO is) NOT there - HELL is separation from God.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

As you can read for yourself - alot of unpleasantness happens in that separation. If one looks - one might see some parallels between man being kicked out of the Garden of Eden and the subsequent unpleasantness he has experienced ever since. Does anyone remember war, famine, pestilence, or death in the Garden of Eden? And keep in mind - we weren't completely separated from God when we got kicked out - but look at what just a little bit of distance got us? Now imagine we are completely separated and imagine what might befall you then? Just some food for thought.

Anyway I say all this to say there doesn't HAVE to be a hell (IMO)... there just is one. It does not exist (IMO) as a check against weyward Christians - it exists as a RESULT of weyward people. God would be just fine with all of us being saved...

...or at least those scriptures I quoted seemed to indicate. Judge for yourself though.

[water]

Matthews 25:


31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[THE emPRISS]

I read part of one paragraph and I think she is a fruit loop....sorry NSN, I know that's your friend.

[No Screen Name]

LOL Priss, she's a "Facebook Friend". I've never even met her.

I wish I could have posted the entire thing, but it would have taken up several pages. LOL