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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 16, 2008 11:19:31 GMT -5
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
belief that is not based on proof:
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Post by huey on Dec 16, 2008 11:25:52 GMT -5
It seems to me that God will fall outside the scope of your definition of Atheist, because God is not a "person".
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 16, 2008 11:33:17 GMT -5
It seems to me that God will fall outside the scope of your definition of Atheist, because God is not a "person". Where in your bible does it state that your God isn't a person? Show me? Furthermore as it states in your bible your god made every animal and even the "creeping thing" so how could we know they don't have faith and or believe in your God? |
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Post by huey on Dec 16, 2008 11:43:00 GMT -5
It seems to me that God will fall outside the scope of your definition of Atheist, because God is not a "person". Where in your bible does it state that your God isn't a person? Show me? Furthermore as it states in your bible your god made every animal and even the "creeping thing" so how could we know they don't have faith and or believe in your God? I don't have a Bible. I didn't know this question was directed to Christians only. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 16, 2008 11:54:09 GMT -5
Well pull out your Tanakh(torah), or Quran with accompanying Hadith I mean they all are one in the same in most repsects since Gabriel is a central figure in all three.
So take a stab at it. Show me in any three of them were it states your Jehovah, Elohim, Lord, Mahdi, Allah, is NOT a person.
Shall we answer what IS a person first?
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Post by Cambist on Dec 16, 2008 15:21:54 GMT -5
Please because without some hard operationally defined terms this conversation is doomed to be circular.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 17, 2008 12:30:07 GMT -5
Well pull out your Tanakh(torah), or Quran with accompanying Hadith I mean they all are one in the same in most repsects since Gabriel is a central figure in all three. So take a stab at it. Show me in any three of them were it states your Jehovah, Elohim, Lord, Mahdi, Allah, is NOT a person. Shall we answer what IS a person first?
*Still waiting on the definition of person*
p.s. are YOU an atheist? |
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Post by water on Dec 17, 2008 21:08:27 GMT -5
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 17, 2008 23:11:12 GMT -5
Well pull out your Tanakh(torah), or Quran with accompanying Hadith I mean they all are one in the same in most repsects since Gabriel is a central figure in all three. So take a stab at it. Show me in any three of them were it states your Jehovah, Elohim, Lord, Mahdi, Allah, is NOT a person. Shall we answer what IS a person first?
*Still waiting on the definition of person*
p.s. are YOU an atheist?
God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
It had help... Are we the helpers? Are we apart of the Godhead? Is this entity(s) really indebted to us?n. 1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson. 2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance. 3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self. 4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person. 5. Physique and general appearance. 6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties. 7. Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them. 8. Grammar. 1. Any of three groups of pronoun forms with corresponding verb inflections that distinguish the speaker (first person), the individual addressed (second person), and the individual or thing spoken of (third person). 2. Any of the different forms or inflections expressing these distinctions. 9. A character or role, as in a play; a guise: “Well, in her person, I say I will not have you” (Shakespeare). |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 18, 2008 0:24:18 GMT -5
conceived
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conceived
1 a: to become pregnant with (young) <conceive a child> b: to cause to begin : originate <a project conceived by the company's founder>
2 a: to take into one's mind <conceive a prejudice> b: to form a conception of : imagine <a badly conceived design>
3: to apprehend by reason or imagination : understand <unable to conceive his reasons>
4: to have as an opinion <I cannot conceive that he acted alone>intransitive verb
person
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person
1: human , individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson><spokesperson>
2: a character or part in or as if in a play : guise
3 a: one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b: the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 aarchaic : bodily appearance b: the body of a human being ; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5: the personality of a human being : self
6: one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7: reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
So in conclusion, no God is not an atheist you have to cherry pick semantics to come to another conclusion. For example if text says God is conceived, one could argue that if He was conceived that meant he was helped along by outside forces. It also however requires you to ignore all the other definitions of conceived and assume that the one you picked is the only possible choice
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 18, 2008 0:31:42 GMT -5
conceived
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conceived
1 a: to become pregnant with (young) <conceive a child> b: to cause to begin : originate <a project conceived by the company's founder>
2 a: to take into one's mind <conceive a prejudice> b: to form a conception of : imagine <a badly conceived design>
3: to apprehend by reason or imagination : understand <unable to conceive his reasons>
4: to have as an opinion <I cannot conceive that he acted alone>intransitive verb
person
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person
1: human , individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson><spokesperson>
2: a character or part in or as if in a play : guise
3 a: one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b: the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 aarchaic : bodily appearance b: the body of a human being ; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5: the personality of a human being : self
6: one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7: reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
So in conclusion, no God is not an atheist you have to cherry pick semantics to come to another conclusion. For example if text says God is conceived, one could argue that if He was conceived that meant he was helped along by outside forces. It also however requires you to ignore all the other definitions of conceived and assume that the one you picked is the only possible choice Hmmm so if God isn't an Atheist then who is it's Supreme Being? |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 18, 2008 0:53:16 GMT -5
God IS the supreme being
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 18, 2008 1:00:16 GMT -5
Okay well see my first post in this thread. If that's the case then your God IS an Atheist. |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 18, 2008 1:02:51 GMT -5
See being a theist revolves around the fact that you are willingly submitting to a higher power. If your God is that only higher power then how can it be a theist when it has nothing to submit to, have faith in or belief?
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 18, 2008 1:41:29 GMT -5
theistwww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theist: belief in the existence of a god or gods ; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world Not that it's actually applicable, but if we follow the logic I think I hear you espousing, if God believes in Himself - if He believes He is Who He says He is - then that about covers it right?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 18, 2008 1:57:33 GMT -5
theistwww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theist: belief in the existence of a god or gods ; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world Not that it's actually applicable, but if we follow the logic I think I hear you espousing, if God believes in Himself - if He believes He is Who He says He is - then that about covers it right? Ummmm no. lol If we are going to apply theism to this Supreme enity then we can not exclude faith which is the hallmark of theism. Faith as it applies to us means having a belief in something that has yet to be proven. See there is not reason to have faith and or belief in something that has already been proven. Like do you have faith in your existence? NO Why? Because you can "feel" that you exist. You only have faith in things you have yet to do but are sure you can accomplish. If an omnipresent being has nothing to accomplish and knows all then how can it have faith? How can it believe? Thats unless... there were other's before it that serve as a measuring rod |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 18, 2008 2:49:19 GMT -5
theistwww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theist: belief in the existence of a god or gods ; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world Not that it's actually applicable, but if we follow the logic I think I hear you espousing, if God believes in Himself - if He believes He is Who He says He is - then that about covers it right? Ummmm no. lol If we are going to apply theism to this Supreme enity then we can not exclude faith which is the hallmark of theism. Faith as it applies to us means having a belief in something that has yet to be proven. See there is not reason to have faith and or belief in something that has already been proven. Like do you have faith in your existence? NO Why? Because you can "feel" that you exist. You only have faith in things you have yet to do but are sure you can accomplish. If an omnipresent being has nothing to accomplish and knows all then how can it have faith? How can it believe? Thats unless... there were other's before it that serve as a measuring rod
LOL - so I think I get your reasoning. If God cannot be a theist then He is an atheist (which is not entirely true since he could be a nontheist but whatever) this appears to be the argument...
...just one teeny tiny problem - Atheism is a BELIEF just as much as theism. LOL - you know what that means right? It also requires faith - and since we've just established a supreme being doesn't require faith since it is omnipotent - by your own logic God CANNOT be an atheist.
For that matter God cannot be a nontheist either but you get the gist. I think you have just successfully demonstrated again why OUR man made titles don't apply to God. |
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Post by **Dea** on Dec 18, 2008 2:49:27 GMT -5
Ooooh...I wanna play!
PAUSE:
I know, I know....you're suprised to see me in here...but I actually like this one...
: PLAY
So yeah...to answer the question...YES and NO....
I call myself a Christian (mainly) cause me and Jesus are homies...but I don't think my religion is nec the only path to greatness...yadda yadda yadda....
But, in my regard...under christianity....Jesus is the example that we are supposed to strive to walk like...and Jesus wasn't anywhere near an Atheist. So, while I see your point...I don't think the rule of Atheism applies to God because God basically lets you know time and time again that he can do what he pleases and you are not to question him...but to not have complete chaos on this planet he gave us an example of what he wants us to be like.
So yeah...now for people who say Jesus is God....that just messes up what I just said...and it contradicts what HE, himself, said (or what the folk that wrote that book said he said)....so we not gone talk about that...
Now my other blanket "religion"....um...yeah...that dude was a person too.....could he be considered an Atheist? Maybe...but who cares?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 18, 2008 3:08:34 GMT -5
Ummmm no. lol If we are going to apply theism to this Supreme enity then we can not exclude faith which is the hallmark of theism. Faith as it applies to us means having a belief in something that has yet to be proven. See there is not reason to have faith and or belief in something that has already been proven. Like do you have faith in your existence? NO Why? Because you can "feel" that you exist. You only have faith in things you have yet to do but are sure you can accomplish. If an omnipresent being has nothing to accomplish and knows all then how can it have faith? How can it believe? Thats unless... there were other's before it that serve as a measuring rod
LOL - so I think I get your reasoning. If God cannot be a theist then He is an atheist (which is not entirely true since he could be a nontheist but whatever) this appears to be the argument...
...just one teeny tiny problem - Atheism is a BELIEF just as much as theism. LOL - you know what that means right? It also requires faith - and since we've just established a supreme being doesn't require faith since it is omnipotent - by your own logic God CANNOT be an atheist.
For that matter God cannot be a nontheist either but you get the gist. I think you have just successfully demonstrated again why OUR man made titles don't apply to God. This would have more fire IF I thought it was ONE supreme being but I don't..... I think it is a Host of beings and we can all strive to be apart of that never ending or beginning paradigm. When we put finite terms of beginning and end points then problems arise (Hence our discussion on Zero). I think this is the very reason that science in the bible as it pertains to creation story isn't present...... but when you look else where like that of the Dogon and Kemet you see a differencce how they apply to science . Example Feminine Symbol of Venus  Kemetian Older Symbol of The Ankh or life  |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Dec 18, 2008 10:36:19 GMT -5
LOL - so I think I get your reasoning. If God cannot be a theist then He is an atheist (which is not entirely true since he could be a nontheist but whatever) this appears to be the argument...
...just one teeny tiny problem - Atheism is a BELIEF just as much as theism. LOL - you know what that means right? It also requires faith - and since we've just established a supreme being doesn't require faith since it is omnipotent - by your own logic God CANNOT be an atheist.
For that matter God cannot be a nontheist either but you get the gist. I think you have just successfully demonstrated again why OUR man made titles don't apply to God. This would have more fire IF I thought it was ONE supreme being but I don't..... I think it is a Host of beings and we can all strive to be apart of that never ending or beginning paradigm. When we put finite terms of beginning and end points then problems arise (Hence our discussion on Zero). I think this is the very reason that science in the bible as it pertains to creation story isn't present...... but when you look else where like that of the Dogon and Kemet you see a differencce how they apply to science . Example Feminine Symbol of Venus Kemetian Older Symbol of The Ankh or life
I don't see the problem with using finite terms - to characterize an aspect of God. It is true that "beginning" and "end" are finite terms, but when an entity is characterized as being both the end result is infinite. And ultimately all we have are finite terms, that we attempt to use to understand God. I don't for a second believe that He is bound by our limited intellects, imaginations, vocabularies, and/or definitions. It is just our way of best trying to describe Him and understand Him.The "zero" discussion occurred because it was alleged that something couldn't be the beginning and the end at the same time - I believe that discussion proved otherwise. That doesn't mean that God is literally the number zero, zero would just be one way to try to characterize and contextualize God by people with a limited capacity to really know all that God is.
p.s. The theory of relativity makes more than a few appearances in the Bible, including the story of creation. You simply have to understand that time as experienced by man is not the same as time that expires around God. But if you've already decided the Bible isn't true or that there must be an exact conversion factor for you to believe well... no one is going to convince you otherwise. |
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Post by chatterbox on Dec 18, 2008 10:42:44 GMT -5
*sighs*
This is a prime example why weed should be illegal (with all due respect)!
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Post by huey on Dec 18, 2008 11:10:50 GMT -5
*Still waiting on the definition of person*
p.s. are YOU an atheist?
God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
It had help... Are we the helpers? Are we apart of the Godhead? Is this entity(s) really indebted to us?n. 1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson. 2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance. 3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self. 4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person. 5. Physique and general appearance. 6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties. 7. Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them. 8. Grammar. 1. Any of three groups of pronoun forms with corresponding verb inflections that distinguish the speaker (first person), the individual addressed (second person), and the individual or thing spoken of (third person). 2. Any of the different forms or inflections expressing these distinctions. 9. A character or role, as in a play; a guise: “Well, in her person, I say I will not have you” (Shakespeare). Of course you like definition #3, it makes your argument easy! But that means if God is a person, then my dog is a person, my fish is a person,etc. |
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on Dec 18, 2008 12:09:28 GMT -5
*sighs* This is a prime example why weed should be illegal (with all due respect)! I LAUGHED SO HARD WHEN I READ THIS! |
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Post by Highly Favored on Dec 18, 2008 17:47:54 GMT -5
This would have more fire IF I thought it was ONE supreme being but I don't..... I think it is a Host of beings and we can all strive to be apart of that never ending or beginning paradigm. When we put finite terms of beginning and end points then problems arise (Hence our discussion on Zero). I think this is the very reason that science in the bible as it pertains to creation story isn't present...... but when you look else where like that of the Dogon and Kemet you see a differencce how they apply to science . Example Feminine Symbol of Venus Kemetian Older Symbol of The Ankh or life
I don't see the problem with using finite terms - to characterize an aspect of God. It is true that "beginning" and "end" are finite terms, but when an entity is characterized as being both the end result is infinite. And ultimately all we have are finite terms, that we attempt to use to understand God. I don't for a second believe that He is bound by our limited intellects, imaginations, vocabularies, and/or definitions. It is just our way of best trying to describe Him and understand Him.The "zero" discussion occurred because it was alleged that something couldn't be the beginning and the end at the same time - I believe that discussion proved otherwise. That doesn't mean that God is literally the number zero, zero would just be one way to try to characterize and contextualize God by people with a limited capacity to really know all that God is.
p.s. The theory of relativity makes more than a few appearances in the Bible, including the story of creation. You simply have to understand that time as experienced by man is not the same as time that expires around God. But if you've already decided the Bible isn't true or that there must be an exact conversion factor for you to believe well... no one is going to convince you otherwise. Exactly. That is why I usually don't participate in these types of discussions. Interesting dialogue, though. |
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Post by Southie on Dec 19, 2008 11:14:23 GMT -5
<<<waiting on denounce and water to invade the thread
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 19, 2008 16:09:21 GMT -5
<<<waiting on denounce and water to invade the thread Ha don't hold your breath... lol Denounced defiantly won't come up in here. He has been destroyed for sometime now.. LOL |
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Post by water on Dec 19, 2008 16:16:47 GMT -5
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Post by denounced on Dec 21, 2008 21:14:37 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 1 Corinthians 15:32-34 32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. Galatians 2:20 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Who has been destroyed?  II Corinthians 4:9 9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; |
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Dec 21, 2008 23:14:17 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 1 Corinthians 15:32-34 32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. Galatians 2:20 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Who has been destroyed? II Corinthians 4:9 9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; lol Who gives a flying fuck what Paul thinks? How can you revere Paul but state John Smith of the Mormon church is a zealot when he basically did the same shit?  |
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Post by denounced on Jan 7, 2009 12:04:31 GMT -5
Your hatred of Paul is quite evident. My advice to you is to forgive him for whatever he has done to you.
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