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Post by No Screen Name on Mar 5, 2008 22:49:01 GMT -5
You're right...it *IS* another thread altogether...and here it is! ;D
Please tell me more.
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 6, 2008 14:26:31 GMT -5
I'll try and keep this relatively short...lol
The premise of "false conversions" for me is found in the b clause of Romans 8:9 where it states "But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. " We are ALL God's creation, but we are not all God's children.
To say that "I am saved" is essentially claim that you have received the Spirit of Christ into your heart and soul. And more importantly, not everyone who says the prayer with Joel Osteen at the end of his service has truly received Christ. Because though they profess it with their mouth, their hearts are far from him.
Nupey raised a point about confessing it with your mouth, that Jesus raised from the dead etc. then your saved. Nonetheless, the scripture states, IF you believe in your heart AND confess with your mouth. A lot of people don't really believe it and it shows in their actions.
Akbar made a great point in the other thread to which I really agree. He pointed out that many immature Christians are extremely immature and have no idea how to discern God, and their lack of discernment causes them to live a lifestyle that is not evident of their new found commitment. I agree with that, but "false conversions" are beyond that.
I believe that many of these false conversions are found at "socially oriented" churches where reaching out socially is their main goal. (Ex. Homeless missions etc.). Now, these are definitely noble causes of which every church should employ, but the problem is presented where you have people that do not believe in the risen Christ in their hearts, doing the work of a "Christian". So on the outside, they are heralded as Christ's disciples, but in reality they have never received His spirit into their hearts, nor do they feel its necessary to believe in fundamental truths of resurrection, atonement etc.
I deal with a lot of these people at my divinity school. They are passionate about the economy and the fight against racism, sexism etc, but they have NO problem in the world drinking like fish, cursing, fornicating, you name it. They claim to be rescued from the guilt of sin, but are denying the Christ that can save them from the power of sin.
Hence, they have been psychologically converted into a social gospel, not a spiritual one.
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Post by THE emPRISS on Mar 21, 2008 19:12:25 GMT -5
Jay,
very interesting. i was just reading the about the difference between turning your back on God v. people like Judas. It was very enlightening. I have to remember where I read it but it was basically saying how denying God but really having Him in your heart and returning to God is not the same as Judas....who never really had Christ in his heart.
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Post by denounced on Mar 26, 2008 18:02:34 GMT -5
The people who make this claim about Judas never having Christ in His heart have no evidence for this. What we do have is evidence that he was chosen as a disciple, went out with the 12 and performed miracles, but then something happened.........Satan entered
Usually people who support this belief tht Judas was never saved, are those who believe in, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)? They must subscribe to this, or their whole premise goes down the drain.
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 26, 2008 20:02:27 GMT -5
So Are we saying that one can lose their salvation? Interesting...
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Post by akbarjones on Mar 27, 2008 8:30:44 GMT -5
Someone can fall from Grace but they cannot lose salvation. Jesus does not forsake his flock. Once you have accepted Christ your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life for eternity. Jesus has paid our sin debt in full.
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Post by water on Mar 30, 2008 1:54:15 GMT -5
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Post by denounced on Mar 30, 2008 7:57:06 GMT -5
Giving it up freely and losing it are two completely different things. To say that we lose our free-will after we get saved is a pretty strong statement as well. If our free-will was nailed down, then why all the warnings. Once I get saved, and I know that NO MATTER WHAT I DO I WILL GO TO HEAVEN, then why be focused on living right. I can simply deny the Blood of Jesus after I accepted it, and become a whoremonging drunk. OSAS is a license to sin. This is about as bad as catholicism;
Sin-Go To Confession-Sin the Same Sin Again-Go To Confession.............................At least they do some form of forgiveness (penance).
Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
FORSAKE
No New Testament Scriptures make this proclamation of OSAS.
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:36:35 GMT -5
The people who make this claim about Judas never having Christ in His heart have no evidence for this. What we do have is evidence that he was chosen as a disciple, went out with the 12 and performed miracles, but then something happened.........Satan entered Usually people who support this belief tht Judas was never saved, are those who believe in, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)? They must subscribe to this, or their whole premise goes down the drain. Sorry but your assumption is wrong. Where do you get the idea that "usually people who support this belief that Judas was never saved..."? Judas played an important role in the death of Christ. Are you suggesting that Jesus did not KNOW that Judas was going to betray him? Are you suggesting that Judas was not apart of God's divine plan? Judas was apart of God's perfect plan, he was chosen for a purpose. Yours is a really interesting "take" on Judas and salvation. The "requirement" for salvation is clear...it's more than professing with your mouth, going to church or "following" the crowd...which is what Judas did...if Jesus truly was in his heart, he would never have traited on him. Sure, he was chosen (for a reason), sure he was with 12 but that does not "evidence" that he was truly saved. However, his ability to do what he did, is evidence that he was not who he held himself out to be. |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:42:37 GMT -5
Someone can fall from Grace but they cannot lose salvation. Jesus does not forsake his flock. Once you have accepted Christ your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life for eternity. Jesus has paid our sin debt in full. Hmmm....I dont know about this one. On the other hand, if someone truly accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior (NOT just lipservice), and despite their sin continuously seek Him and repent, I can agree...but someone who becomes saved and then later is like "Eeeh...whatever! Im going to do whatever b/c Im saved..."(then again, if you think like that are you really saved?) I dont really believe that. You have to still make a sincere attempt at trying to live right and follow the Word. Interesting quandry. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Apr 6, 2008 15:02:36 GMT -5
I just read something I wanted to share. According to John 6:64-71, Judas NEVER believed.
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Post by denounced on Apr 6, 2008 17:24:00 GMT -5
OOA is where greek Christians come to have their rumspringa time.
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Post by denounced on Apr 6, 2008 17:29:15 GMT -5
NSN- Remember what jay said about context. Those who did not believe walked away, but who stayed? Betrayal does not mean 3 years of unbelief either. I do believe this to be worth studying and getting back to you.
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Post by No Screen Name on Apr 6, 2008 18:07:35 GMT -5
NSN- Remember what jay said about context. Those who did not believe walked away, but who stayed? Betrayal does not mean 3 years of unbelief either. I do believe this to be worth studying and getting back to you. But it's this verse in particular that makes me think Jesus was referring to Judas, and that he never believed: But I'd still like to know your thoughts. |
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Post by denounced on Apr 6, 2008 20:06:13 GMT -5
What you think is of no consequence when you read the whole scripture in context. Please read the entire chapter, and you will see that many left him for what he said. Let me give you some advice. Read ALL scriptures about Judas!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Search1906 on Apr 6, 2008 23:57:45 GMT -5
I have to agree. Reading all scripture pertaining to a topic or persons will give you a clearer picture when coupled with prayer and meditation.
I will also offer this up for thought. If you remember the 12 walked with jesus for 3 years as he healed, raised the dead, taught and did other miracles. They being jews knew at least the basic scriptures in the Torah and Jesus taught them he was the fulfillment of the promised Messiah yet they still were shaken to the core when he was crucified and died. They scattered like those with no hope in the aftermath of the crucifixion and Jesus found them hiding in a room. Does this sound like people who were the picture of belief and faith? I think one has to dig a bit deeper when dealing with Judas and his salvation. You'd be surprise what you may find.
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Post by No Screen Name on Apr 7, 2008 9:54:00 GMT -5
Searchin and Denounced--I DID read the entire chapter. I don't know why you assume that I didn't. When Jesus said that He was the key to eternal life, many of His followers thought that was blasphemous, and bounced. But at the same time, that scripture is as plain as the nose on my face.
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Post by coldfront06 on Apr 7, 2008 9:57:41 GMT -5
If you don't agree with Denounced, that means you must not have read the Bible correctly, because he has all the answers...lol.
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Post by No Screen Name on Apr 7, 2008 10:27:35 GMT -5
LOL! Man. I've met people like him before...Them: "Are you saved?" Me: "Yes". Them: "Are you sure? How do you know?" And next thing you know, you're involved in a hour-long discussion.
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Post by denounced on Apr 7, 2008 17:23:32 GMT -5
Have you read all scriptures concerning Judas over again?
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 7, 2008 21:53:19 GMT -5
LOL! Man. I've met people like him before...Them: "Are you saved?" Me: "Yes". Them: "Are you sure? How do you know?" And next thing you know, you're involved in a hour-long discussion. LOL....yup... I look at how many times one says, "Yes, I saved" and how many times someone makes reference to/alludes to/or "discounts" someone else's salvation and spiritual walk. Think... The goal? to destroy your Christian witness... Oh well, what can you do?  Smile, nod, keep it movin'!  |
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Smile, nod, keep it movin'! 