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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 9:31:19 GMT -5
Will you go to Heaven or Hell....?
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 9:41:03 GMT -5
Do not pass go, do not collect $200! Go straight to Hell!!!!
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 9:44:09 GMT -5
good question.
generally, folks that take their own lives suffer from some form of mental illness. basically, they're not in a rational state when they commit the act. so should they be denied heaven because of an act committed in a state of illness? If they lived a full, productive, righteous life, should they be denied heaven because of one act committed because they heard/saw things that weren't there? hmmm.....
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 9:46:52 GMT -5
I think it's different if you're in a rational state of mind, in control of your thoughts and faculties and you take your life. but if you've severely decompensated mentally, are having auditory and visual halucinations and are clearly in the clutches of a mental illness, I'm not so sure that one should be "penalized", so to speak.
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 9:48:28 GMT -5
Yeah, but your rationale enought to pick up a gun and end your life, then you probably wont make it into heaven...IMO
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 9:53:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but your rationale enought to pick up a gun and end your life, then you probably wont make it into heaven...IMO dude, you're looking at it form the standpoint of an individual who is mentally healthy. Try to place yourself in the shoes of someone suffering from schizophrenia who is in a severe state of psychosis. They're hearing shit and seeing shit that ain't there. And the voices are telling them all kinds of evil shit, including "kill yourself." How can you possibly be responsible for your actions when you've completely lost your grip on reality? It's one thing to be physically sick but my heart goes out those who are mentally ill. To lose your very mind is, to me, a far worse postion to be in than any physical illness.... |
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 9:56:08 GMT -5
Yeah I can imagine.....ok, No I CANT......but this is a problem FAR beyond my ability to comprehend. God said, Do not Kill....you are invaribaly killing yourself with NO opportunity to repent....so I dont know....
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 9:59:37 GMT -5
I usually do not like to discuss or partake in religious discussions because I feel that your walk with Christ and your beliefs are personal and the bible/word can be interpreted in many different ways however, the bible says:
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
It's clearly in black and white. On a personal level though, I think suicide is selfish and I speak from personal experience. That is something that is VERY hard to forgive. And I'm not speaking on behalf of the mortally insane or dysfunctional. I'm talking about regular sane folks who woke up one day said, "I don't like the hand I was dealt" and ended their life. That's some ish right there!!! It ain't right!!!
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:00:39 GMT -5
mental illness hits home with me. my mother was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, schizoaffective disorder and psychosis. I've seen first hand how mentall illness can cripple a life.
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 10:02:21 GMT -5
Not just that Mocha....how can you repent after you are dead? You can't repent BEFORE you do it, you have to repent AFTER you do it....
I suppose if you shot your self in the head and lived for about 3 hours and THEN repented then you could make it in...but whats the chances of you living from a gunshot to the head?
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:03:00 GMT -5
Mocha, I agree with you that if you have control of your faculties, taking your life can definitely be viewed as a selfish act. But you cannot lump all suicide victims into one category. Some who do it do not have control of their minds and have lost touch with reality....
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Post by goldenepiphany on Feb 28, 2008 10:09:57 GMT -5
<----Knows Two People That Commited Suicide....
One Was A Mother And I Think She WAs Totally Selfish To Leave Her 23 Year Old To Take Care Of A 16 Year Old
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 10:11:46 GMT -5
How can you NOT have control of your mind if you have PLANNED and INTENDED to kill yourself? The only "animals" on the planet who can PLAN an rational and IRRATIONALE action are humans. They KNOW the result of pulling the trigger, therefore they KNOW it IS suicide....
Aces are you saying people who've NEVER heard of suicide should be excused because they didnt KNOW what would happen if they shot themeselves?
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Post by akbarjones on Feb 28, 2008 10:18:18 GMT -5
Suicide equals eternal separation from God.
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 10:18:56 GMT -5
Mocha, I agree with you that if you have control of your faculties, taking your life can definitely be viewed as a selfish act. But you cannot lump all suicide victims into one category. Some who do it do not have control of their minds and have lost touch with reality.... By no means am I grouping ALL suicide victims into one category. I did say I am NOT speaking of the mental insane or dysfunctional. I know, in cases like that (speaking from experience as well) there are some mental disorders where they hear voices that tell them to do some REALLY crazy things including harm themselves (and/or others). So IF they have a mental history and committed suicide, then I understand it was something beyond their control. But to be sane and rational and do something like that is damn near ( all can be forgiven) unforgivable and no they can not repent AFTER the fact! |
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Post by Champs Elysees on Feb 28, 2008 10:19:18 GMT -5
I watched a documentary on the missing books of the bible. In one of the books, Jesus told a prophet that there is redemption, even from hell. The saints (people who did not go to hell) have to sincerely pray for the lost. The rationale of the church to leave that book out was that if people knew that even if they went to hell they could still be saved, they would not live right at all.
My point in telling you this? People who commit suicide are no more lost than the rest of us.
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 10:23:07 GMT -5
Whatever Lady...thats a story in unto itself. Once your there, your ETERNALLY SEPERATED from God....
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:24:53 GMT -5
How can you NOT have control of your mind if you have PLANNED and INTENDED to kill yourself? The only "animals" on the planet who can PLAN an rational and IRRATIONALE action are humans. They KNOW the result of pulling the trigger, therefore they KNOW it IS suicide.... Aces are you saying people who've NEVER heard of suicide should be excused because they didnt KNOW what would happen if they shot themeselves? no. what I'm saying is that if you do not have control of your thoughts and suffer from a debilitating mental illness which causes you to do things that, when you're mentally stable, you wouldn't normally do, then this needs to be looked at when debating if one qualifies for hell or not. |
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 10:27:40 GMT -5
What Qualifies as mentally stable?
There was this one dude that was busted on Datelines "To catch a predator" and committed suicide because he was caught....
Was he "MENTALLY" instable because he probably panicked and could imagine how is life would go on after being arrested? I think not my firend...
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 10:29:27 GMT -5
My point in telling you this? People who commit suicide are no more lost than the rest of us. Well, as long as you are ALIVE you can be lost and then found by seeking Christ and his word, BUT to commit suicide, you will be FOREVER lost! Suicide is end all be all. There is no correcting or recovering from that IMO. To commit suicide ( to me) is like a slap in GOD's face. |
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:31:10 GMT -5
What Qualifies as mentally stable? There was this one dude that was busted on Datelines "To catch a predator" and committed suicide because he was caught.... Was he "MENTALLY" instable because he probably panicked and could imagine how is life would go on after being arrested? I think not my firend... Nupey, I've stated in past posts that the situation takes on a different texture when one is sane and rational. in the case you provided, it seems that the individual copped out. that's not the same as a person in the throws of a deep psychosis and the voices are telling them to harm themsleves and take their shoelaces off and hang themselves because they're evil and wretched. This is a completely different situation than the one you've described. |
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Spawn1963
OOA Interest
I will NOT lose
Posts: 34
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Post by Spawn1963 on Feb 28, 2008 10:32:08 GMT -5
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple. 'Destroying the temple' would include the process of progressively destroying the temple. If a person uses a gun or a slower means of self-destruction then the theory of eternal punishment would hold true. Therefore, we are condemning everyone that uses drugs or even doesn't eat properly in the same category as the person shooting himself. (Many may cite the 'Fallacy of the Slippery Slope' here, but we must recognize the absolutes that most people agree that God upholds.) There is no question that suicide is not desired by God, nor is God's will for anyone (even Judas). However, I don't think that suicide is beyond the scope of sins pardoned by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe a man's eternal destiny is decided by his last rational action on Earth (unless that action is to accept and believe in his redemption by way of Jesus' payment for his sins.) |
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:35:10 GMT -5
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple. 'Destroying the temple' would include the process of progressively destroying the temple. If a person uses a gun or a slower means of self-destruction then the theory of eternal punishment would hold true. Therefore, we are condemning everyone that uses drugs or even doesn't eat properly in the same category as the person shooting himself. (Many may cite the 'Fallacy of the Slippery Slope' here, but we must recognize the absolutes that most people agree that God upholds.) There is no question that suicide is not desired by God, nor is God's will for anyone (even Judas). However, I don't think that suicide is beyond the scope of sins pardoned by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe a man's eternal destiny is decided by his last rational action on Earth (unless that action is to accept and believe in his redemption by way of Jesus' payment for his sins.) and this is the point I've been trying to make. If the act is irrational ie is birthed out of mental imbalance, how can one be held accountable? |
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Post by water on Feb 28, 2008 10:36:44 GMT -5
If you have the Holy Spirit suicide is not going to happen if you have the spirit of the anti -christ suicide is what satan is all about ......a gun to the head is quick suicide, all unrepented sin is suicde its just that some rebellion takes longer to kill like lying or whoremongering . If you never entered Heaven(Yahshua) on earth how can you have it when you die ? You can not. those who are outside of Jesus Christ need to get in Jesus Christ and those who are in Yahshua/Jesus /The Kingdom of Heaven need to endure to the end. and they shall be saved.
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Post by Nupey on Feb 28, 2008 10:43:01 GMT -5
I guess by that we need to observe if its the LAST SIN that can get you gone...
Like what if the rapture took place and you just Lied to your girlfriend about getting her a present when you really did? Would you miss it?
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Post by ACES on Feb 28, 2008 10:43:48 GMT -5
If you have the Holy Spirit suicide is not going to happen if you have the spirit of the anti -christ suicide is what satan is all about ......a gun to the head is quick suicide, all unrepented sin is suicde its just that some rebellion takes longer to kill like lying or whoremongering . If you never entered Heaven(Yahshua) on earth how can you have it when you die ? You can not. those who are outside of Jesus Christ need to get in Jesus Christ and those who are in Yahshua/Jesus /The Kingdom of Heaven need to endure to the end. and they shall be saved. so how do you account for the individual diagnosed with severe and persistent paranoide schizophrenia and psychotic disorder who, when not on medication, decompensates to the point that they hear voices who tell him that he needs to harm himself and take his life? Let me add that they're saved, live a saved life and are very active in the church when mentally stable. the response should be......entertaining at best.... |
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 10:53:32 GMT -5
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Post by water on Feb 28, 2008 11:03:33 GMT -5
God knows our Heart so he is not dealing with Just our confession He is dealing with the Heart of Man.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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Post by 123Diva on Feb 28, 2008 11:22:10 GMT -5
I have yet to see Biblical support that a person who commits suicide automatically goes to hell.
I have heard this time and time again, but have not been shown any support...
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Post by MochaD on Feb 28, 2008 11:23:24 GMT -5
^^it's all a matter of interpretation Diva.
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