The Issues: Amnesty

[Gee-Are]

Ok...I was gonna start a free-for all thread about the issues pertinent to you, but I figured that would get crazy. It may turn into that ultimately, but first I want to start the discussion with the issue of Amnesty.


Is it important to you? Are you interested in what happens to the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country? Do you feel like Lou Dobbs on CNN?

I was having this conversation with someone last night and they brought up that as an African-American she's pissed off if immigrants get amnesty, because she feels like it's a slap in the face for us. Basically, if illegal immigrants can be forgiven and not be required to pay back taxes on time they've spent here, and also have a free pass to become citizens, then why can't black men and women who've been convicted of crimes become legal citizens again and be able to vote, etc.? Why can't African-Americans receive reparations, or at least a damned apology?


She basically went on this rant, and at the core of the talk, I was like eh. However, she was also quite convincing, and made me think. I have issues with full out amnesty, but I understand that immediately deporting that many people could throw our economy in a tailspin, because whilst people are hurting for jobs, in all likelihood, no one wants to take those jobs for the wages being given.

So what do you think?

In the course of the convo, maybe you can figure out how you stand, and how the candidates match up with what you think.

[Fraternal Design]

This is a complex issue.

I am in favor of a fair to lenient immigration policy.

I am in favor of all citizens having the right to vote, including incarcerated citizens and those who have done their time.

I am not in favor of reparations for slavery.

I am not necessarily in favor of a tax amnesty, but I just don't know.

[Gee-Are]

Actually, I don't think she realistically believes that reparations should be made, however, if amnesty is on the table and does happen...Why couldn't reparations?

@ FD - Do you feel that immigrants that have already made it here should be allowed to stay in the country while they become citizens? Is your concern about the tax amnesty the issue of enforcement?

[DamieQue™]

Some industries will tell you that they have to have cheap labor... if they have to have cheap labor by way of illegal immigrants in order to survive they should die. If these same industries said they had to have child labor for more than 40 hours a week to keep prices down - NONE of us would accept that as an answer... why? Because it's illegal. Same premise here.

And truth be told, it has been alleged that many of the companies using this cheap illegal labor AREN'T passing the savings on to the consumers anyway... the reduced labor costs has translated into profits NOT discounts.

In the process they keep wages artificially low, because otherwise to get the labor they need, they would have to pay more. Average Americans are not going to take many of the jobs that are available for the pay that's available. That pay is low because their is a surplus labor. You can think Reagan and his boys for this. They were the ones, who it could be said, held their noses and granted "amnesty" in an effort to weaken labor unions (who were not friendly to the Republican party).

The workers are being exploited
Wages are being stagnated
Profits are being taken in but no savings are passed on

I say all this to say, ANY illegal immigration reform that does not include a targeted emphasis on the corporations and companies providing the jobs and exploiting both workers, labor, and consumers - will be ineffective. You don't put out fire by pouring water on the smoke.

[Gee-Are]

Ok, Damie, but none of the proposals on the table today mention corporate reform in this area. I agree with what you're saying in earnest, but with what's being offered, what is the right answer?

It's interesting...I saw this interview last week and these 2 farmers in Florida were discussing how closely they were watching the Republican candidates, because they want to understand how the republicans would handle the issue. I say how closely is anyone watching them. They made NO apologies about employing illegal immigrants or the fact that they paid low wages. How can this fly and not be questioned? The reporter didn't seem to take issue with it, and no one in the agriculture industry that I know of has gone to jail for it. Let one of them become a political candidate and it blows up in their face though.

In SOME industries I think that the American people don't care about the employment. How many people are running to go pick oranges or strawberries? Yet, there are plenty who are willing to clean and babysit and other domestic employment. Where I think most people's concerns lie, myself included, is the security of possessions and way of life, and the double standard that would exist if there is amnesty.

This is a whole 'nother debate and thought, but sometimes I think that black people missed an opportunity and should have taken a good portion of Booker T. Washington's philosophies and run with them.

[Fraternal Design]

ghost said:

Actually, I don't think she realistically believes that reparations should be made, however, if amnesty is on the table and does happen...Why couldn't reparations?

@ FD - Do you feel that immigrants that have already made it here should be allowed to stay in the country while they become citizens? Is your concern about the tax amnesty the issue of enforcement?

I know you're being rhetorical when you say "Why couldn't reparations" so I won't try to give an answer, especially since it wouldn't be to your exact question, lol. Don't you hate when people answer their own questions instead of yours?

Anyway, yes, immigrants should be allowed to stay until they become citizens. And yes, my issue with tax amnesty is enforcement. There would be no way to tell how long someone has REALLY been here.

[DamieQue™]

Hijacking thread:

@fratd: what about the people who are and still are awaiting legal entry into the United States? If we do enact amnesty again - how is that fair to the people who have been trying to enter legally? What incentive is there for them to do it the legal way if we (for all intents and purposes) reward those who bucked the system?

Are we not now the second largest minority in the U.S. in part due to this mass immigration?

And I think I kind of agree with Ghost's friend. If we can enfranchise illegal aliens, there's no good reason that I can think of right now that we should continue to disenfranchise those who have served their time. Amnesty is amnesty. If we're aren't going to do it across the board, we ought not to do it all.

[Gee-Are]

I also feel that if we grant the ability for people to occupy while gaining citizenship, and we still haven't secured the border...It would only ENCOURAGE more people to usurp the legal methods in place to get into the country. You think we have a lot of undocumented workers and people living here now...wait till the world south of us hears that the people who sneaked in earlier got forgiven.

We can say the entire world, but it costs money to cross the waters. There's also only a few places they can enter, and those ports of entry are more easily controlled.

[Fraternal Design]

damieque said:

Hijacking thread:

@fratd: what about the people who are and still are awaiting legal entry into the United States? If we do enact amnesty again - how is that fair to the people who have been trying to enter legally? What incentive is there for them to do it the legal way if we (for all intents and purposes) reward those who bucked the system?

I don't know.

[DamieQue™]

^^^^More honest than most politicians