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Post by Cambist on Dec 28, 2010 11:29:38 GMT -5
www.thegrio.com/specials/the-ygb/mario-perez-in-defense-of-the-dream-act.php#This is the story of Brother Mario Perez...he is facing deportation and is the perfect example of why the DREAM Act is good legislation. For those of you with ADD, i'll summarize... Mario Perez, Junior math major at Stephen F Austin University in Texas. Born in Mexico but brought to the United States when he was five years old. The semester before graduation he is pulled over on a traffic stop and eventually detained by ICE and transported to Houston for processing. He faces a deportation hearing in March. Thoughts....
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Post by Search1906 on Dec 28, 2010 23:24:32 GMT -5
I think the failure to pass this act is yet another example of short-sighted governing. Here you have a young man who was brought to the country as a 5 year old. Played by the rules as he knew them citizen or no citizen and he could be deported on some BS. I think we will miss the contributions he and others like him could make to our society and economy. Its obvious he isn't hell bent on milking the system and collecting benefits so what is the motivation to deport him. I hope common sense reigns. www.thegrio.com/specials/the-ygb/mario-perez-in-defense-of-the-dream-act.php#This is the story of Brother Mario Perez...he is facing deportation and is the perfect example of why the DREAM Act is good legislation. For those of you with ADD, i'll summarize... Mario Perez, Junior math major at Stephen F Austin University in Texas. Born in Mexico but brought to the United States when he was five years old. The semester before graduation he is pulled over on a traffic stop and eventually detained by ICE and transported to Houston for processing. He faces a deportation hearing in March. Thoughts.... |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Jan 21, 2011 14:36:35 GMT -5
I think he shouldn't have been driving without a license and should have applied for citizenship when he became an adult. I think for every success story like his, there are PLENTY of other people here illegally who take advantage of our services and rather than pumping money into our economy, send the money back to their relatives outside the states
#closetrepublicanmoment
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Post by Rare_Commodity on Jan 21, 2011 15:40:54 GMT -5
^^ Exactly. We are a free country. So many people want to come over here and reap the benfits of being a free US Citizen but you don't want to pay like you weigh or pay taxes or do all the things that us citizen born here have to do. They try to make all these accommodations for refugees and illegal aliens (which of whom can get government assist although they are illegal WTF) but what accomodations to US Citizens get...NOTHING.
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BLAC-A-MUS PRYME
OOA Interest
Grow in the knowledge of self[C01:0000FF]
Posts: 33
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Post by BLAC-A-MUS PRYME on Jan 22, 2011 12:25:50 GMT -5
IMO > instead of thinking that he could bypass the system, Mario should have applied for citizenship. But in his thinking, he probably already known that he was a citizen. But when applying for college, one would think that they would check all that, especially if one applies for FEDERAL loans!
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Post by Cambist on Jan 26, 2011 13:57:37 GMT -5
I think he shouldn't have been driving without a license and should have applied for citizenship when he became an adult. I think for every success story like his, there are PLENTY of other people here illegally who take advantage of our services and rather than pumping money into our economy, send the money back to their relatives outside the states #closetrepublicanmoment Applying for citizenship is another issue. That has to be done from your home country. You can't apply for citizenship without going back to your home country. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jan 26, 2011 14:19:40 GMT -5
I think for every success story like his, there are PLENTY of other people here illegally who take advantage of our services and rather than pumping money into our economy, send the money back to their relatives outside the states why do you believe this? |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Jan 26, 2011 18:57:52 GMT -5
The folks I know, the legal ones, are ALL sending money back to relatives in Latin America and the Islands. Don't have any illegal friends that I know of but I think Western Union would agree with me.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Jan 26, 2011 19:05:42 GMT -5
I think he shouldn't have been driving without a license and should have applied for citizenship when he became an adult. I think for every success story like his, there are PLENTY of other people here illegally who take advantage of our services and rather than pumping money into our economy, send the money back to their relatives outside the states #closetrepublicanmoment Applying for citizenship is another issue. That has to be done from your home country. You can't apply for citizenship without going back to your home country. So is your argument that the fact that he's illegal both in terms of residency and driving without a license should be ignored? Ish like this is part of the reason uninisured motorist coverage in states like Texas is no frigging high. |
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Post by Cambist on Jan 28, 2011 12:24:01 GMT -5
No, I do not advocate illegal activity at all. He should pay his penalty for his driving offense.
My argument is that we should make an allowance for those citizens that have been here, educated here, and never been anywhere else. If we are going to continue to pussyfoot around immigration laws, ignoring those bothersome rules that limit corporate profits then we should not kick out college students who have been raised here.
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Post by denounced on Feb 5, 2011 15:06:55 GMT -5
No, I do not advocate illegal activity at all. He should pay his penalty for his driving offense. My argument is that we should make an allowance for those citizens that have been here, educated here, and never been anywhere else. If we are going to continue to pussyfoot around immigration laws, ignoring those bothersome rules that limit corporate profits then we should not kick out college students who have been raised here. I agree, we need to be settled on what we are going to do. I may not agree with how it would be done, but some clarity and fairness would be the right thing. If you want to kick this dude out, make sure you establish ways to catch them before enrollment. If not, let them finish, give them citizenship. I do not agree with that, but at least there would be some consistency. What did China do to keep its enemies out? |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Feb 5, 2011 19:23:10 GMT -5
@ the bolded - if they were to become legal citizens, they'll still be pumping money into our economy, even if they are sending some back to their relatives. They need a roof over their heads, so they'll be paying rent or a mortgage. They need to eat, so they'll be spending money at grocery stores and/or restaurants. They need to get around, so more than likely they'll either be spending money on a car (complete with gas, maintenance, etc) or some other type of personal vehicle, or they'll pay for public transit. If they have a legit job (which they can because they'll be citizens), they'll be paying income tax (not to mention sale tax on all that food they'll be eating and if they own a home, property tax)...and therefore be contributing to all those services that if they were still illegal, they would be using for free. Issues with illegal aliens benefiting from our system without paying into it are VERY relevant...but you can't logically transfer your issues with that to an argument about granting citizenship to those who didn't even have a choice in coming here...they're not one and the same. I think he shouldn't have been driving without a license and should have applied for citizenship when he became an adult. I think for every success story like his, there are PLENTY of other people here illegally who take advantage of our services and rather than pumping money into our economy, send the money back to their relatives outside the states #closetrepublicanmoment |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 7, 2011 8:17:51 GMT -5
Quiet, I agree with your points about what citizens contribute to the economy. Clearly more citizens equals more revenue but that does not negate the fact that there are immigration processes and these people are operating outside of that.
As for choice, that's basically a sins of the father argument and y'all are arguing that the child should be granted special dispensation because of their parent's illegal act. That's an argument with which I simply do not agree. it's no different for me than any other type of illgotten gain.
Back to Cam's original post, we shouldn't make it so attractive and easy for undocumented people to enroll in school, receive health care, etc. For this gentlemen to make it all the way through to college before the issue of his status came up is ridiculous. Take away the incentive to move here illegally and you'll address a large part of the problem. Once people are here and have built a life , it's a much more complicated issue.
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Post by Cambist on Feb 7, 2011 10:31:48 GMT -5
I agree 100% with your response to my post, 91. We have to make it less attractive for people to want to come here but that is the problem. They are attracted by the jobs and the business sector has made it clear that they intend to keep up the practice of artifically lowering overhead and increasing margins by hiring illegal workers.
The employers claim that without these low wage workers the cost of goods and services would rise significantly and that would be bad for the economy? Really? I'm trying to figure out how.
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Post by LejaOMG on Feb 7, 2011 10:45:11 GMT -5
the incentive...to move here illegally is NOT simply the possibility of your children receiving citizenship after college. It is US foreign policy itself that makes conditions abroad so unliveable that foreigners are willing to risk life and limb to travel here in the first place. (read that last sentence again, if necessary) Illegal immigration is the side-effect to a domestically created issue. By "addressing a large part of the problem," the US would have to be willing to seriously scale-back its hegemony in this hemisphere. As that would mean a loss of money and power, the US will do no such thing. Hence, the US should gear up for a steady influx of immigrants from each of the countries within its sphere of neo-imperial influence.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 7, 2011 11:14:22 GMT -5
*googled hegemony. admits it freely*
I recognize that you're well versed in this area so I'm not going to pick a fight with you but your argument is sounding like the government has made conditions so deplorable in the inner cities that people have no choice but to steal to survive.
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Post by Cambist on Feb 7, 2011 11:24:06 GMT -5
I agree with the Law-yah.
Globalization and global market success is based on a balance being struck. Sans subsidized products, the market will dictate the right manufacturing market and price. Unfortunately, there is no way we can compete with many nations like Vietnam, Mexico, China, or India in cost of labor so we will lose. To keep us from losing we subsidize the shit outta crops making it impossible for small markets and countries to get ahead.
Short version (for Leja)-
In order for globalization to work, rich countries must accept a decline in quality of living and lifestyle so that other countries can rise in quality of lifestyle. America ain't gonna do that.
On another note:
An interesting fact is that immigrants may be good for our economy right now. According to economic development experts, immigrants tend to move into those areas abandoned by lower income Americans. Many of those areas, like Southwest Little Rock, get new life as immigrants start businesses, fix up old houses, infuse schools with new children, creating a reliable tax base.
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Post by LejaOMG on Feb 7, 2011 11:50:36 GMT -5
*googled hegemony. admits it freely* I recognize that you're well versed in this area so I'm not going to pick a fight with you but your argument is sounding like the government has made conditions so deplorable in the inner cities that people have no choice but to steal to survive. The arguments are similar. That was intentional. For that reason, I argue that the solutions be somewhat similar. In the same way the government cannot promote (or seem to provide an incentive to) unlawful behavior and then simply ignore the behavior when it occurs, it cannot do so with the illegal immigration "problem." The way that the US intentionally (and often maliciously) underdevelops countries in the global south in a way that essentially promotes illegal flight would suggest...at least to me...that the system should acknowledge that illegals will be coming. I'm not commenting on whether they should get a pass or whether their children should automatically receive green cards, but simply that the mere presence of illegals in the US follows quite naturally from the US' own actions. That being the case, the infrastructure design neeeds to reflect some acknowledgement of that reality. I'm no longer impressed by the "where on earth did all these illegals come from?! Our economy isn't prepared to deal with them. They're ruining our country!" argument. |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Feb 7, 2011 11:55:06 GMT -5
I'm actually not arguing one way or another about who should be granted what...just pointing out that trying to take the problems that come with illegal immigrants, and project them onto those wanting to become legal citizens is like comparing apples with oranges. I am definitely not versed enough in immigration to have a legitimate opinion one way or another about the DREAM Act...and in particular, how it compares to the standard immigration process. Quiet, I agree with your points about what citizens contribute to the economy. Clearly more citizens equals more revenue but that does not negate the fact that there are immigration processes and these people are operating outside of that. As for choice, that's basically a sins of the father argument and y'all are arguing that the child should be granted special dispensation because of their parent's illegal act. That's an argument with which I simply do not agree. it's no different for me than any other type of illgotten gain. Back to Cam's original post, we shouldn't make it so attractive and easy for undocumented people to enroll in school, receive health care, etc. For this gentlemen to make it all the way through to college before the issue of his status came up is ridiculous. Take away the incentive to move here illegally and you'll address a large part of the problem. Once people are here and have built a life , it's a much more complicated issue. |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 7, 2011 12:12:33 GMT -5
OK, we're aligned if y'all aren't fighting for special privileges, just stating the situation that led to it.
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Post by Cambist on Feb 7, 2011 12:22:03 GMT -5
Let me say though that if we are going to allow illegal immigration to occur, we have an OBLIGATION to our citizens educate and medicate them.
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 7, 2011 12:30:42 GMT -5
disagree. but then i also disagree with how a criminal in prison can get a free degree when a hard working but poor student with no record cannot.
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Post by Cambist on Feb 7, 2011 12:39:06 GMT -5
disagree. but then i also disagree with how a criminal in prison can get a free degree when a hard working but poor student with no record cannot. I understand your point although I agree with the way many states make the decision on education benefits to prisoners now. Under 25 years of age, less than 5 year sentense, focus on post secondary, vocational education (something they can use). As far as education and health, these kids are paying taxes and existing in LARGE NUMBERS. So if we want to kick them out...we could. The problem is...we don't. So if they are going to be in this country, living in large groups, I want them and their children vaccinated for small pox, and other communicable diseases. I don't want to walk into Wal-Mart or any other public place and have some worker or customer spreading some disease. That's the reality of it. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Feb 7, 2011 13:28:55 GMT -5
OK, we're aligned if y'all aren't fighting for special privileges, just stating the situation that led to it. I haven't stated as much in this thread, but I wholeheartedly supported the DREAM Act and shed tears when I first read it. Just FYI. |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 8, 2011 11:54:50 GMT -5
I'm not commenting on whether they should get a pass or whether their children should automatically receive green cards, but simply that the mere presence of illegals in the US follows quite naturally from the US' own actions. You're not stating that you're not advocating in this thread? really? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Feb 8, 2011 12:22:58 GMT -5
That's what I'm stating. Did you want to point to an example of my advocacy?
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Post by T-Rex91 on Feb 8, 2011 13:20:28 GMT -5
nope, my comment said you WEREN'T advocating and you took exception. If you wanna lobby, kewl.
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Post by Rare_Commodity on Feb 8, 2011 13:31:09 GMT -5
After all has been said I do not agree with the DREAM Act. I feel that America should first do more to assist U.S. Citizens before focusing on immigrants trying to gain citizenship. JMO.
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Post by LejaOMG on Feb 8, 2011 13:33:58 GMT -5
nope, my comment said you WEREN'T advocating and you took exception. If you wanna lobby, kewl. o, I thought you had spotted an inconsistency in my position or something... |
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Post by QUIET As Kept on Feb 8, 2011 13:36:36 GMT -5
Your earlier statement was also along the lines of there being a need to assist (presumably natural-born) US citizens...out of curiosity, what kind of assistance do you think is needed that isn't already provided? After all has been said I do not agree with the DREAM Act. I feel that America should first do more to assist U.S. Citizens before focusing on immigrants trying to gain citizenship. JMO. |
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