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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 11:06:56 GMT -5
would they have been perfect (as he was)? Why or why not?
what say you?
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Post by Chal™ on Oct 12, 2010 11:46:11 GMT -5
hmmm. good question. my first reaction is to say no, because although their father was (is) perfect, their mother wasn't. She was born in sin just like the rest of us. But then again, no, wait. Let me go think about it.
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 11:49:01 GMT -5
To answer your question I would have to say, no. See Chal's answer.
On another note, our lives would have been much easier had Jesus married and had children.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 13:47:53 GMT -5
Jesus himself was perfect, yet his mother was born in sin. How is this possible?
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Post by Chal™ on Oct 12, 2010 13:58:16 GMT -5
That's different, though. Jesus was sent here for a purpose. And His "conception" was pretty much not normal. gosh, i'm getting frustrated because I can't seem to find a way to say what I want to say.  *stomps out* *slams door* |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 14:07:05 GMT -5
If Jesus, in his physical, human form laid down with a woman and conceived a child, then that child could still be perfect. What are the limits on perfections?
Since I'm not totally sold on the whole immaculate conception deal, all of that doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that if Jesus had a family it would be easier for Christians (both single and married) to determine what is right for married couples without having to rely on a single guy of questionable morals, questionable motive, and questionable sexual orientation to lay it out for us.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 14:21:22 GMT -5
For this discussion, perfect = capable of living forever in human form, not afflicted by such effects of sin such as sickness, having complete intelligence, yet having human emotions (joy, sadness) and needs (food, rest)
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 14:21:56 GMT -5
If Jesus, in his physical, human form laid down with a woman and conceived a child, then that child could still be perfect. how's that? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 14:22:31 GMT -5
if Jesus had a family it would be easier for Christians (both single and married) to determine what is right for married couples without having to rely on a single guy of questionable morals, questionable motive, and questionable sexual orientation to lay it out for us. we're getting there. Don't rush the brush, fam.  |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 14:29:10 GMT -5
if Jesus had a family it would be easier for Christians (both single and married) to determine what is right for married couples without having to rely on a single guy of questionable morals, questionable motive, and questionable sexual orientation to lay it out for us. we're getting there. Don't rush the brush, fam. I sorry...my bad...and any other apologetic phrase I can offer.... |
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Post by Chal™ on Oct 12, 2010 14:30:29 GMT -5
For this discussion, perfect = capable of living forever in human form, not afflicted by such effects of sin such as sickness, having complete intelligence, yet having human emotions (joy, sadness) and needs (food, rest) ok, by this definition, I stick with my original answer. No. Perfect though he may be, the mother is still human and born into a world of sin. |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 14:32:04 GMT -5
If Jesus, in his physical, human form laid down with a woman and conceived a child, then that child could still be perfect. how's that? Same reason Jesus, growing (growing =dying) up was still able to remain perfect. It's not a case of "would" they have been perfect. That we can never know. The question is "COULD" they have been perfect. The answer is absolutely yes. To say otherwise is to question God's omnipotence. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 14:32:27 GMT -5
For this discussion, perfect = capable of living forever in human form, not afflicted by such effects of sin such as sickness, having complete intelligence, yet having human emotions (joy, sadness) and needs (food, rest) ok, by this definition, I stick with my original answer. No. Perfect though he may be, the mother is still human and born into a world of sin. ...and therefore? Can you try to finish your thought so I understand what you're saying? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 14:34:30 GMT -5
Same reason Jesus, growing (growing =dying) up was still able to remain perfect. It's not a case of "would" they have been perfect. That we can never know. The question is "COULD" they have been perfect. The answer is absolutely yes. To say otherwise is to question God's omnipotence. By that reasoning, we can suppose that your own children could have been perfect. And apparently, it is possible to lose your perfection (as did Adam and Eve...according to the story) I'm asking a less metaphysical question though. In sum, how could a perfect man and an imperfect woman biologically create a child not enslaved to sin? *note* Answers such as: "Because! He's...God! He can do anything! Even make a round square!" will not do, lol |
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Post by Chal™ on Oct 12, 2010 14:49:53 GMT -5
ok, by this definition, I stick with my original answer. No. Perfect though he may be, the mother is still human and born into a world of sin. ...and therefore? Can you try to finish your thought so I understand what you're saying? The paternal perfection would be marred by the maternal imperfection, thus rendering His children imperfect. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 15:09:31 GMT -5
Romans 5:12, a familiar scripture says "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin..."
Adam and Eve both sinned. Eve sinned first. But God did not pronounce mankind damned until after Adam sinned. Why do you think that is? Is it possible that sin (or perfection) is inherited paternally?
Also ask yourself, was Mary merely a vessel for God's seed or was she also biologically related to Jesus? Did Jesus have DNA from an imperfect woman (miraculous though his conception may have been)?
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 15:40:25 GMT -5
Was he perfect or was he perfected through his death? Personally, id feel better to know that he wasn't perfect while on earth. Actually, I don't think Jesus was actually perfect since 1) he died, 2) he had and expressed feelings which means he had desire which means he was subject to temptation, and 3) he was born of a woman...
"By man came also the resurrection of the dead..." So was it necessary for Jesus to be perfect on earth or was it more necessary for our Jesus to have been perfected through his death and resurrection?
Would his children be perfect? Maybe, maybe not. Could they? Of course but why? It wouldn't make any sense.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 12, 2010 15:57:57 GMT -5
Was he perfect or was he perfected through his death? Personally, id feel better to know that he wasn't perfect while on earth. Actually, I don't think Jesus was actually perfect since 1) he died, 2) he had and expressed feelings which means he had desire which means he was subject to temptation, and 3) he was born of a woman... "By man came also the resurrection of the dead..." So was it necessary for Jesus to be perfect on earth or was it more necessary for our Jesus to have been perfected through his death and resurrection? Would his children be perfect? Maybe, maybe not. Could they? Of course but why? It wouldn't make any sense. According to the bible's definition of perfection (which I attempted paraphrased above and for which I have cites if you want 'em), being perfect doesn't mean being superhuman (not amenable to emotions, and physical weaknesses and limitations); it means that you are not born with the inclination to commit sin and that death is not a natural part of your life course (as it is for us). Not sure if that affects your comments at all, just wanted to clarify the operational definitions I'm working with here. Also, it was quite necessary for Jesus to be perfect before he died (Hebrews 7:28, 1 Peter 2:22). Had he been just a regular dude while he walked the earth, his life would not have been an equal exchange for the one Adam squandered. |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 12, 2010 18:48:47 GMT -5
To be endowed with emotions and to be subject to physical weakness and limitations is to be imperfect. I understand your scriptural citings of Heb and 1 Peter but are they saying that Jesus, in his flesh, was perfect or was he sent in the flesh to be corruptable so that he might be that sacrifice? Did he committ no sin or was he incapable of sin?
Also, he was manifest in the physical form for the express purpose of dying. So that would disqualify him from being perfect (in the physical).
You may be absolutely correct but I like to dig into this a little deeper.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 13, 2010 8:48:04 GMT -5
I'm down to dig a little deeper. I think your major premise is that if a person is truly "perfect" then they should be incapable of committing sin (i.e. making an unrighteous decision). As you see it, wouldn't such a limitation actually be indicative of imperfection? To answer your question, Jesus was not incapable of sin. But through his faith and dedication, he affirmatively chose not to take up a sinful course (which he well could have, he just resisted temptation and chose not to). I also think that you're using "corrupt[ible]" interchangeably with "physical." Cool. The bible also does that, I just wanted to clarify that for other readers.
You also appear to be saying that a perfect person should be unable to die under any circumstances. If I'm correct on that, I'd just submit that though both Adam and Jesus died, death was not a necessary consequence for either of them. Adam could have remained faithful and he would have lived forever. Jesus could have chosen not to surrender his soul, and also not died. None of us presently have that option.
As for your comment "to be endowed with emotions...is to be imperfect"--I absolutely understand your point. Only, the Bible doesn't agree with your operational definition of perfection. Anything that is fully able to accomplish the purpose for which it was designed is "perfect" in God's eyes. To illustrate, a broom has a purpose and a design. If it does what it is supposed to do, then it's a perfect broom. Even a perfectly perfect broom isn't as good as a vacuum. That doesn't diminish the value of the broom; we shouldn't expect it to perform beyond the scope of its design. In like manner, God created humans to a certain design (to include eating food, taking rest, having emotions, making decisions according to free will, etc). The first man was not as good as God or an angel, no. But he was fully able to carry out all the functions for which he had been programmed, and had he done so according to the promise, would never have died. For this reason, God considered him to be perfect. In like manner, Jesus' emotions and "weaknesses" doesn't mean he was imperfect. It means that while he was a human, he was limited to functioning within the scope of human design. He did so perfectly.
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Post by Cambist on Oct 13, 2010 9:04:40 GMT -5
Jesus himself was perfect, yet his mother was born in sin. How is this possible? So according to your last post, if Mary did what she was supposed to do and served her purpose, how did her being born in sin make her imperfect? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 13, 2010 9:22:47 GMT -5
because the sin made her literally unable to "do what she was supposed to do and serve her purpose." Yes, she gave birth to Jesus, for which she blessed immensely; but she wasn't perfect. Death was a natural and inevitable end for her.
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Post by Cambist on Oct 13, 2010 9:25:13 GMT -5
For this discussion, perfect = capable of living forever in human form, not afflicted by such effects of sin such as sickness, having complete intelligence, yet having human emotions (joy, sadness) and needs (food, rest) I was using this definition you posted as the basis for my post. So, according to the definition posted in your last post, even Judas was perfect since he played his role the way he was supposed to, right? (I'm not baiting since I actually believe this and agree with you that perfection is a degree of purpose) With this in mind, if Jesus had children then they would also be perfect to the degree and to the extent that they chose to avoid sin. According to the story, God didn't have physical intercourse with Mary so there was no biological reason she should be pregnant. Also, since it take two sets of genes to make a human, where did the other part of Jesus genes come from? Is there a God Gene? Side Note: Since I was a youngster, I always thought that God simply ordained the impregnation of Mary by Joseph. I've never bought into the whole virgin birth. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 13, 2010 9:37:04 GMT -5
I see where you're going, but you're conflating two ideas: will and purpose. The scripture doesn't support the idea that a person is perfect in so much as they carry out one or more aspects of God's will. Perfection is about being able to completely function within the scope of human design.
There is an overarching purpose for mankind which none of us (who were born into sin) are able to attain. Anyone who is not able to avoid sin and who must eventually die (including Mary and Judas and each of us) cannot be "perfect" in a Godly sense.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 13, 2010 9:43:25 GMT -5
Because of this... Side Note: Since I was a youngster, I always thought that God simply ordained the impregnation of Mary by Joseph. I've never bought into the whole virgin birth. I'm going to decline to answer this... is that ok? |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 13, 2010 11:04:10 GMT -5
It's ok. I wasn't really looking for an answer to an unanwerable question. LOL!!
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Post by Cambist on Oct 13, 2010 11:12:03 GMT -5
I see where you're going, but you're conflating two ideas: will and purpose. The scripture doesn't support the idea that a person is perfect in so much as they carry out one or more aspects of God's will. Perfection is about being able to completely function within the scope of human design. There is an overarching purpose for mankind which none of us (who were born into sin) are able to attain. Anyone who is not able to avoid sin and who must eventually die (including Mary and Judas and each of us) cannot be "perfect" in a Godly sense. Gotcha. So without information as to whether or not there is a God gene that makes one unwilling to sin and unable to die, or if the children would have a singular purpose we cannot determine whether or not Jesus' kids would have been perfect. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 13, 2010 12:35:31 GMT -5
I see where you're going, but you're conflating two ideas: will and purpose. The scripture doesn't support the idea that a person is perfect in so much as they carry out one or more aspects of God's will. Perfection is about being able to completely function within the scope of human design. There is an overarching purpose for mankind which none of us (who were born into sin) are able to attain. Anyone who is not able to avoid sin and who must eventually die (including Mary and Judas and each of us) cannot be "perfect" in a Godly sense. Gotcha. So without information as to whether or not there is a God gene that makes one unwilling to sin and unable to die, or if the children would have a singular purpose we cannot determine whether or not Jesus' kids would have been perfect. is that your final answer? |
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Post by Cambist on Oct 13, 2010 13:41:17 GMT -5
Yep, i'm going to have to go with that.
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Post by Kryptik on Oct 14, 2010 1:27:33 GMT -5
Darn computer shut down before I finished! So to make what was a long story short... (Besides, reading this is almost thought for thought a conversation I had the other night! lol) Job 1:1 reads, “There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.” This would give some reason to believe that "perfection" is achievable by any, and not just limited to Adam and Jesus. If we take perfect to mean "complete" or "fulfilling one's purpose", then anything or person that is changing, aging, learning, etc. cannot be considered perfect. Luke 13:32 "And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." I too believe that the state of being human, is imperfection realized. Jesus aged and developed both physically and spiritually during his time here. This transition implied that though he may have been capable of perfection, he was not. Therefore, I say that his kids could only at best be "capable" of perfection. |
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