Rules Governing a Pastor....

[Cambist]

1. I was told a true story of a pastor who was made to leave the pulpit of his church because his wife passed and that meant he was no longer married. Why would people interpret 1 Timothy to mean that a pastor has to be married?

2. Can a woman pastor a congregation?

3. According to the bible, what is the woman's role in the church? Family?

[LejaOMG]

1. That, along with the policies that require pastors to be unmarried are condemned in the bible. In black and white. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 describes such practices as being "the doctrine of demons." As for 1 Timothy 3:1, which states that an overseer should be "the husband of one wife" speaks specifically to the Christian congregations who were in danger of allowing bigamy to creep into the church. That scripture is noting that if an overseer should choose to be married, he may have no more than 1 wife. I don't see how any other interpretation is possible, given that Paul himself (the author of this letter) was unmarried and defended his own right to oversee often.

[LejaOMG]

2. Can she? Probably. Would such a thing please God is the question. Paul himself said "all things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous." A woman (or man's) physical ability to do something is not the same as whether one is suited for the task. I for one, (bismillah) am fairly skilled at preaching and teaching, but as a woman, I don't understand shepherding a congregation to be a part of my Christian role. This is in part due to...

3. I believe strongly in the headship principle described in 1 Corinthians 11, which states, among other things that Man is a representation of God, but Woman is a representation of Man. This is not to say that women cannot be Godly. But it appears from Paul's instructions that the inspired record intends for men to take on the responsibility of caring for the flock and for women to support them in that endeavor. Paul said of this matter "judge for yourselves." So the way I see it, if a willing and qualified man is available, he should pastor the church. If there is none, and a woman finds herself tasked with the responsibility the same letter gives very detailed instructions for how she should go about it (and they are modified, taking into account her female constitution). It can be likened to a woman being a single head-of-household. Surely she is quite capable of doing so, but it should not be a first resort.

[Chal™]

@ Leja EXALT!!

[peppermint]

* walks in and sees that Leja has shut down the thread*

[Chal™]

pretty much

[uncleruckus06]

So someone explain 1 Peter 3:7. I raised several questions concerning this passage and did not get a response from anyone except for CAM.

How would you explain dwell with them according to knowledge?

What would the word honor mean when it says honor unto the wife?

It the scripture describes the woman as the weaker vessel, does it mean that the man is the weak vessel? If it does not, what makes the woman weaker and who is she being compared to?

How does not doing this cause your prays to be hindered?


Thanks!!

[LejaOMG]

U raised those questions here? Had I seen them, I would def have answered. I'll see what I can do when next I'm on solid ground

[peppermint]

Uncleruckus, according to your post history, you have not previously posted such questions. Let's please be honest in the religion section if no where else.

Please and Thank You

[Cambist]

Ruckus is a coon!

@ Ruckus- you posted those question offline not on the board. That's causing some confusion.

[Chal™]

Aug 12, 2010 21:06:08 GMT -5 peppermint said:

Uncleruckus, according to your post history, you have not previously posted such questions. Let's please be honest in the religion section if no where else.

Please and Thank You

I.ALMOSR.FELL.OUT.OF.MY.CHAIR.LAUGHING.AT.THIS.

[LejaOMG]

How would you explain dwell with them according to knowledge?

Let’s go back a chapter. 1 Peter 2 discusses various prescriptions for interpersonal relations in general. For example, it condemns all “badness and deceitfulness and envies…backbiting” and extols “fine conduct, faith in the goodness of other people, controlling the flesh” etc. The chapter ends with a reminder of Christ’s example, especially noting that he neither threatened nor reviled others (despite his sufferings). So this knowledge is what wives and husbands are reminded of when 1 Peter 3 says “in like manner…according to knowledge.”

What would the word honor mean when it says honor unto the wife?
+
It the scripture describes the woman as the weaker vessel, does it mean that the man is the weak vessel? If it does not, what makes the woman weaker and who is she being compared to?

It means that a husband and wife are both vessels (for God’s spirit and for other things) but that the woman, by her nature is the more fragile of the two (comparison is indeed between the man and the woman). So the honor that is assigned to her is relative to that. Think of a delicate ceramic carafe and a sturdy cast iron teapot. They both have their value, but obviously the delicate one requires more ginger handling, etc. You assign “honor” to it by recognizing that its makeup is different, perhaps by placing it on a higher, safer shelf, washing it with special detergent and so on. Honoring one’s wife is the same principle. He understands her unique needs and strives to provide for them. Honor goes further than simply acknowledging biological disparities. Ephesians 5:27-29 says that a man is to be “loving his wife as his own body…feeding and cherishing [her]” and he should by the example of the Christ, sanctify her and make her holy (the letter also provides specific instructions on what this means and how to accomplish it)

How does not doing this cause your prayers to be hindered?
This right here is so serious. I appreciate that God has explained it plain and simple. He is unequivocally saying, “I require that you honor your wife. If you do not, I don’t want to hear anything you have to say.” A man who takes on the responsibility of having a wife is accountable to God for her as well. If a man is failing to honor his wife, or worse yet, affirmatively DIS-honoring her (cheating, abuse, etc.) the Holy Spirit is not flowing freely upon him and his relationship with God is in jeopardy. When the family head is in a disfavored position with God, the entire family suffers. What is more, in addition to his own spiritual suffering, God has promised to judge him for jeopardizing his family in this way (1 Timothy 5:8).

[LejaOMG]

this scripture was also discussed here previously: onolympus.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gend&action=display&thread=5586&page=3

[denounced]

Aug 10, 2010 13:58:21 GMT -5 Cambist said:

1. I was told a true story of a pastor who was made to leave the pulpit of his church because his wife passed and that meant he was no longer married. Why would people interpret 1 Timothy to mean that a pastor has to be married?

2. Can a woman pastor a congregation?

3. According to the bible, what is the woman's role in the church? Family?

I have a question for #1. Why is it so hard to just except scripture for what it says, whenever the context gives us no further reason to add or takeaway? Titus 1 also gives the qualifications as well. It doesn't say much different.

Titus 1:5-9
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

I timothy 3:1-13
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2.) Can or should? Can, yes. Should, no. Women are not short on the ability to teach, as evidenced in their roles to their children and other women. Who taught Timothy? His Mawmaw and Mama. Pastor Grace is in authority over her husband at church, but at home he is in authority. Makes no sense, hence I Timothy 2.

3.) I believe their roles are laid out in Timothy and Ephesians 5 as well.

[Chal™]

so.....nevermind

[denounced]

The reason why I highlighted verse 11, because it gives credence to currently or in the state of being married.

As for the state of having children, the bible is clear that children are not a forever possession of the parent. A man leaves his mother and father and clings to his wife. There is also no help meet component with children as well. Once a man has proven that he can keep his children straight, he's good. But being married and single is a whole different ball game. If a Bishop's wife dies, it's time to let it go, and allow another qualified individual step in.

[peppermint]

^^^ Really? So if the spouse dies, the pastor should step down?

I've honestly never seen or heard this argument before.

[denounced]

That's probably because it is something that has become status quo. The Bible states that he must be a husband. How can he be that when his spouse is dead? The law of marriage is broken when a spouse dies.

We have come to a point where if it works it must be okay.
Well that's not true. It's called post-modernism, and it has crept its way into the church.

For just as many single men, married or single women who are bishops that do a great job, there are just as many that do not. But the fact still remains that they should not occupy headship over a body of believers.

[uncleruckus06]

@ Peppermint. Let me rephrase my post. Cam and I are good friends. On another chat group I raised that question and Cam was the only one who responded. That is why I stated that Cam is the only one who responded. I could have been more descriptive on my post, by hey, it is what it is. Sorry for the confusion.

@ Cam- I am gonna tell my kids you called me a coon.

@ Denounced. Let me ask this question. Is Paul out of order for giving instruction to the church in his letters to Timothy and Titus? Since he is not married or have children. When it comes to women, why is Paul's writing drastically different in his letters to Corinth, Timothy, and Titus when you compare them to his writing in Galatians and Romans. How do you explain his comparisons to woman like Phoebe and Junia???

To you other point on what the bible states the pastor should be. If this be the case, then every pastor who has children who are unruly should be remove from the pulpit according to Titus 1: 6.

Should we start removing Bishops money in the offering plate (since that money is filthy lucre) who accept drug dealers.

If so then we need to make sure our approach is consistent in all things not just one that benefits one section of people.

[LejaOMG]

oh...so I ain't even answer your question, negus? Aight, then. :muttering:

**newbies come around just to fleece us for info and cain't even ack grateful.**

[Cambist]

@ Ruckus - That's allright...I'll just bribe them with Fruit Snacks!

@ Leja - he did just ignore you....like you that chick to put on "Ignore", right?

[denounced]

"@ Denounced. Let me ask this question. Is Paul out of order for giving instruction to the church in his letters to Timothy and Titus? Since he is not married or have children. When it comes to women, why is Paul's writing drastically different in his letters to Corinth, Timothy, and Titus when you compare them to his writing in Galatians and Romans. How do you explain his comparisons to woman like Phoebe and Junia???

To you other point on what the bible states the pastor should be. If this be the case, then every pastor who has children who are unruly should be remove from the pulpit according to Titus 1: 6.

Should we start removing Bishops money in the offering plate (since that money is filthy lucre) who accept drug dealers. uncleruckus06

If so then we need to make sure our approach is consistent in all things not just one that benefits one section of people.


Filthy lucre is not what you are making it to be. It has to do with the attitude toward money.

There are no contradictions in what Paul says in I Cor 7 and the requirements for a Bishop. Bottom line, if you definitely do not want to be a bishop, don't get married. That's a choice, just as it is a choice to become a Bishop. Unruly kids does mean that he should step down. Where does it say that Junia and Phoebe were Apostles or heads of churches?

Uncle- There are many men who should be removed effective immediately from the position. Unfortunately, most people in the congregation do not know the scriptures and will put up with all kinds of mess from their leaders.

[Cambist]

Come on Fred, I was actually looking for an answer from you on Uncle's question. You didn't answer it.

[uncleruckus06]

@ Denounce- I don’t think that you understand my comments. Let me rephrase my questions/ask new ones, because I know that I am not clearest person.

Do you see Paul qualified to dictate to married people the role of married leaders? If so, please explain why you feel that a single man could comment on the leadership role especially one that he is not qualified for?

Unruly kids: Are you saying that if a man does have unruly children, that could be overlooked but a single man or a female are not qualified to be a pastor or bishop. Please explain what you think Paul meant when he was writing that?

Filthy Lucre is dirty money! How do you define filthy lucre as an attitude towards money??? Please explain.

Junia is mention in Roman 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I never said that Phoebe was an apostle. Phoebe has been described by Paul as a church servant, (which is coincidentally the purist definition of the word deacon). Furthermore Paul had instructed the people to assist her in whatever business she needed done. Please refer to Roman 16:1-3. That being said why did Paul instruct the people to assist Phoebe instead of telling Phoebe she has no room to address men?

In regards to your point “Uncle- There are many men who should be removed effective immediately from the position. Unfortunately, most people in the congregation do not know the scriptures and will put up with all kinds of mess from their leaders.” Let me ask you this question. Based on the qualifications given in Titus 1:5-9 and 1 Timothy 3:1-13, (which you pointed out), is that a reason why people should be remove from their position? If yes, please explain if no, please explain.

Cam, we should invite everyone over for BBQ.

[Cambist]

I just might...the Warden will be working this weekend so I might need to put some wings on the grill.

[peppermint]

Denounced- I'm trying to understand where you are getting the definition of flithy lucre.

[denounced]

Uncle said
Let me ask this question. Is Paul out of order for giving instruction to the church in his letters to Timothy and Titus? Since he is not married or have children.

Min. H
No, he is an Apostle, and also writing under direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



Uncle Said
When it comes to women, why is Paul's writing drastically different in his letters to Corinth, Timothy, and Titus when you compare them to his writing in Galatians and Romans. How do you explain his comparisons to woman like Phoebe and Junia???

Min. H
Please quote all scriptures in their proper context, I know of no drastic differences.


Uncle said
Unruly kids: Are you saying that if a man does have unruly children, that could be overlooked but a single man or a female are not qualified to be a pastor or bishop. Please explain what you think Paul meant when he was writing that?


Min. H
You have to go back to I Timothy 2 as for Paul's reasoning for headship. The qualifications rule out women, single men, and Married men with unruly kids. The scriptures are clear. He meant what he said.

Uncle said
Filthy Lucre is dirty money! How do you define filthy lucre as an attitude towards money??? Please explain.

Min. H
I looked up the original language.


Uncle said
Junia is mention in Roman 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


Min. H
Be with or among someone does not make you an apostle.


Uncle said
I never said that Phoebe was an apostle. Phoebe has been described by Paul as a church servant, (which is coincidentally the purist definition of the word deacon). Furthermore Paul had instructed the people to assist her in whatever business she needed done. Please refer to Roman 16:1-3. That being said why did Paul instruct the people to assist Phoebe instead of telling Phoebe she has no room to address men?


Min. H
You are assuming that she was addressing men in a teaching capacity.


Uncle said
In regards to your point “Uncle- There are many men who should be removed effective immediately from the position. Unfortunately, most people in the congregation do not know the scriptures and will put up with all kinds of mess from their leaders.”

Let me ask you this question. Based on the qualifications given in Titus 1:5-9 and 1 Timothy 3:1-13, (which you pointed out), is that a reason why people should be remove from their position? If yes, please explain if no, please explain.

Min. H
Whatever scripture deems as reason to remove one from office is the only explanation needed.

[denounced]

Just imagine how many false teachings, rumors, cliches, ignorance, etc. have gone around because people did not take the time to see what filthy lucre actually means. Remember that money in and of itself is not dirty. What makes it dirty is one's desire, affection, love, greed, etc. for it.

[Cambist]

Aug 21, 2010 12:36:23 GMT -5 denounced said:

Just imagine how many false teachings, rumors, cliches, ignorance, etc. have gone around because people did not take the time to see what filthy lucre actually means. Remember that money in and of itself is not dirty. What makes it dirty is one's desire, affection, love, greed, etc. for it.

Interesting point and I will refrain from hijacking or reinvigorating my thread on "Prosperity Preaching".

[denounced]

Aug 24, 2010 6:49:34 GMT -5 Cambist said:

Aug 21, 2010 12:36:23 GMT -5 denounced said:

Just imagine how many false teachings, rumors, cliches, ignorance, etc. have gone around because people did not take the time to see what filthy lucre actually means. Remember that money in and of itself is not dirty. What makes it dirty is one's desire, affection, love, greed, etc. for it.

Interesting point and I will refrain from hijacking or reinvigorating my thread on "Prosperity Preaching".

I believe you are joking, but no Cam, do not refrain!!!!!!!!! This is exactly what the scripture is talking about. Greedy for money is what these preachers are, and uh oh I gotta rhyme.....

they honestly know that very few
if any of those they preach to
are going to get a breaktrough
but they'll keep speakin' that voodoo
until atleast on of you
gets rich makin' him look like a guru
claimin' the Holy Ghost did it for you
But had his deacon backstage stirring that witch's brew.

I have no problem when the Mand of Gawd is legit and rich, but he must never ever overlook the needs of he people.

Cam, these days, the lay person, which I consider myself to be, always know the needs of the people better than the Pastor. It makes me sick. Don't get me started.