INCEPTION - the movie

[peppermint]

Headed out the door to see it now, actually

[DamieQue™]

Aug 7, 2010 9:16:32 GMT -5 Gee-Are said:

****SPOILER ALERT****


Okay spoiler questions...


If Cobb went under before Saito did, why did Saito age so much more than Cobb by the time he'd found him? Shouldn't Cobb have been the older one?

No. Saito died first (i.e. entered limbo first). He would have been subject to the accelerated experience of time for many years before Cobb got there.

How long had it been since the death, because the kids NEVER aged? I assumed at least a year or few had passed, but I acknwoledge that may not be right.

They don't actually say. They leave that up in the air. It could have been a few months (in which case his memory of his kids probably wouldn't be much different than what they looked like when he saw them). If it has been years then yes - there's a logic problem. But I think they leave that open.

How were they able to control Fischer's subconscious projection of Browning in the 1st level? Remember he came through the hotel door then Eames came in after him...

On the first level, it isn't a subconscious projection of Browning - it's one of the team members impersonating him. The next level down (in the hotel), they don't have to control the Browning projection, they have already planted the idea in Fischer's mind that Browning is a problem, and Fischer's mind accepts the idea and runs with it.

Cobb or Mal, who was right? Damie, I understand your arguments as to why you believe Cobb was right, but there's also a case to be made for Mal and a few holes in your reasoning.

First, I'll state a scenario where Mal could be right. Cobb is laying on the floor at home, or in a hospital in a coma.

You say there was no outside stimuli in the "Cobb reality." Well neither was there in the "Fischer militarized 1st level." They were on a plane, yet there was no movement in accordance with a plane banking or turbulence. Also, the deeper into the levels you got, the less you were affected by the gravity changes.

Actually Ghost I named a couple of things that were established (by the movie) that happen in the dream. Sounds, gravity, random occurences, and impossible architecture. In Fischer's 1st level, Cobb himself projects a train barrelling down the middle of the street. Random Occurence. Also notice that Fischer's dream is filled with rain because the Chemist had too much to drink before he went under.

That song, it was always the same, never different music, even before the "Inception" project started. I would like to go back and see if the music played at regular intervals throughout the movie. That would tell me that it was a trigger that Mal or someone from "reality" was playing to attempt to wake up Cobb.

I think you'll find that the music was always preceded by a team member being shown playing the music on head sets of the dream owner. If it were true that Mal/Mol was trying to wake Cobb up - then you would exepct him to hear that music in the reality where he thought he was awake - because THAT is what she would be trying to wake him up from. Not stuff that he knew was just a dream, but the stuff that he thought was real. And there is no music like that ever...

Regarding Mal's non-appearance in Cobb's "reality." She also didn't reappear in the various levels after death. Think about it. He killed her in the snow zone, but she didn't rise back up like Jesus. He also was obviously in the limbo a long time if Saito had aged that much, but after he killed her there, she didn't show back up to try to persuade him again.

The point Ghost is that she DOES appear. She appears in shared dreams and she appears in Cobb's dreams. She appears anywhere that his subconscious will project - because that's what she is a projection - and that's why her message is inconsistent. She is literally a manifestation of feelings/ideas that Cobb is wrestling with. She manifests his guilt, she manifests his desire to be with her, she manifests his idea that reality might not be real. A Mal/Mol who was alive and well would want only one thing - for Cobb to wake up. And to accomplish this all she would have to do is reappear in the one place that he knows her to be dead. That would convince him that he is dreaming. But she never does it... because she is dead and he is awake.

All of that to say, if he registered on a certain level that she had died, she didn't return. Same in his "reality."

You have established the principle by which he should realize a dream state from an awake state. If he can see Mol/Mal and interact with her in anyway (including killing her) - then he knows he is dreaming. Because he knows she is already dead. That is his reality. To shatter that reality and affirm that he is asleep he need only see her alive...

...and it doesn't happen.

[Gee-Are]

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

No. Saito died first (i.e. entered limbo first). He would have been subject to the accelerated experience of time for many years before Cobb got there.

No, remember before they went under, they were debating if they should take Saito with them. Cobb says, "He won't make it will he?" and the other dude said, "Naw..." (okay that might not be the other dude's quote, but you get my meaning).

In fact, after Cobb and Juno went under, Saito threw the grenade down the shaft to kill the soldiers.

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

They don't actually say. They leave that up in the air. It could have been a few months (in which case his memory of his kids probably wouldn't be much different than what they looked like when he saw them). If it has been years then yes - there's a logic problem. But I think they leave that open.

They do leave it open, but there's reasonable circumstantial evidence to determine that enough time had passed for the children at that age to have grown more than they did. (at least one year)

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

On the first level, it isn't a subconscious projection of Browning - it's one of the team members impersonating him. The next level down (in the hotel), they don't have to control the Browning projection, they have already planted the idea in Fischer's mind that Browning is a problem, and Fischer's mind accepts the idea and runs with it.

No, when Browning first fell through the hotel room door, the chameleon guy was standing behind him. He had followed him from the lobby earlier.

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Actually Ghost I named a couple of things that were established (by the movie) that happen in the dream. Sounds, gravity, random occurences, and impossible architecture. In Fischer's 1st level, Cobb himself projects a train barrelling down the middle of the street. Random Occurence. Also notice that Fischer's dream is filled with rain because the Chemist had too much to drink before he went under.

I get that, but none of that happened in the snow level or it affected the snow level much less than the "first" level.

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

I think you'll find that the music was always preceded by a team member being shown playing the music on head sets of the dream owner. If it were true that Mal/Mol was trying to wake Cobb up - then you would exepct him to hear that music in the reality where he thought he was awake - because THAT is what she would be trying to wake him up from. Not stuff that he knew was just a dream, but the stuff that he thought was real. And there is no music like that ever...

Unless him seeing a team member play the music is his "projection." The music does play in the first level, but it is diegetic. The true source could still be external.

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

The point Ghost is that she DOES appear. She appears in shared dreams and she appears in Cobb's dreams. She appears anywhere that his subconscious will project - because that's what she is a projection - and that's why her message is inconsistent. She is literally a manifestation of feelings/ideas that Cobb is wrestling with. She manifests his guilt, she manifests his desire to be with her, she manifests his idea that reality might not be real. A Mal/Mol who was alive and well would want only one thing - for Cobb to wake up. And to accomplish this all she would have to do is reappear in the one place that he knows her to be dead. That would convince him that he is dreaming. But she never does it... because she is dead and he is awake.

I believe you're right regarding the projections in the "dream levels" but in the "reality," she might just understand the dangers of returning. If she got lost once, it might be tougher to leave the next time so she's hoping Cobb will take the leap.

[DamieQue™]

Aug 10, 2010 10:43:40 GMT -5 Gee-Are said:

Aug 9, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

No, remember before they went under, they were debating if they should take Saito with them. Cobb says, "He won't make it will he?" and the other dude said, "Naw..." (okay that might not be the other dude's quote, but you get my meaning).

In fact, after Cobb and Juno went under, Saito threw the grenade down the shaft to kill the soldiers.

Hmmmm... I'm not sure about this one. I agree with your sequence of events (they did go down another layer before Saito died - in fact when they're in that new layer - where Mal has Fischer - Cobb remarks, that by this point Saito has died and so he had to go get him.) Juno leaves the dream via her own kick (jumping out the window) but how does Cobb get to Saito is the question. If that last layer down was limbo (unconstructed space) it makes sense that Fischer should end up there. He died in the layer above. It stands to reason that Saito should be in limbo too (he died on every level above). I don't know Ghost you may have a point here. If they all went to the same Limbo, Fischer got there before anyone he should be older than anyone and he's not.

I think the Chemist Yusuf owned the first dream layer
Arthur owned the second layer
Eames owned the third layer
and the 4th layer was limbo

The only way this works is if somehow there is something special about Saito dying on all levels of the dream at the same time. No one else did. But this one is a bit murky.

No, when Browning first fell through the hotel room door, the chameleon guy was standing behind him. He had followed him from the lobby earlier.

Yeah that was Fischer's projection that had already accepted the programming/suggestions made by Cobb's team in the 1st layer of the dream. They don't control that Browning projection - he is just proof that their programming took hold in the previous layer

I get that, but none of that happened in the snow level or it affected the snow level much less than the "first" level.

They still heard music on the snow level though, it's how they knew the kick was coming.

Unless him seeing a team member play the music is his "projection." The music does play in the first level, but it is diegetic. The true source could still be external.

I'm not sure what scene you're talking about, but the warning music (as best I can tell) only plays in the dreams.

I believe you're right regarding the projections in the "dream levels" but in the "reality," she might just understand the dangers of returning. If she got lost once, it might be tougher to leave the next time so she's hoping Cobb will take the leap.

What would be the danger or returning? If she got out by jumping out of the hotel window she could simply do it again.

One thing I don't understand is how did Cobb get Saito out of Limbo? Yes he goes back for him, but does he actually kill Saito and himself? How did he and Mal get out of limbo the first time? They laid down on the railroad tracks and committed suicide. But where they under heavy sedatives then also? I don't know

[InMyWorld]

Okay i saw this movie and while i admit it was very good, i'm not the person to watch all these thinking movies and what not. I like chick flicks, sometimes a good action movie but not thinking movies. I wanted to go see The Other guys but was outvoted and we ended up seeing Inception. Damie, you basically answered alot of unanswered questions i had but i think i have more. I'll be back to ask them.

[InMyWorld]

1. So Mol is stuck in limbo and wants Cobb to join her. So that last level Cobb and 'Juno' went to where she tried to kill Mol was limbo?

2. And if you can kill yourself in limbo and come back, why didnt Saito do it himself?

3. I think i missed the part about Saito and Fischer. Why did Saito want the combination?

I know these are the simple questions but my mind frame going into this movie was that i was gon have to think. And i think i'm making the simplest things more complex lol

[DamieQue™]

Aug 10, 2010 12:53:20 GMT -5 InMyWorld said:

1. So Mol is stuck in limbo and wants Cobb to join her. So that last level Cobb and 'Juno' went to where she tried to kill Mol was limbo?

There aren't any definitive answers here (the movie alludes 2 possibilities). The Mol in limbo is a projection of Cobb's mind. It's his subconscious projecting his memory of her. The last scene where Mol had Fischer hostage at the top of the high rise, our consensus belief is that was limbo.

2. And if you can kill yourself in limbo and come back, why didnt Saito do it himself?

When Saito awakens in limbo - he is not aware he is dreaming or in limbo. He thinks that that is reality. He doesn't know that he needs to kill himself to release himself.

3. I think i missed the part about Saito and Fischer. Why did Saito want the combination?

I don't remember Saito specifically wanting the combination. Saito wanted "inception" - he wanted to plant the idea in Fischer's mind to break up his conglomerate. The combination isn't actually important, it just represents the key to getting into the vault where the idea of "being his on man" is stored.

I know these are the simple questions but my mind frame going into this movie was that i was gon have to think. And i think i'm making the simplest things more complex lol

Naw it's a complex movie, that's why there's lot's of opinions about it. Ghost... can you take a shot at answering her questions too?

[Gee-Are]

Aug 10, 2010 13:12:33 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Aug 10, 2010 12:53:20 GMT -5 InMyWorld said:

1. So Mol is stuck in limbo and wants Cobb to join her. So that last level Cobb and 'Juno' went to where she tried to kill Mol was limbo?

There aren't any definitive answers here (the movie alludes 2 possibilities). The Mol in limbo is a projection of Cobb's mind. It's his subconscious projecting his memory of her. The last scene where Mol had Fischer hostage at the top of the high rise, our consensus belief is that was limbo.



When Saito awakens in limbo - he is not aware he is dreaming or in limbo. He thinks that that is reality. He doesn't know that he needs to kill himself to release himself.



I don't remember Saito specifically wanting the combination. Saito wanted "inception" - he wanted to plant the idea in Fischer's mind to break up his conglomerate. The combination isn't actually important, it just represents the key to getting into the vault where the idea of "being his on man" is stored.

I know these are the simple questions but my mind frame going into this movie was that i was gon have to think. And i think i'm making the simplest things more complex lol

Naw it's a complex movie, that's why there's lot's of opinions about it. Ghost... can you take a shot at answering her questions too?

I think you did a good job there on most of the questions Damie.

To answer the Saito question. Saito saw Cobb's totem, the top, and saw that it never stopped, so he then had the revelation that he was in a dream and took the gun they found on Cobb and I assume they both shot themselves in the head. What I don't know is if that got them out of limbo to the 3rd level or all the way to the plane. Otherwise, they had to kill themselves 4 times...Excessive.

How do you wake up from that NOT thinking you need to kill yourself?


Saito wanted Fischer to break up the companies, because if he didn't, Saito's energy company would basically not be able to compete. That's some hardcore sabotage if you ask me. If that's what you have to deal with at that level, that's a trip. Training your mind to have a militarized subconscious to ward off dream cat burglars?

But I digress... Yes, the combination was basically a false number that they had Fischer make up on the fly to access his deep subconscious. Even though it seemed Fischer made that number up on a whim, I guess the number could have actually meant something to him, since they were already in a dream. It's just not revealed.

[Gee-Are]

Aug 10, 2010 11:31:05 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

They still heard music on the snow level though, it's how they knew the kick was coming.

That's another question I have. How did everyone hear the music, when they put headphones on one person?

What would be the danger or returning? If she got out by jumping out of the hotel window she could simply do it again.

Do you not agree that would be a dangerous existence, one where you're always having to kill yourself? But I guess she could take not as big a dose of sedative and just fall over to wake up.

One thing I don't understand is how did Cobb get Saito out of Limbo? Yes he goes back for him, but does he actually kill Saito and himself? How did he and Mal get out of limbo the first time? They laid down on the railroad tracks and committed suicide. But where they under heavy sedatives then also? I don't know

They must have been sedated, even though there was little chance of them to fall because they were laying on the floor, the way I understand it is to go into deeper levels you have to sedate yourself. And they went at least 2 levels, right? in order to live for over 50 years there. Again I ask, do you sleep?

[nsync]

(these questions are open to anyone who can answer)




I think there are some flaws in the Limbo idea. I guess I would need to watch a second time to come up with a full set of loopholes.

However, I thought limbo is where they went when they died in the dream world.

So how did Cobb and Mal get there initially and at the same time? Maybe the movie explained this.

Also, I thought limbo was a state where they got stuck because they didn't realize that they were sleeping. They had no control over waking up there.

So how was Cobb able to know that he was in limbo in order to plant the idea in Mal's head to wake up to the "real world"?

With that same thought in mind how the heck were Ariadne and Cobb able to go into Limbo without killing themselves?

( I thought they were in a fourth level of dreaming where Cobb had to face Mal NOT limbo) I thought Eames revived Fisher so that he would come out of limbo.

Anyhow, in that fourth level Mal stabs Cobb or he's shot or something where he dies there...because he refuses to come back to the previous level with Ariadne before he died there.

Once he finally dies THEN he is in limbo. That's how he washed up on the shore. That's how Saito's guards capture him.

This is why I still conclude the entire movie was a dream. True Limbo was death and there was no coming back from that---no one to wake you up. Cobb was never in limbo. He was just dreaming.

Aug 10, 2010 13:12:33 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Aug 10, 2010 12:53:20 GMT -5 InMyWorld said:

1. So Mol is stuck in limbo and wants Cobb to join her. So that last level Cobb and 'Juno' went to where she tried to kill Mol was limbo?

There aren't any definitive answers here (the movie alludes 2 possibilities). The Mol in limbo is a projection of Cobb's mind. It's his subconscious projecting his memory of her. The last scene where Mol had Fischer hostage at the top of the high rise, our consensus belief is that was limbo.



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[DamieQue™]

I've read some other interesting theories on the internet on the aging paradox of Saito and Cobb. Here's the theory - Fischer doesn't actually die. Mal is a projection of Cobb. Her constant acts of sabotage are symbollic of his guilt of having planted the idea in her mind that eventually killed her. In essence he is beating himself up.

On the 3rd Level (The Snow Fortress) Cobb's projection (Mal) attempts to sabotage his efforts by preventing Fischer from getting into the vault (i.e. she shoots him). But Fischer doesn't actually die. His representation on this 3rd level is unconscious, but what appears to be Fischer being shot is Cobb's projection of Mal kidnapping Fischer and taking him to a 4th layer that was once HIS LIMBO.

If this theory is plausible this point is probably important because it explains the age difference. Saito didn't go a level down he went into his OWN limbo. Cobb could access it because they were all linked together, but it required him to descend from that layer with Mal down even further.

Recall that to get to this 4th layer Juno and Cobb go through one of the dream machines - they do not kill themselves to get there. Dying under heavy sedation is what puts you in limbo, and dying in limbo gets you out of it. But the only way to go up specific layers of a multi-layered dream is to "kick". That's why Juno times her jump from the tower in the 4th layer to coincide with Snow Fortress destruction in the 3rd layer, and the elevator explosion on the 2nd layer.

It's a good theory I suppose but it doesn't really explain how Cobb's subconscious is able to snatch Fischer and take him to another layer without a dream machine. I guess technically the dream machines are purely symbollic so maybe the bullet the Mal fired substituted as the gateway to the 4th level. But if that's the case, shouldn't the bullet that killed Saito be purely symbollic also?

Maybe it has to do with the intent of the projections. Mal only wanted to take Fischer Hostage as a ruse to bring Cobb down to the 4th layer to convince him to stay. She could care less about Fischer. Fischer's projections however intended to cause harm to all foreign partiticipants in his dream.

Honestly I'm not sure if any of this holds up - I'm still looking for better explanations.

[InMyWorld]

Okay Damie i like how you explain it. Im a little less confused now.

So next question for everyone, If you can kill yourself in the dream and wake up how did Saito end up in Limbo? Remember when they first found out about how Fischer's mind is trained as a defense mechanism and they were all mad at Cobb when Saito got shot? So was he saying that since they were all heavily sedated that if they die, they are going to limbo?

[huey]

[**Dea**]

Sooooooooooooooooo....................about this.....

I saw it a couple days ago and all I could say when I walked out the movie was "ima kick Damie's ass!" But thats what I get for reading this thread before going to see it (minus the spoilers). Yall pumped it up way passed satisfaction to me. I was expecting it to be this amazingly complex theory never done before to where I'd still be thinking about years later...or at least until a sequel came out....NOPE! It was a basic movie for me. Wasn't hard to follow and the ending and that shitty ass totem was the only exciting thing in the whole damn thing.

Glad I saw it but it wasn't all that. I give a thumb up and a half.

[All Pledging Is Legal]

Is this movie like "Fight Klub" or "12 Monkeys"? Those movies were much too difficult to follow.

[huey]

Aug 15, 2010 3:58:09 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Sooooooooooooooooo....................about this.....

I saw it a couple days ago and all I could say when I walked out the movie was "ima kick Damie's ass!" But thats what I get for reading this thread before going to see it (minus the spoilers). Yall pumped it up way passed satisfaction to me. I was expecting it to be this amazingly complex theory never done before to where I'd still be thinking about years later...or at least until a sequel came out....NOPE! It was a basic movie for me. Wasn't hard to follow and the ending and that shitty ass totem was the only exciting thing in the whole damn thing.

Glad I saw it but it wasn't all that. I give a thumb up and a half.

LMAOOOOOO

Same thing i thought, people was hyping the hell outta this movie, about how deep and complex it was, i saw it and it felt basic too me. So basic i thought maybe i was missing something. That's why i posted here to see if i didnt catch something

LOL.

FAIL. No Matrix.

[DamieQue™]

Aug 11, 2010 14:36:28 GMT -5 huey said:

LOL - uh negative. He wanted to return to his life in America AND see his kids. Simply flying his kids over isn't the solution because for one, outside the U.S. he is constantly on the run (taking high risk jobs from companies where failure apparently means death or a life on the lam). Yeah - let's bring the kids into that... I'm sure they need some of that in their life... and it certainly won't complicate things. LOL.

[DamieQue™]

Aug 15, 2010 3:58:09 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Sooooooooooooooooo....................about this.....

I saw it a couple days ago and all I could say when I walked out the movie was "ima kick Damie's ass!" But thats what I get for reading this thread before going to see it (minus the spoilers). Yall pumped it up way passed satisfaction to me. I was expecting it to be this amazingly complex theory never done before to where I'd still be thinking about years later...or at least until a sequel came out....NOPE! It was a basic movie for me. Wasn't hard to follow and the ending and that shitty ass totem was the only exciting thing in the whole damn thing.

Glad I saw it but it wasn't all that. I give a thumb up and a half.

Niccuhs I swear. You want complexity? Answer the main question Dea. Was he asleep or awake?

[Bunny Hop]

I friggin loved it! I made me think and pay attention. DiCaprio's character got on my nerves, lol. Ellen Page did a great job, I look forward to seeing more movies with her.

[**Dea**]

Aug 16, 2010 14:16:26 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Aug 15, 2010 3:58:09 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Sooooooooooooooooo....................about this.....

I saw it a couple days ago and all I could say when I walked out the movie was "ima kick Damie's ass!" But thats what I get for reading this thread before going to see it (minus the spoilers). Yall pumped it up way passed satisfaction to me. I was expecting it to be this amazingly complex theory never done before to where I'd still be thinking about years later...or at least until a sequel came out....NOPE! It was a basic movie for me. Wasn't hard to follow and the ending and that shitty ass totem was the only exciting thing in the whole damn thing.

Glad I saw it but it wasn't all that. I give a thumb up and a half.

Niccuhs I swear. You want complexity? Answer the main question Dea. Was he asleep or awake?

he was awake...duh

[DamieQue™]

Aug 17, 2010 0:14:12 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Aug 16, 2010 14:16:26 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Niccuhs I swear. You want complexity? Answer the main question Dea. Was he asleep or awake?

he was awake...duh

And how do YOU know?

[nsync]

He was dreaming the entire time. The creator had a press conference releasing this information.



























































































































...in my brain. Accept it folks. Lol


When I left the theatre I thought the topic was rather trite. Perception, reality, absolute truth....all things I've dabbled in enough times not to be overly impressed. However, I was one of the main people on the edge of my seat while wacthing...and debating and looking up deeper concepts later.

I can't wait to get it on DVD so I can watch it over and over and over again.

The Matrix was good in a different way. It showed various levels of genius. Of course it would...it was conceived by a black woman.

[Alc 06]

i really enjoyed this movie. I thought it would be one of those movies that was overhyped *cough* Tropic Thunder *cough*, but it turned out to be a good movie, and it definitely didn't feel like 2.5 hours either.

It was different that any movie I've watched in a while, in a good way.

[nsync]

Yeah I agree. Tropic Thunder was horrendous.

[nsync]

Did I log out yet. Hahahhaha I didn't. I hate when I walk away then remember something forcing me to log in all over again.

Any how everytime I come to this thread I forget to ask...

What did y'all think about the whole once an ideas gets planted it spreads like a disease. Agree?Disagree? An even deeper meaning? That is the crux of the story thus the title. I have seen folks overlooking in order to solve the mystery at the end.

[sista]

I wanna see it... My brother saw it and raved about it!!!

[**Dea**]

Aug 17, 2010 6:22:19 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Aug 17, 2010 0:14:12 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

he was awake...duh

And how do YOU know?

Simple. In all other dream sequences, whether they were his or someone elses the projection of his children were the exact same. The boy playing with his back turned to Cobb and then the little girl runs up with her back to him as well. It is the exact same in every sequence. The only times you see the children were in dreams (or day dreams) and every single time it was the same projection (as if the scene was cut, copied, and pasted in other scenes). Also, they set up a easy concept to follow throughout the movie that the reason they were projected so often was because he wished he could see their face before he left that last time. He repeatedly said in the movie that he wanted to get back to his children in reality to be with them and look in their smiling faces (which is why even when he spoke about them not regarding that day all you saw was the back of their heads and that exact same scene.). In the final scene, however, in the world preceived to be his reality, the children were positioned differently and you actually saw their faces. As soon as they turned around I was sold.

At this point I knew he was awake. Whether or not the totem fell or not was not really important to me...BUT if it was I'd argue that on no other dreamstate sequences did the totem ever appear to even come close to falling. Once spinned, it maintained a still, upright spin without faulter. In the last scene, which is was draws up the question, i think, it surely looks to be on it's way down. It jumps and shakes as a spinning top would as it comes to the end of it's spin. So if you believe in the physics that is his totem, and the absolute constancy or equilibrium it displayed during dreams versus the last scene I think it's clear he is no longer dreaming.

See...DUH!

[DamieQue™]

Aug 18, 2010 5:47:07 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Aug 17, 2010 6:22:19 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

And how do YOU know?

Simple. In all other dream sequences, whether they were his or someone elses the projection of his children were the exact same. The boy playing with his back turned to Cobb and then the little girl runs up with her back to him as well. It is the exact same in every sequence. The only times you see the children were in dreams (or day dreams) and every single time it was the same projection (as if the scene was cut, copied, and pasted in other scenes). Also, they set up a easy concept to follow throughout the movie that the reason they were projected so often was because he wished he could see their face before he left that last time. He repeatedly said in the movie that he wanted to get back to his children in reality to be with them and look in their smiling faces (which is why even when he spoke about them not regarding that day all you saw was the back of their heads and that exact same scene.). In the final scene, however, in the world preceived to be his reality, the children were positioned differently and you actually saw their faces. As soon as they turned around I was sold.

At this point I knew he was awake. Whether or not the totem fell or not was not really important to me...BUT if it was I'd argue that on no other dreamstate sequences did the totem ever appear to even come close to falling. Once spinned, it maintained a still, upright spin without faulter. In the last scene, which is was draws up the question, i think, it surely looks to be on it's way down. It jumps and shakes as a spinning top would as it comes to the end of it's spin. So if you believe in the physics that is his totem, and the absolute constancy or equilibrium it displayed during dreams versus the last scene I think it's clear he is no longer dreaming.

See...DUH!

The purpose of the totem was to prove to yourself that you weren't in anyone ELSE's dream, not that you weren't in your own dream. That's why no one would let anyone else handle their totem... if only you know the special nature of your totem, you had a defense against being "dream-napped" (i.e. pulled into someone else's dream)

No matter how well they architected the setting they wouldn't know the special nature of your totem and thus not be able to replicate it for the dream they pulled you into. However it would not be a defense against being stuck in your OWN dream.

Now... what else you got?

[**Dea**]

Like I said, I don't really trip off that damn totem mess....it was all about the chiruns

[Alc 06]

Aug 18, 2010 7:09:08 GMT -5 DamieQue™ said:

Aug 18, 2010 5:47:07 GMT -5 **Dea** said:

Simple. In all other dream sequences, whether they were his or someone elses the projection of his children were the exact same. The boy playing with his back turned to Cobb and then the little girl runs up with her back to him as well. It is the exact same in every sequence. The only times you see the children were in dreams (or day dreams) and every single time it was the same projection (as if the scene was cut, copied, and pasted in other scenes). Also, they set up a easy concept to follow throughout the movie that the reason they were projected so often was because he wished he could see their face before he left that last time. He repeatedly said in the movie that he wanted to get back to his children in reality to be with them and look in their smiling faces (which is why even when he spoke about them not regarding that day all you saw was the back of their heads and that exact same scene.). In the final scene, however, in the world preceived to be his reality, the children were positioned differently and you actually saw their faces. As soon as they turned around I was sold.

At this point I knew he was awake. Whether or not the totem fell or not was not really important to me...BUT if it was I'd argue that on no other dreamstate sequences did the totem ever appear to even come close to falling. Once spinned, it maintained a still, upright spin without faulter. In the last scene, which is was draws up the question, i think, it surely looks to be on it's way down. It jumps and shakes as a spinning top would as it comes to the end of it's spin. So if you believe in the physics that is his totem, and the absolute constancy or equilibrium it displayed during dreams versus the last scene I think it's clear he is no longer dreaming.

See...DUH!

The purpose of the totem was to prove to yourself that you weren't in anyone ELSE's dream, not that you weren't in your own dream. That's why no one would let anyone else handle their totem... if only you know the special nature of your totem, you had a defense against being "dream-napped" (i.e. pulled into someone else's dream)

No matter how well they architected the setting they wouldn't know the special nature of your totem and thus not be able to replicate it for the dream they pulled you into. However it would not be a defense against being stuck in your OWN dream.

Now... what else you got?

This is an excellent point about the totem.

Obviously, Nolan accomplished his goal of leaving the viewer wondering, because there are clearly arguments both ways.