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Post by Chal™ on Apr 9, 2010 15:34:19 GMT -5
Suppose a group of students come alond and decide that they aren't interested in the ideals of any of the Divine 9 organizations. Suppose said students decide to form a GLO of their own.
1)What would they have to do to gain/earn the respect shared amongst the D9?
2) Why not respect them for having the courage to do their own thing in the first place?
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Post by Oldskool on Apr 9, 2010 15:47:59 GMT -5
The reason they are forming their own org is because they don't care about the D9. They don't want to be respected by the D9 because the D9 hardly respects itself. I believe we are going to see more and more orgs popping up around the country if the drama in the D9 is not put on a shelf.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 9, 2010 16:03:09 GMT -5
Suppose a group of students come alond and decide that they aren't interested in the ideals of any of the Divine 9 organizations. Suppose said students decide to form a GLO of their own. 1)What would they have to do to gain/earn the respect shared amongst the D9? 2) Why not respect them for having the courage to do their own thing in the first place?
Why would they want our respect? Why should we respect them? In some ways, they'd probably be like a number of WGLOs who we simply do not regard (that is to say we don't respect or disrespect them - they just don't really exist in any tangible way - it would be like Americans paying attention to Finnish people. What for? I mean they do there thing, we do ours, we don't interact - it's all gravy)
Am I misunderstanding you? |
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Post by Oren Ishii on Apr 9, 2010 16:37:45 GMT -5
Let's be real: When it comes to new ventures/organizations, whether or not they admit it, people want to be welcomed by the establishment. Just because you choose to go another way, that doesn't mean that you spit on tradition. It's a question of mutual respect. On a college campus where BGLOs are probably the most prominent & influential game in town for African Americans, a culture of conscious indifference cannot be sustained for any reasonable amount of time. It's not viable. The old guard will see the new one as competition. If there are any similarities at all, however remote, it will be seen as imitation. That's the way it is. (Can you tell I have some experience with this?)  |
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 9, 2010 16:46:57 GMT -5
Why would they want our respect?
Every organization should desire the respect of their peers. But even more, if I am a part of something that I truly believe in and know that it has potential for growth and greatness, yes, I will want the respect of those who have been where I'm trying to go. Recognize that I'm a trailblazer as well.
Why should we respect them?
Why not. They are taking a chance. Going against the norm. That takes courage and dedication. the D9 has YEARS in the game. Trying to do something different, something new takes determination, guts, and perseverance. If they were to stick it out and make it in the long run, why NOT respect them?
Am I misunderstanding you?
I think so. Kinda, but not really.Like, when Iota Phi Theta was formed, how did they gain the respect that led to the Elite 8 becoming the Divine 9? What would they have to do to even be considered to reach those ranks?
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Post by huey on Apr 9, 2010 18:18:00 GMT -5
They don't want our respect but betcha they'll be steppin, strolling and probating though right?
FOOD
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 9, 2010 20:27:04 GMT -5
When or where did I say they didn't want respect? If anything, had you read with comprehension, the only thing you can take from the question is that they do. you know what? Whatever. Besides, these days, no one has to steal it. You mad at the wrong ones.
Not going there with you, though. Back to my original questions.
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Post by huey on Apr 9, 2010 20:31:55 GMT -5
The reason they are forming their own org is because they don't care about the D9. They don't want to be respected by the D9 because the D9 hardly respects itself. I believe we are going to see more and more orgs popping up around the country if the drama in the D9 is not put on a shelf. |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Apr 9, 2010 20:49:59 GMT -5
Suppose a group of students come alond and decide that they aren't interested in the ideals of any of the Divine 9 organizations. Suppose said students decide to form a GLO of their own. 1)What would they have to do to gain/earn the respect shared amongst the D9? 2) Why not respect them for having the courage to do their own thing in the first place? 1) How could you not be interested in the ideals of any of the D9? I mean fa real, they aren't all that different from org to org. They all have the same base. The culture of each group may vary but if you aren't down with our ideals, you're in a very different lane. Who isn't interested in community advancement? Helping others? Personal development? Forming lifelong bonds? 2) I can respect you for doing your own thing. What I don't respect is the mimicry of the wanna be D9 copycats. Get your own swagger and I'll respect that. Don't lift our traditions. Don't bite our colors and calls. Define some unique aspect that differentiates you beyond who your target member may be. |
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 9, 2010 23:22:50 GMT -5
The reason they are forming their own org is because they don't care about the D9. They don't want to be respected by the D9 because the D9 hardly respects itself. I believe we are going to see more and more orgs popping up around the country if the drama in the D9 is not put on a shelf. Those are not my words. That's not what I said at all. and Muse, I just saw your post, so i'll respond now. better et, i will try to clarify. students in college 9 BGLOs 5 fraternities 4 sororities follow me so far? good meet michelle. michelle knows she wants to pledge, but before jumping out there, she studies and does her research. Then decides that something is missing FOR HER in each of the groups. "Hmm," Michell thinks. "What should I do?" Michelle finds out that there are others who feel the same way. One day while sharing thoughts, the idea of a new sorority comes into play. Not to RIVAL anyone, but to offer what they each felt was missing. So let's say said org became established, incorporated, and all that other good stuff. It is officially a BGLO. Meaning YES, they respect and want to become part of the NPHC. The question is: What makes or breaks that decision? COULD THEY gain the respect necessary to become another NPHC org? Or would they be looked down upon for following their hearts and deviating from the norm? |
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Post by peppermint on Apr 10, 2010 0:00:20 GMT -5
^^^ I think it would take a very long time, at least 25-30 years before they would gain enough respect to join the NPHC. You will always have those who will respect them for going against the grain and doing their own thing, but like 91 one suggested, is it really their own thing? What would make them unique other than they are not in the D9? What principle/idea/service are they bringing that isn't covered by another group?
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 10, 2010 0:31:28 GMT -5
i understand that. the time thing i mean. As for principles, it could be this principle isn't covered here, nor that one over there and so on and so on. There for by taking what's missing and putting them together, you have something different. It's not necessarily about going against the grain or doing their own thing. It's about fulfillment. I mean, one could have said the same thing about Iota Phi Theta when they came on the scene many many many years after the "last" NPHC fraternity. Why couldn't this be seen as an effort to do the same?
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Post by huey on Apr 10, 2010 8:36:25 GMT -5
Those are not my words. That's not what I said at all. norm? I never said you said it. My first post was in response to that posting, not any of yours. Sorry for confusion. |
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 10, 2010 10:39:58 GMT -5
*sheepish grin*
sorry, Huey. I've been on the defensive a lot lately. My apologies.
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Post by peppermint on Apr 10, 2010 12:24:26 GMT -5
i understand that. the time thing i mean. As for principles, it could be this principle isn't covered here, nor that one over there and so on and so on. There for by taking what's missing and putting them together, you have something different. It's not necessarily about going against the grain or doing their own thing. It's about fulfillment. I mean, one could have said the same thing about Iota Phi Theta when they came on the scene many many many years after the "last" NPHC fraternity. Why couldn't this be seen as an effort to do the same? The difference with Iota would be that it was founded largely by non-traditional collegiates. Iota wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms by the NPHC. The peril for this new group sounds like it would be considered unoriginal (not saying I agree). If it's going to be a splash of AKA, with dash of DST, pinch of Zeta and shake of SGRho, it's going to be considered a confused copycat. |
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Post by Oren Ishii on Apr 10, 2010 13:17:53 GMT -5
@chal:
I feel where you're coming from. I was part of a group that brought my comm. service Sorority to my campus in UG. My post is directly related to the issue of lack of respect by BGLOs when it comes to other groups.
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 10, 2010 13:39:04 GMT -5
1) LMBO @ a splash, and dash, a pinch, and a shake
2) i totally understand
3) Are BGLOs aware that it is this type of "snobbery" (not my words) that sometimes turn people off.
*DISCLAIMER: Please note that Chal is in no way, shape, form, or fashion attempting to start, begin, found, or join such group and using you guys as informants (so to speak). This is merely an observation on my part of a group that could very well experience this sooner or later. *
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Post by Julie Art on Apr 10, 2010 19:16:56 GMT -5
We are aware Chal, but I think as a whole we don't care because for that one person who is turned off by it, there are 10 trying to get down.
For this group, it won't be easy for them. It just won't be. I noticed you mentioned Iota and let's just be real, they are apart of the NPHC and they are still struggling to get respect in different parts of the country. I never heard of Iota until I went to college and not because it was on my campus, but a friend of mine who went to an HBCU. If I hadn't visited her and saw one and questioned, I still wouldn't have known what Iota was for years more and I was greek at this point.
So, yeah, the new group is going to struggle regardless when it comes to BGLOs and how they will be received.
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Post by Blu on Apr 10, 2010 19:26:18 GMT -5
I remember when I was in undergrad alot of new Chapters for new Fraternities (Social and Service) were being chartered on the campus. The Service Frats never tried to connect with the NPHC Greeks, but the social ones always tried to get respect. They even tried to join the NPHC on campus, but were rejected. I think it takes time for respect to develop. At one point in time, it felt like a new BGLO was popping up everyday. Now I hardly hear anything about them. I think if a group proved that they were serious about committing to their new org, they may eventually gain some respect. It would take alot of time to prove it though.
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Post by Cambist on Apr 12, 2010 8:50:14 GMT -5
They should do their own thing if it's what they want to do.
I am reminded of organizations like KKPsi. At most schools the organization is just a band org who look like a cross between Kappas and Sigmas (im referring to colors and letters)
But on a HBCU campus, the organization (while still keeping true to it's purpose) also adopted a lot of the BGLO traditions. The key is...they have a purpose and that's what sustains them. The other stuff is window dressing.
So if someone asked me for advice my response would be for them to do their own thing. Dedicate themselves to their purpose and missions. Create a reason to exist and the members will come.
If you are looking to create an organization that will compete with D9 orgs then good luck. That ship has sailed so many times....and often shipwrecked. It's a bad motive...
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 12, 2010 9:04:34 GMT -5
All good advice. I will say this, though. I don't believe that they are in this to create some type of competition. I truly believe that they are genuine in their efforts and have the potential to sustain. Hopefully, they won't prove me wrong.
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Post by FatalDST on Apr 12, 2010 9:34:28 GMT -5
So my question is what are they going to do that a prexisting org is not already doing? What's the REAL reason they want to form another group?
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Post by T-Rex91 on Apr 12, 2010 9:39:07 GMT -5
Exactly. And it's not so much whether D9 groups respect you as much as whether we'll extend an invite. I can respect you and not want a D10.
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 12, 2010 9:42:53 GMT -5
honestly, i don't know for 2 reasons. 1) I'm not a member of a D9, so I don't know what you guys do. lol . 2) as stated in my disclaimer, I'm not a part of their efforts either, so I don't know exactly what they do. I am, however, friends with several of the "founding members" and my conversations with them led me to create this thread and ask my questions.
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Post by Cambist on Apr 12, 2010 9:52:19 GMT -5
As i said before....if they have a purpose then stand on that. Especially if it's a specific purpose (as opposed to a broad one like most D9 orgs) Otherwise....they are just re-inventing the wheel.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Apr 12, 2010 10:30:34 GMT -5
Response for Chal (everyone else can ignore Damie's long winded response). Hopefully this gives context to my position.
I'm not even trying to be smart, but I don't think I'm following you at all. I don't see how, by virtue of establishing an org, that effectively makes us peers. I mean maybe it makes us peers in terms of administrative activites (each org has been chartered and incorporated) but from a functioning stand point we are not peers at all. Most of the D9 have hundreds of chapters, 100 of thousands members of all walks of life that has had socio-political impacts for numerous decades. I'm not sure how merely starting an organization makes you peers with that.
Maybe I'll rephrase the question - why should we regard them? All sorts of organizations begin and fail on campsuses, black ones, white ones, asian ones, literary ones, scholarly ones... why pay any more attention to one fledgling org than another? I don't mean this to be belittling at all, but it's really not that hard to start an organization, it certainly doesn't have the degree of difficulty (both by circumstance and time) that would have been experienced when most of our founders did what they did. I can respect someone's right to start a new org, but that doesn't seem like the respect you're asking for. If you want the org to be respected, my question is what have you done to BE respected? Don't expect to be given credit for merely starting. That's the low water mark now.
I'd like to piggy back on something that 91 and Juicy said. First what said Juicy... people bring up the Iotas all the time when they preface starting a new organization, they never seem to bring up how they (Iotas) continue to have to contend with attitudes that they do not belong (even to this day). They are approaching 50 years of existence and they are STILL having to fend off these attitudes. I have heard various accounts of what all had to happen for Iota to join the council - I won't bother with details as they could very well be biased and I have no substantiation for them other than hearsay, but let's just say that it wasn't a smooth transcation and that many who around and "in the know" STILL oppose the decision to allow them in.
Back to what 91 said, "Don't lift our traditions. Don't bite our colors and calls. Define some unique aspect that differentiates you beyond who your target member may be." This rang a bell with me. Consider when most of our orgs were established. There were no other options. You could not BE apart of most of the White Fraternities and sororities. Now, not only are there a very diverse group of major BGLOs, there are also a number of smaller fledgling organizations starting to branch out, AND, you are no longer outright banned from seeking membership in WGLOs. So when someone says, "something was missing" - it sounds like subtrefuge. Out of all these groups - you seriously couldn't find anything at all?
As a Black Greek, when people say that they started/wanted to start an org because they felt something was missing in the ones they researched I hear one of two things:
1. I want to belong to something too, but I hate various members of various orgs that are available on this campus, so I'll just start my own
2. I want what they have, but I don't want to have to go through what they did to get it, so I'll just start my own
The rationale is complete garbage IMO because, speaking only for the Bruhz, you don't know us merely by seeing us or researching us. The "something is missing" argument sounds alot more credible when it comes from someone IN an org that defects to start something new. Now...
If the new org REALLY is about something different, really about something that is not there... then garnering the respect of the D9 or entry to the NPHC should be the least of it's worries. However, if this "new" org is just going to do a Soul Train scramble with principles and mottos, (i.e. substituting excellence for scholarship, or strength for fortitude, or manly deeds, with good acts), and then co-opt the already well established Black Greek Paradigm (i.e. step shows, probates, line jackets, calls, signs, etc.) - then really...
...what is there to respect you for?
Now... all that said, to me no one has the right to tell you that you CAN'T start an org if you just don't like all that's out there. Honestly, if you just want to start an org... start it. But don't start it for acceptance for others. Start it for principles you believe in, and focus on building your own legacy, your own culture around that, and @#$% what anybody else says or thinks about it. You are doing you - who cares if anyone else approves?
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Post by FatalDST on Apr 12, 2010 10:48:44 GMT -5
honestly, i don't know for 2 reasons. 1) I'm not a member of a D9, so I don't know what you guys do. lol . 2) as stated in my disclaimer, I'm not a part of their efforts either, so I don't know exactly what they do. I am, however, friends with several of the "founding members" and my conversations with them led me to create this thread and ask my questions. oh okay.. well pry in their business for me and let us know! LOL |
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Post by FatalDST on Apr 12, 2010 10:49:29 GMT -5
Response for Chal (everyone else can ignore Damie's long winded response). Hopefully this gives context to my position.
I'm not even trying to be smart, but I don't think I'm following you at all. I don't see how, by virtue of establishing an org, that effectively makes us peers. I mean maybe it makes us peers in terms of administrative activites (each org has been chartered and incorporated) but from a functioning stand point we are not peers at all. Most of the D9 have hundreds of chapters, 100 of thousands members of all walks of life that has had socio-political impacts for numerous decades. I'm not sure how merely starting an organization makes you peers with that.
Maybe I'll rephrase the question - why should we regard them? All sorts of organizations begin and fail on campsuses, black ones, white ones, asian ones, literary ones, scholarly ones... why pay any more attention to one fledgling org than another? I don't mean this to be belittling at all, but it's really not that hard to start an organization, it certainly doesn't have the degree of difficulty (both by circumstance and time) that would have been experienced when most of our founders did what they did. I can respect someone's right to start a new org, but that doesn't seem like the respect you're asking for. If you want the org to be respected, my question is what have you done to BE respected? Don't expect to be given credit for merely starting. That's the low water mark now.
I'd like to piggy back on something that 91 and Juicy said. First what said Juicy... people bring up the Iotas all the time when they preface starting a new organization, they never seem to bring up how they (Iotas) continue to have to contend with attitudes that they do not belong (even to this day). They are approaching 50 years of existence and they are STILL having to fend off these attitudes. I have heard various accounts of what all had to happen for Iota to join the council - I won't bother with details as they could very well be biased and I have no substantiation for them other than hearsay, but let's just say that it wasn't a smooth transcation and that many who around and "in the know" STILL oppose the decision to allow them in.
Back to what 91 said, "Don't lift our traditions. Don't bite our colors and calls. Define some unique aspect that differentiates you beyond who your target member may be." This rang a bell with me. Consider when most of our orgs were established. There were no other options. You could not BE apart of most of the White Fraternities and sororities. Now, not only are there a very diverse group of major BGLOs, there are also a number of smaller fledgling organizations starting to branch out, AND, you are no longer outright banned from seeking membership in WGLOs. So when someone says, "something was missing" - it sounds like subtrefuge. Out of all these groups - you seriously couldn't find anything at all?
As a Black Greek, when people say that they started/wanted to start an org because they felt something was missing in the ones they researched I hear one of two things:
1. I want to belong to something too, but I hate various members of various orgs that are available on this campus, so I'll just start my own
2. I want what they have, but I don't want to have to go through what they did to get it, so I'll just start my own
The rationale is complete garbage IMO because, speaking only for the Bruhz, you don't know us merely by seeing us or researching us. The "something is missing" argument sounds alot more credible when it comes from someone IN an org that defects to start something new. Now...
If the new org REALLY is about something different, really about something that is not there... then garnering the respect of the D9 or entry to the NPHC should be the least of it's worries. However, if this "new" org is just going to do a Soul Train scramble with principles and mottos, (i.e. substituting excellence for scholarship, or strength for fortitude, or manly deeds, with good acts), and then co-opt the already well established Black Greek Paradigm (i.e. step shows, probates, line jackets, calls, signs, etc.) - then really...
...what is there to respect you for?
Now... all that said, to me no one has the right to tell you that you CAN'T start an org if you just don't like all that's out there. Honestly, if you just want to start an org... start it. But don't start it for acceptance for others. Start it for principles you believe in, and focus on building your own legacy, your own culture around that, and @#$% what anybody else says or thinks about it. You are doing you - who cares if anyone else approves? Damie, have your forgotten how to do short-hand lately? |
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Post by Chal™ on Apr 12, 2010 11:04:57 GMT -5
gotcha
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Post by Oren Ishii on Apr 12, 2010 13:00:04 GMT -5
These replies are now too long for me to even read @ the office & comment. Thanks Cam, Damie. *ole pontificating azzes* LOL |
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