Let's Talk. Kids educational value...

[Noble Work]

....and the system they are in.

I was sadden to hear that some Alanta Public School teachers cheated on the CRCT test. Which lead me to my thoughts and questions to you all.


Do you think our kids are getting a quality education?

When I was in middle school, high school I didn't have to take a test to be promoted to the next grade then eventually graduating IF I passed the "graduation test". When I was in high school the teacher "Taught" and we as students "learned". You either "get it" or you "don't get it". But Options were available tutoring (by teacher or student), summer school, then sometimes you just need to simply raise your hand and ask questions.

My next concern is the teachers.

OOA Do you think the teachers are actually "teaching"?
Meaning do you think that they spend more time "preparing" students ONLY for a test (CRCT and others) rather than teaching? I heard on the radio someone commented saying that the teacher spends 1/4th of their time teaching students and 3/4th of the time "getting students reading" for that test.

Let me ask. Do high schoolers still do Term Papers, Research Papers, Bibliographies? Do teachers even teach these things? Or do they even have time to teach these things? If they are not teaching these things and the like are students being readily prepared for college? Or are they only being Prepared to take a test just to make it out of high school?

Now do you think it's fair that the teachers have to "plan" to teach this way? I'm sure a lot of our teachers want to "teach" way more than they do especially in "our" communities. Most of us know that there are many strikes against us already at an early age. Teachers, knowing that (I hope) should push harder, encourage/engage our students more.

There was another comment made also saying that Teachers need to be mothers in school as well. Meaning genuinely ask the student, "Is there anything bothering you today"? or "Are you having problems with something that I can help you with"? But REALLY mean it. She went on to say a lot of times it's the teachers attitude and tone that's the problem. And one that makes the teach NOT approachable. A student will not be comfortable with such a teacher.

Ok am I just out of high school a long to that makes me out of touch and tripping?

[Oldskool]

Feb 17, 2010 17:12:16 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

....and the system they are in.

I was sadden to hear that some Alanta Public School teachers cheated on the CRCT test. Which lead me to my thoughts and questions to you all.


I don't doubt it. School districts are evaluated on test scores. Teachers are evaluated on their students' performances. Everyone is under so much pressure to do well on those stupid tests.


Do you think our kids are getting a quality education?

A quality education is there for the taking. Students today think so little of their teachers because parents don't respect teachers. My teachers are still held high esteem. Parents think that teachers have too much time off and of course teachers have no clue as to how to handle the student. Children are manipulative and mostly cause problems which keep many teachers from doing their job.


When I was in middle school, high school I didn't have to take a test to be promoted to the next grade then eventually graduating IF I passed the "graduation test". When I was in high school the teacher "Taught" and we as students "learned". You either "get it" or you "don't get it". But Options were available tutoring (by teacher or student), summer school, then sometimes you just need to simply raise your hand and ask questions.


I, too was raised in this environment. Kids were afraid of ALL teachers. Teachers had a word that could not be challenged. Today, anything that a teacher says is under scrutiny and questioned. Teachers are, in fact, afraid of parents....and some students.

My next concern is the teachers.

OOA Do you think the teachers are actually "teaching"?
Meaning do you think that they spend more time "preparing" students ONLY for a test (CRCT and others) rather than teaching? I heard on the radio someone commented saying that the teacher spends 1/4th of their time teaching students and 3/4th of the time "getting students reading" for that test.

Teachers can't teach because of the many interruptions from obnoxious kids, irate parents, paper work, announcements, useless assemblies, shortened periods and over crowded classrooms.

Let me ask. Do high schoolers still do Term Papers, Research Papers, Bibliographies? Do teachers even teach these things? Or do they even have time to teach these things? If they are not teaching these things and the like are students being readily prepared for college? Or are they only being Prepared to take a test just to make it out of high school?

High schoolers don't take home books, or do homework. Students find so many reasons to not do the work that the expectations and standards are compromised. Remember when you hoped the teacher would grade on the curve so everyone could have a higher score?...Well, everything is graded on the curve. It's all about making the student feel successful. Just like in Tee-ball...no one wins or loses...it's always a tie and you get a snack no matter how bad you played. That's the mentality that is carried throughout the child's education journey.

Now do you think it's fair that the teachers have to "plan" to teach this way? I'm sure a lot of our teachers want to "teach" way more than they do especially in "our" communities. Most of us know that there are many strikes against us already at an early age. Teachers, knowing that (I hope) should push harder, encourage/engage our students more.

Teachers do not like to work under adverse conditions. That is why there is an exodus from the profession. There are hardly any male teachers who are not coaches or band directors. Many of the long timers are finding it harder to work where there is no discipline and they are retiring early. Quality field trips are mostly not available because of the lack of funding.

There was another comment made also saying that Teachers need to be mothers in school as well. Meaning genuinely ask the student, "Is there anything bothering you today"? or "Are you having problems with something that I can help you with"? But REALLY mean it. She went on to say a lot of times it's the teachers attitude and tone that's the problem. And one that makes the teach NOT approachable. A student will not be comfortable with such a teacher.

Teachers, are mothers, hand holders, aunties, guidance counselors, listeners, patient, doctors, etc. Teachers use their own money for many things from buying lunches, to making sure kids have their caps and gowns. Teachers are often impatient because of the constant requirement to repeat themselves. it seems as if no one is listening. Students want what they want when they want it. Sometimes it is an imposition to stop and deal with a situation that could possibly wait. Students cause impatience and irritability in teachers and then run and tell the parents that "teacher yelled at me".

Ok am I just out of high school a long to that makes me out of touch and tripping?

The educational system needs an over hall. It needs to get back to basics, Prayer, Discipline, and funding. Giver the power back to the teachers and let them do the jobs for which they were trained. .

[T-Rex91]

<----Fellow APS grad

Do you think our kids are getting a quality education?

No, because but I question whether we truly did either. I have contemporaries who were passed through because it was easier than fighting the parents to leave them back a year. Sure, the smart kids did well but as a person who went through magent programs with an older brother in the same schools but in the regular curriculum, there were clear differences in the educational experiences.

The advantage we had was that there we had to understand the theory behind things. I could calculate a y intercept on my TI-85 but I also could do it with a pencil and a piece of paper. With the focus on testing, there's no time for the same teaching methods.

We were better rounded. PE was a requirement and band and other extra-curriculars and field trips exposed us to different things and gave us different skills. I think don't think kids get to experience these things the same way now due to funding cuts

I was sadden to hear that some Alanta Public School teachers cheated on the CRCT test.

I too was saddened but wasn't surprised. It should have been expected. Their jobs depend on those scores and no consideration is given to the the kids' starting point or challenges.

Do you think the teachers are actually "teaching"? Meaning do you think that they spend more time "preparing" students ONLY for a test (CRCT and others) rather than teaching?

Yep, I have teacher friends who have told me as much. It's really sad because I had some teachers who really enjoyed teaching and finding creative ways to get the lessons across to us., even with the out of pocket expenses it's always cost them. A lot of the joy of teaching, a really hard job, has been sucked out with the profession.

Let me ask. Do high schoolers still do Term Papers, Research Papers, Bibliographies? Do teachers even teach these things? Or do they even have time to teach these things? If they are not teaching these things and the like are students being readily prepared for college? Or are they only being Prepared to take a test just to make it out of high school?

Good question. I don't know.

Now do you think it's fair that the teachers have to "plan" to teach this way?

Nope, not at all.

There was another comment made also saying that Teachers need to be mothers in school as well.

We ask too much of our teachers. Would a kind word from someone at school make a huge difference in the life of a child, particularly if they aren't getting that support at home? Absolutely. Can a teacher with 200 students a day and a life away from work be expected to fill the gap? No. Some do, but that's just their DNA. I was lucky, I had a few.

The final controversial thing I'll say is that kid's educational quality is irrevocably compromised by the social construct of the current environment. We fought things out, teachers disciplined us when we were out of line. Students won competitions and some lost. Everyone didn't get invited to parties. The school environment more closely mirrored real life. Kids are deprived of that.

[Noble Work]

OS and 91 these were two really great responses.

OS I agree the educational system does need an overhaul. This should be obvious because it has been said many times that Our (American) school system ranks last or just about compared to other Countries. Something is wrong with that.

Let me ask though, What are these tests for? and what does it prepare the student for anyway honestly? I may have asked this earlier and above but, when most of us were in middle/high school your (our) grades (test scores, exams, reports, homework etc...) things like that is what actually promoted you (us) to the next grade level. Was something wrong with that? lol. Do these things weigh heavily anymore?

91 I see the difference in the teacher involvement sort of speak. Years ago my and maybe your teacher (s) engaged you by actually caring. They may have ask "how" you doing. They probably MADE us come by her class at the end of the day for a "one on one" understanding of Algebra. And you bet NOT be acting up in class cause the teacher prolly went school with your moma..lololo and It was nothing to pick up the phone and call her.

Do you remember all through school, you thought "that" teacher was so damn mean? But when you graduated and matured you now tell your friends "that" teacher was your best teacher cause she Made you learn or Pushed you?

Now it's like what you have stated. Teachers are now using there personal money to purchase things in order to "teach". And it may be because of funding. Which is sad and sometimes I think this "system" has forgotten about the kids. Some differences as far as engaging are some teachers simply don't care. And OS you are right, teachers are mothers, aunts etc...and some suffer even more burdens/personal stress as the kids. But what gets me is "I got mine already" mentality. Some teachers don't grasp students like they used to. But being fair some students don't want to BE grasp rather left alone. Today kids have no fear and to me they have too many choices. Not saying kids should be scared of their teachers. But I think there should be some level of respect. Kids nowadays "talk back" to their teachers, fight their teachers. Now the fear should be the teacher calling your parents and later dealing with your parent when you get home. I remember getting letters sent home from the teacher that HAD to be signed by your moms and brought back to her (teacher) the next day. Just having a letter was torture.

I know I have rambled a bit. Sorry.

[Oldskool]

Levelone, there was a kid in one of my classes who was having trouble remembering his manners. I called his mom and she said, 'Oh, I thought this was an emergency". I said, "if a teacher had called me about my child I would think it was an emergency." She said that she didn't like the way I talked to her and asked me for my principal's number. I gave her the number and hung up. We never dealt with the problem. Now when her son comes back to class the only thing on his mind is that "my mom told the principal on you". There goes my power. Parents don't want teachers to help them raise their children like when we were kids. Everything is a fight. No one respects teachers. Underpaid and overworked....no respect.

[Noble Work]

OS I couldn't agree with you more.

You said "there goes my power", did the Principal back you? I also heard that there was a lack of Principals backing their teachers these days. You should of gotten your power right back after that parent was done talking to the principal.

I (well not me) also remember getting kicked out of a teacher's class. Is that unheard of these days? Years ago when a student becomes disruptive, combative he/she is removed from that class worst case. But now we have students "telling" on teachers, in return students "becoming" "victims" via sensationalizing the truth and end results teacher having no power/being disrespected. It is a shame that the mother didn't see this situation as an emergency which to me speaks volumes. She already knows her child's "behavior" issues and from here response, it's nothing new to her.

OS or any body did you hear about the "term" A.D.D. or other "medically coined" behavioral patterns? As a child/teen did they put a label on it? Because I swear when I was in school and kids acted this way we just said that they was just damn Bad....lol.
Did medical research not catch it back then? Why the recent label on kids who act out?

[Oldskool]

posted by levelone

What are these tests for? and what does it prepare the student for anyway honestly?

They are supposed to measure what students should know and be able to do in each grade and subject tested. This is why teachers tailor their curriculum to cover the material that's going to be on the test.

You know that proportions will be on the test and time does now allow you to get to chapter 15, you make sure you teach proportions before test time.

The High School Exit is geared to find out what students have retained through our their 12 years and is given in the 10th grade., Students who do not pass have the next year and the next year to pass. They are being prepared for 6 years to be able to exit high school gracefully. Parents fight to have their children exempt from taking the test because they know that their sorry ass kids have been messing up all along.

You are correct, our grades were sufficient, but now things have changed. Parents don't want their children retained so they use the excuse, "the test is biased" and win the case. No one wants to be bothered by a crazy loud, obnoxious parent who thinks that agreeing with the kid and blaming the teacher is a sign of being a good parent. Thus, the kid gets passed o the next grade more ignorant than when he arrived...so sad.

[peppermint]

I had a response and it got deleted!!!!!

[Oldskool]

Feb 20, 2010 10:00:49 GMT -5 peppermint said:

I had a response and it got deleted!!!!!

How did that happen?

[peppermint]

I accidentally hit refresh . I purposely took a few days to think about it before I responded too

[Oldskool]

Well, think again.....post, pep, post!

[peppermint]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a teacher or alumni of APS. I've taught very briefly so my take on this is different. Thank you OS for explaining the difference between the compentency tests and the high school exit tests.

Firstly, I think a lot of what we see is because as a society we have become so individualistic that we have rigid roles for everyone. A teacher's job is to teach and s/he should stay in his/her lane... For anyone who has been in any of the helping and teaching professions, we know that mindset is unrealistic. While a teacher's main job is to teach, it is nearly impossible when you have a classroom of 35 kids, 20 of whom have little-no self control. Again this points back to the societial value of self-indulgence.

I'm not saying children's rights aren't important but I do believe we have granted them too many rights and responsibilities. Children's opinions should be valued but they also need to know their time and place (that's a rant for another day).

In Florida the high school exit test was replaced about 9 years ago with a compentency exam. I agree that the previous test was flawed. Why is a high school exit exam written on an 8th grade level? The argument was that once you reach high school, math and science classes are different. What that says to me is that those who are in traditional classes aren't receiving high school level basic information.

IDK about other states, but with the FCAT, many schools have found ways around certain scores being calculated into the school's overall "grade." For example, only those who test during the initial testing period are counted. Low performing students are encouraged (not in all schools) to miss the first round of testing. They take the test during make up days. They meet the requirement of taking the test without affecting the school's image. While I can understand ppl's upsetness with this, I also understand the school's dilemma of an accurate reflection vs. much needed funding.

As with any other sweeping change... things changed for a reason. Teachers now have to teach towards testing because there were serious flaws in the past. There was a time when the attitude was "those who can't, teach." So you had some who were in the field because it was a steady paycheck; they couldn't care less if the students actually learned. Unfortunately, though this was the minority, they came to represent the majority. So then the attitude becames, "if the students fail to learn, the teachers have failed to teach."

In regards to papers... I know they are writing papers in middle school. I haven't had too much contact with high schoolers to know if this is pushed. In Florida there is "Florida Writes" in addition to the FCAT so I guess the argument could be made that they are still working towards a test :/. I'm not sure this isn't quality education because in many fields, your competence is specialized... in a sense, it does prepare them for the workforce. It doesn't prepare for academia

[huey]

I'm a third grade teacher in an urban city, the school is dead smack in the worse areas of the city. 2/3s of the murders that happened in the city happened in 2-3 block radius of my school, and the kids would talk about it next day at school. Someone said it, as a teacher its so much you have to deal with. I don't even remember my teachers dealing with these sort of issues when i was in third grade. I'm a teacher, therapist, dad,brother, nurse,bodyguard, so many roles and hats. I don't want to talk about things too much, but just know things are overwhelming alot of teachers and the kids are missing out.

[peppermint]

Huey, does competency testing begin in 3rd grade in your state?

This is another thing I'm iffy about. While I do think today's kids are some punks, I think it's a great deal of presssure to know at age 8/9 that if you fail a single test then you fail the entire year.

[T-Rex91]

Feb 22, 2010 8:54:56 GMT -5 peppermint said:

Huey, does competency testing begin in 3rd grade in your state?

This is another thing I'm iffy about. While I do think today's kids are some punks, I think it's a great deal of presssure to know at age 8/9 that if you fail a single test then you fail the entire year.

In non-US educational systems (i.e. Jamaica) it's my understanding you take a couple of tests during your elementary and secondary years that determine not only what happens that year, but whether you get to follow an academic or vocational track for the balance of your education. I personally don't think the pressure is necessarily a bad idea. I've never gone to school with a lazy Caribbean. When you have one shot, you make the best of it sometimes.

[Highly Favored]

There was a lot here to read and respond to, but I will say this.

My son is in high school and he has done several research and term papers. However, he is in an accelerated program and they do a lot of research and writing. I don't know if it is the same for all high school students.

[Highly Favored]

1st Question: Do you think our kids are getting a quality education?

As for the system as a whole, I really can't say. What I can answer is, as a parent, I make sure that my children are receiving a quality education. Teachers have significant demands on them, and having their students perform well on standardized tests is just one of those demands. Add that to fact that most of them have 25+ students in their classroom, with different needs, personalities, etc. Add to that the fact that they've got to deal with the parents of those children, school administration...Anyway, you get my point.

Also, some people are not at school because it is their passion. They're there to collect a paycheck and don't plan to do a lot to make sure your child gets the quality education they deserve.

I said all of that to say that I make sure I follow my child's progress, that I read everything the school sends to my home, attend every meeting and parent workshop that I can, and remain actively involved in my children's educational experience. Parental involvement is a significant factor in assuring your children get what they really need in school. If you don't like what you see, express that. I have a close friend at my younger son's primary school and I ask her for recommendations regarding the best teachers in each grade. I send a letter to the principal outlining my first and second choices every year. I haven't always gotten the teacher I requested, but I always got an excellent teacher. I believe it is because I have sent the message to the school that I won't accept anything less than the best for my child. So, I think parents have a role to play,too.

[Highly Favored]

Do you think the teachers are actually "teaching"?

I think some are and some are not. I know for a fact that some teachers spend the majority of their instructional time teaching "the test". I have not had that experience with either of my children accept once when my oldest child was in 3rd grade. I marched myself right up to that school and met with the principal and requested he be moved. (Something happened that year and I did not request a specific teacher before school started.) For that and other reasons, that individual was not a good teacher so she did what she knew to do to protect her job.

Most of the teachers my children have had have been so good, the standardized test is not even mentioned by them until it was time to administer it. The class as a whole excelled because they were able to take the standards and incoroporate them into the learning experience.

Part of me wants to say it is unfair to place this kind of pressure on the teacher, but when I think about what I just said, perhaps the tests separate the good teachers from the marginal ones. IDK

[Cambist]

1. AP is an excuse for schools to lower standards. What kids are learning in the AP classes should be normal curriculum (in most cases). Why do "regular" students graduate learning how to write an essay while AP students write term papers?

Why is my 5th grader not learning grammer? Why did she not learn it in the 3rd or 4th grade besides what we taught at home. One 4th grade teacher mentioned that she had to dust off her old grammer book to run off for work sheets (on her own dime of course) so that the kids would understand WHY what they were writing was correct or incorrect....and not just "because it sounds right".

Parents have a great responsibility in the education of our kids but this country has it's priorities fucked up. Educational systems should be MASSIVELY expensive to operate while the civilian defense contractor should be begging for money for a new copier!

We complain about incompetent leaders? Well, leadership reflects the constituency....

[Highly Favored]

And finally, as to the question about teachers expressing concern...

I think it is important for teachers to have compassion for their students. Children tend to thrive in an environment where they know the person in charge really cares about them as individuals. I think that, over the years, teachers as a whole have gotten away from that. I'm not saying they should coddle the students, but stop long enough to acknowledge a student who doesn't appear to be quite him/herself on a given day. Someone has said that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. I can identify with that.

[Noble Work]

@os "They are supposed to measure what students should know and be able to do in each grade and subject tested. This is why teachers tailor their curriculum to cover the material that's going to be on the test."

I just find that to be a potential problem if not an existing one. I think students "miss" out out on a lot of stuff. In middle/high school we "covered"/prepared for a test to test your knowledge and understanding. Then at the end of the semester we had an exam which laid heavenly on your finale. Now during that time and depending on the subject we had science projects, essays, term papers, research papers, bibliographies. We learned about end notes, foot notes and it goes on.

Now going back to early grades. These grades actually taught us basics.....(the whole year....lol) and later prepped us for the next grade on. Now it seems like all of what the 8/9 year olds are learning is "Competency" test material only. I'm I correct in saying that maybe they don't have time to teach/learn anything else? If this cycle continue to repeat itself then at what year/grade level are the children going to learn the "meat and potatoes" that prepares them for high school and College? Are we grooming a generation of good "test takers" only and that's it. If the teachers can't "teach" and the children can't "learn it" then how are we (America) supposed to un-achor it's percentage comparison to other countries?

@91 I have to disagree with you there. I believe we called these College Prep I, College Prep II, or Vocational tracks. I think that is a bad Idea because a lot of people who turned out to be scientist, Judges, CEO's, doctors etc didn't always have the grades early on to lay down the foundation to their careers. A lot of which didn't really get serious until their early years of college. I really don't see how test taking in those earlier years determine your future.

Ex: Who would of thought that a carpenter would turn out to be a King. lol.

@hf Parent involvement is a must. We always want our children to be in a good school zone and go the the best area school. Well, there are some "not so good ones" out here and we try to not let our children go to those (being real). If that school didn't make AYP then our kids ain't going there, again (being real). I had to realize that it's not so much as the school or the zone. Our areal schools can fail NOT to meet AYP for anything. This is where Parental involvement is important. You "make" that teacher teach your child. No, not in an angry parent kind of way. But in a concerning parent kind of way. I got tired of "searching" for the best teachers in the school lol. I was like "you know what, I shouldn't have to be doing this you gone teach my damn child"..lol. I'm not going to let you be lazy, your not going to look over my child, your not going to just hit on topics and move on to the next cause you got 20 more children. But you do all of that by Parent Involvement via showing up at Parent/teacher conference, sending a "note" to your child's teacher and calling them. But HF, you are dead on about that Parent Involvement....that should be part of a child's grade. j/k

@cam Brother, I thought I was crazy or old JUST thinking what you said. You are 100 bruh. You make people (me) "Think" about stuff and you are exactly right. I will admit, I did research papers, term papers etc and you know what I didn't have any AP Classes.

And this! "Parents have a great responsibility in the education of our kids but this country has it's priorities fucked up. Educational systems should be MASSIVELY expensive to operate while the civilian defense contractor should be begging for money for a new copier!" Can you please text this to our Federal Education Dept. Board? C'mon bruh I know you know somebody. lol

[Highly Favored]

I agree re: education being a priority for financial resources, but, again, to me, that only addresses part of a multi-faceted problem.

No amount of money can make a person who doesn't care about anything except getting by (keeping their jobs by teaching "tests") behave any differently.

I live in a rural area where the school district is one of the largest employers. If people want to work, that is one of the few better paying opportunities for people who don't want to leave home and relocate. Working for the school here means competitive salaries (in our market), state benefits, and summers off. There are a lot of people that are there that shouldn't be because it is frankly a very good opportunity for them. That is why I strongly emphasisze parental involvement. If we allow our children to fall through the cracks because of what the school did or did not do, shame on us!

[huey]

My district is state run. So i follow a state given curriculum and pacing chart that i have to keep up with each marking period.

I also have 2 state computer programs that each student has to do 20 minutes per day on. So if they on the computer 40 minutes per day learning skills they are poor on or didn't achieve in 2nd or 1st grade, how they going to learn the new skills? My kids were better off before we was forced to run these programs.

Yes competency testing starts in 3rd grade. We just had our benchmarking recently and they bombed. It's a mix of incompetency, lack of test taking skills, foul attitudes and low confidence.

Alot stems cause alot of kids don't know how to read or write. When i say read, im not just saying sounding out letters i mean actually comprehending what they read.

We do Silent Reading in the morning for 15 minutes. Some days its like pulling teeth to get these kids to read a book. I'm last time i checked the only teacher in my grade who makes the kids write a summary of the book they read(or what they read) to make sure they are comprehending what they read. I also make them do self to text connections, where they compare parts of the book to stuff that happened to them in real life or real life examples they can provide. Kids like to talk and share. But i had to cut that out cuz it took up alot of time

[peppermint]

I'm not a fan of tracking either. Why hold an eight year accountable for the duration of their academic career based on a handful of tests but let a 20 year change majors at will? As Huey pointed out, a lot can go into a test score. Aside from what he mentioned, the child could have been hungry or in a bad mood that day along with a number of other factors.

[Cambist]

SCHOOL SYSTEMS have to be efficient just like HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS. In America, both are broken. It's not a matter of just having competent teachers in the classrooms. It's not just about having a new building, or uniforms, or some high speed testing and evaluation system...it's about the entire process of learning.

THE SYSTEM has to change because society has changed. We are operating an antiquated system based on antiquated assumptions. Past education systems assumed that parents were involved. Hell, most systems assume that mom will be home when the kids get out of school at 2:30pm!!

Like the Health Care System, the Education System is not just one component but the sum of all the components. If we cannot address the lack of parental involement, we will never shrink the achievement gap. If we cannot effectively address the issue of test driven systems, we will continue to "teach the test" because in reality...it's all teachers have time to do!!

[Highly Favored]

Feb 23, 2010 12:06:54 GMT -5 Cambist said:

SCHOOL SYSTEMS have to be efficient just like HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS. In America, both are broken. It's not a matter of just having competent teachers in the classrooms. It's not just about having a new building, or uniforms, or some high speed testing and evaluation system...it's about the entire process of learning.

THE SYSTEM has to change because society has changed. We are operating an antiquated system based on antiquated assumptions. Past education systems assumed that parents were involved. Hell, most systems assume that mom will be home when the kids get out of school at 2:30pm!!

Like the Health Care System, the Education System is not just one component but the sum of all the components. If we cannot address the lack of parental involement, we will never shrink the achievement gap. If we cannot effectively address the issue of test driven systems, we will continue to "teach the test" because in reality...it's all teachers have time to do!!

I agree with all of this, but especially with the part about assuming parents are home when children get out of school. Many things at my child's school are scheduled when the parent working until 5 is still at work. That is a pet peeve for me, and I have expressed it. It's getting better. In the meantime, I've adjusted as best I can.

[MochaD]

I don't have any kids but I will say this much. Schools and most parents are failing our kids miserably!! Kids aren't taught to think. They are taught to memorize. Common sense is not common. Parental support is lacking and kids have too many damn options and not enough stimulating outlets. My hats off to teachers but they have become a childs everything because some parents are too busy and stressed working, single parent, etc. losing focus of paying attention to their child. In order for kids to learn, I mean REALLY learn, what they learn in school should be reinforced when they get home. Unfortunately, that's just the surface. All that is happening with our kids and education is a domino effect that falls from the government. Money, lack of programs, "no child left" behind, etc. Yeah, we are slowly but surely handing our asses to China and India...

[peppermint]

Feb 23, 2010 12:06:54 GMT -5 Cambist said:

Hell, most systems assume that mom will be home when the kids get out of school at 2:30pm!!

Yea... they tried to alter the time where my mom lives to have the children get out closer to 4:30-5:00, that did NOT go over very well.

[Julie Art]

Ok, I didn't read of all of this. But what I did, no the principal doesn't always have their staff back. My mother's principal has no one back at their school but his own, period.

As for kids and college. No, they are not prepared by far. From 2005 up to know I've seen countless students whose whole 1st year or year in a half is taking nothing but remedial courses. Courses that don't even count towards college credit. And as far as writing a simple paper, I've looked at so many and wondered how in the hell did these students graduate high school, let alone get into college.

We've had two major reforms in the educational system in America. The first was when Russia beat us launching the satellite Sputnik into space. That was a top-down process where government came in and dictated what needed to change. It failed. Then there was the bottom up process where those in the school systems like teachers, etc. Dictated what needed to be changed, and that didn't work. No Child Left Behind was just the cycle repeating itself, hence why it hasn't worked with the top down process. What needs to change is the core of the school, the mission, vision, vaulea' and goals. The culture of the educational system, so to speak.

[Julie Art]

And for the record, my typos on this board doesn't reflect my educational attainment properly, lol.