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Post by FatalDST on Oct 28, 2009 9:53:35 GMT -5
Phi Beta Sigma is going to act a fool... another chapter here (TSU) just got suspended too for hazing. But I agree with Leja, too many stories, something just dont sound right.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 10:11:57 GMT -5
I've been cozying up to this subject for the past few months and I think our approach to analyzing these hazing cases is wrong. The phrases: "Aspirants know what they're getting into" and "These dumbazz kids are ruining our orgs with their hazing antics" abound.
Do they know? Does anybody sign up...to die? Even the hazers...yes, their intention is to expose a pledge to a certain amount of physical abuse for the purpose of promoting a tradition (we'll get to the folly of that later), but unless they're sociopaths, we don't really believe that they're out to kill people, do we?
There's a principle in the law of torts called "eggshell skull theory." In short, a defendant is liable for all consequences of a battery, regardless of how unforeseeable or freakish they might be. If you have a pledge do a few laps around the track (but nobody told you he had a heart murmur and a respiratory condition) and he collapses and dies, guess what? Exactly. Apportioning fault is useless at this point. This young man is dead and a great many people will pay the price for that. I'd like to know, what are the national organizations, universities and graduate chapters prepared to do manage risk BEFOREhand. This whole "outlaw the behavior; pretend it doesn't persist; act surprised when problems ensue; prosecute the perpetrators; blame the victims (if they survive)" method fails us time and time again.
It's time for some real talk. And until folks quit lying, we will make no progress.
[/rant]
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 10:52:00 GMT -5
I've been cozying up to this subject for the past few months and I think our approach to analyzing these hazing cases is wrong. The phrases: "Aspirants know what they're getting into" and "These dumbazz kids are ruining our orgs with their hazing antics" abound. Do they know? Does anybody sign up...to die? Even the hazers...yes, their intention is to expose a pledge to a certain amount of physical abuse for the purpose of promoting a tradition (we'll get to the folly of that later), but unless they're sociopaths, we don't really believe that they're out to kill people, do we? There's a principle in the law of torts called "eggshell skull theory." In short, a defendant is liable for all consequences of a battery, regardless of how unforeseeable or freakish they might be. If you have a pledge do a few laps around the track (but nobody told you he had a heart murmur and a respiratory condition) and he collapses and dies, guess what? Exactly. Apportioning fault is useless at this point. This young man is dead and a great many people will pay the price for that. I'd like to know, what are the national organizations, universities and graduate chapters prepared to do manage risk BEFOREhand. This whole "outlaw the behavior; pretend it doesn't persist; act surprised when problems ensue; prosecute the perpetrators; blame the victims (if they survive)" method fails us time and time again. It's time for some real talk. And until folks quit lying, we will make no progress. [/rant] See, underlined part is what I don't understand. I guess that is because I come from the school of thought that all this is asked and made known up front. That is why I don't really understand why folks are being injured from pre-existing conditions, why isn't anyone asking do you have any ailments, allergies, etc? Hell, you have to have physicals before you are allowed to play sports. But each person's experience is different.  |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 11:05:30 GMT -5
Because, Juicy...EVERYONE is afraid to tell the truth. Chapters are afraid to ask, because they don't want to initiate a trail that looks like they were planning to haze. Aspirants are afraid to disclose because they don't want to be considered a liability and they want to be selected. The only counsel they seek is from people in the same boat as them, no experience, no wisdom. Everyone involved is short-sighted, no one imagines that the unthinkable will happen to them. All aspirants are worried about is "getting in." All chapters are worried about is "getting the line through." The number one place to get some guidance is where? The grad chapter. But guess what? All the FEAR is preventing the right questions from getting asked and the right advice from getting dispensed.
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 14:47:05 GMT -5
I see what you are saying, but based off my experience, everyone knew what was up with you because of how it was done. No one was afraid to tell anyone anything because of the method (i.e. I know my #5 is hypoglecimic (sp?) I know my #4 is lactose intolerent, I know my #3 has really bad sinus allergies, etc., etc. I know the #7 on the line before mine as asthma, etc.). It was all about getting to know each other on both sides. But like I said, everyones experience and how things were conducted are different. This day in age is more strict then my day in age. Not a year goes by where I don't say thank GOD for letting me pledge during the late 90's.
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Post by FatalDST on Oct 28, 2009 14:47:53 GMT -5
nobody wants to be the liable party!
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 14:52:01 GMT -5
nobody wants to be the liable party! Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Seriously. Some of my prophytes and line sisters are the BEST examples of this, and we as a chapter admired them to this day for it. |
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Post by FatalDST on Oct 28, 2009 14:56:57 GMT -5
nobody wants to be the liable party! Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Seriously. Some of my prophytes and line sisters are the BEST examples of this, and we as a chapter admired them to this day for it. I would have to agree... but we know thats not going to happen... thats like tellinga crook not to steel or rob if he's not going to admit he did it... |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 15:05:36 GMT -5
Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Seriously. Some of my prophytes and line sisters are the BEST examples of this, and we as a chapter admired them to this day for it. I would have to agree... but we know thats not going to happen... thats like tellinga crook not to steel or rob if he's not going to admit he did it... ::DEAD:: True, true, but is where the mentallity of it's all about me and not us as a "group" comes into play lately with these new school greeks. Then again also,it was less heard of for greeks going to jail for hazing. It wasn't illegal then as far as state laws went. You just got suspended or expelled from the org. depending on the severity, but no one was seeing jail time, so I see both. Just don't engage if you can't take the consequences is my answer. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 15:49:14 GMT -5
nobody wants to be the liable party! Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Seriously. Some of my prophytes and line sisters are the BEST examples of this, and we as a chapter admired them to this day for it. And sometimes, Juicy, nothing goes wrong and people still die. As a prophyte, you can do everything right (as far as we can consider 'rightness' given that pledging is against the rules). You can break neither a university rule nor a state law and craziness still pops off. And then what? You have the powers-that-be who offered no guidance all along shipping their young members up the river talkin about "well, you shouldn't have done the crime if you can't do the time." I think we are at the point, where this is officially ridiculous. The crime that YOU committed against me, the one that would make my membership essentially worthless if I chose not to participate, the one that I MUST perpetuate if I am to retain the respect of my peers and elders, the one that you KNOW continues to take place and yet you look the other way and even ENCOURAGE it, but for which you provide no guidance or support because you're grown and have a family and are too grown to help (but not too grown to show up to set and whip some occasional azz), the one that you congratulate me on if I pull it off without incident... ...suddenly in those 1 in 10,000 cases where something dreadful happens despite my doing the best I know how to do with what I'm given (which is admittedly not much) suddenly I'm a felon? It makes no sense. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 15:51:27 GMT -5
It wasn't illegal then as far as state laws went. Yes it was, especially in the state where you pledged. |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 15:55:10 GMT -5
Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Seriously. Some of my prophytes and line sisters are the BEST examples of this, and we as a chapter admired them to this day for it. And then what? You have the powers-that-be who offered no guidance all along shipping their young members up the river talkin about "well, you shouldn't have done the crime if you can't do the time." I think we are at the point, where this is officially ridiculous. The crime that YOU committed against me, the one that would make my membership essentially worthless if I chose not to participate, the one that I MUST perpetuate if I am to retain the respect of my peers and elders, the one that you KNOW continues to take place and yet you look the other way and even ENCOURAGE it, but for which you provide no guidance or support because you're grown and have a family and are too grown to help (but not too grown to show up to set and whip some occasional azz), the one that you congratulate me on if I pull it off without incident... ...suddenly in those 1 in 10,000 cases where something dreadful happens despite my doing the best I know how to do with what I'm given (which is admittedly not much) suddenly I'm a felon? It makes no sense. NOT if the person who is in charge has a firm hand on what goes on (i.e. don't you all meet up anywhere where I'm not, period, point blank, end of the discussion) and the rest of whoever knows and understands this or they aren't allowed to participate in whatever. There is a way to curtail foolishness. Also, undergrad and grad chapters have to be able to feel like they can talk and trust each other, and that the grad advisors have the ugrad chapter back. I know we felt that way about ours and vice versa. They really trusted us, but we didn't have have all these restrictive rules that are in effect now. |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 15:59:39 GMT -5
It wasn't illegal then as far as state laws went. Yes it was, especially in the state where you pledged. I never heard of folks going to jail for hazing until this day and age, and some folks were getting caught. Do you know which I state I pledged in? Cause if that was the case for late 90's, earlier 2000's, no one I knew of that got caught went to jail, even folks I know personally. I'm just saying . Maybe we might be talking about the severity difference because folks weren't getting wrap sheets and being made convicted felons until like mid 2000's. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 16:02:54 GMT -5
I recall you saying what state you pledged in. I'm not saying whether or not folks were going to jail in 1999. I'm just saying that if I remember correctly where you got down, the hazing statute (making physical and emotional abuse for the purpose of initiation, as a precondition for membership, to gain affiliation with or as a condition for continued membership a misdemeanor)went into effect no later than 1996.
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 16:08:02 GMT -5
I recall you saying what state you pledged in. I'm not saying whether or not folks were going to jail in 1999. I'm just saying that if I remember correctly where you got down, the hazing statute (making physical and emotional abuse for the purpose of initiation, as a precondition for membership, to gain affiliation with or as a condition for continued membership a misdemeanor)went into effect no later than 1996. True, but law enforcement wasn't arresting folks and taking them to jail, so I think we are talking in difference about the severity of it from then to now. Especially how you stated it was considered a misdemeanor in 1996 and now folks are getting real jail time, meaning it is no longer deemed a misdemeanor. Hell, folks weren't even getting expelled out of school like now. But, it is what it is. Everything in life is a risk and I still say that you shouldn't engage if you can't deal with the consequences. Based on the consequences today, there is no way I would bother, jail isn't worth it. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 28, 2009 16:25:39 GMT -5
True, but law enforcement wasn't arresting folks and taking them to jail, so I think we are talking in difference about the severity of it from then to now. Neither is law enforcement busting up into set and taking people to jail today. Today, jail time is the penalty imposed at the outcome of a court case initiated by the aggrieved party. Law enforcement is still not "catching" people so-to-speak. Hazers only make it into jail because they have been found guilty by a jury. Also, this statement: is not true. At all. Depends on the charging document and some other things, but you can definitely sit in jail for 2 or 3 years on a misdemeanor (esp. in the midwest and south) |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Oct 28, 2009 20:44:21 GMT -5
DST, it isn't "what people do" it's what we do to supposedly teach people their place in the world. Yes, interest should know when enough is enough, but damn what sort of satisfation are we really getting from watching and laughing at these performances. "Victims" chose to participate because they hear "us" talking trash on the yard and in our communities. They read message boards like these and they are simply trying to avoid being hazed all the days of their greek lives. We created this and I thinking it's only fair that we take the blame. It's sad whet people chose to put themselves through for membership in our orgs. The hazers are wrong but the victims make the choice to participate. Again, I am by no means absolving the members. Their a$$es should have their letters pulled. But we can't paint the aspirants as innocent victims of a corrupt Greek system. Respect is not worth disfigurement, disrespect, or death. Maybe it's just me. I wanted to be a Delta but if that didn't work out in UG, it would not have been the end of the world. I wasn't even willing to lost my scholarship, let alone my life. If that chapter is rogue (and let's be honest, we know which ones are the farthest out there), maybe that's NOT the chapter you pledge. Waiting a few years until another opportunity is available may be the right move. |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Oct 28, 2009 21:05:06 GMT -5
Yes it was, especially in the state where you pledged. I never heard of folks going to jail for hazing until this day and age, and some folks were getting caught. Do you know which I state I pledged in? Cause if that was the case for late 90's, earlier 2000's, no one I knew of that got caught went to jail, even folks I know personally. I'm just saying . Maybe we might be talking about the severity difference because folks weren't getting wrap sheets and being made convicted felons until like mid 2000's. some cases are settled and people get no jail time.... |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 22:21:06 GMT -5
True, but law enforcement wasn't arresting folks and taking them to jail, so I think we are talking in difference about the severity of it from then to now. Neither is law enforcement busting up into set and taking people to jail today. Today, jail time is the penalty imposed at the outcome of a court case initiated by the aggrieved party. Law enforcement is still not "catching" people so-to-speak. Hazers only make it into jail because they have been found guilty by a jury. Also, this statement: is not true. At all. Depends on the charging document and some other things, but you can definitely sit in jail for 2 or 3 years on a misdemeanor (esp. in the midwest and south) I can't debate legal issues on the matter based on state rules etc cause I'm not versed in it. But I can say for a fact in my state even when if pledges told about hazing etc, folks weren't going to jail. The police nor the state legal system were asked to get involved. It was all handled within the org when I was in ugrad. That was just unheard of. Now, not so much. It is what it is. |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 28, 2009 22:25:16 GMT -5
I never heard of folks going to jail for hazing until this day and age, and some folks were getting caught. Do you know which I state I pledged in? Cause if that was the case for late 90's, earlier 2000's, no one I knew of that got caught went to jail, even folks I know personally. I'm just saying . Maybe we might be talking about the severity difference because folks weren't getting wrap sheets and being made convicted felons until like mid 2000's. some cases are settled and people get no jail time.... It was unheard of for these cases to be handled outside the org. Besides maybe the school. Pressing charges and bringing in the law was unheard of when I was in school for hazing. Different times though. |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Oct 29, 2009 9:33:29 GMT -5
some cases are settled and people get no jail time.... It was unheard of for these cases to be handled outside the org. Besides maybe the school. Pressing charges and bringing in the law was unheard of when I was in school for hazing. Different times though. Ummmm it's just 2009, lol. You said late 90s and early 2000s....we are still in the early 2000s so times are not that different. Maybe people didn't press charges because they decided to settle with the org? There are times when the law gets involved....it may not get to the point where people are getting arrested and going to jail (police presence does not automatically mean arrest and charges) but it does happen. Maybe law enforcement never got involved in anything at your school but that's not true for the rest of the state. |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 29, 2009 11:03:35 GMT -5
It was unheard of for these cases to be handled outside the org. Besides maybe the school. Pressing charges and bringing in the law was unheard of when I was in school for hazing. Different times though. Ummmm it's just 2009, lol. You said late 90s and early 2000s....we are still in the early 2000s so times are not that different. Maybe people didn't press charges because they decided to settle with the org? There are times when the law gets involved....it may not get to the point where people are getting arrested and going to jail (police presence does not automatically mean arrest and charges) but it does happen. Maybe law enforcement never got involved in anything at your school but that's not true for the rest of the state. 10 years from then to know (1999 to 2009) is a HUGE difference from what I have experienced and see others experience now. I saw the difference starting to take form once I graduated in 2002 and that was a period of 3 years. There will always be a vast change in the way things are done in a 10 year time span, regardless if it is greek related or not. So yes, from what I know and see now based off what I experienced personally (ESPECIALLY within my org. There is a huge difference and those that are my sorors know EXCATLY what I'm talking about), there is a HUGE difference within that 10 year time span, period. As far as schools. I would have to say that I knew of alot of greeks at different schools through out the state and if someone got arrested for hazing (which is what I'm talking about, being arrsested and going to jail and having charges pressed. I know sometimes the police may have showed up to whatever cause of a phone call. That happened to my cousin who pledged up north in the 80's, I'm not unaware of that :  that would have spread just like everything else greek related did amongst the schools. But once again, I'm going off personal experience here and what I saw and experienced first hand, not what I heard others say or do. And times have changed, even within a 10 year time span. Any greek that crossed 10 years ago will tell you that, period. It is inevitable, things will change. Hell, 'my dad can tell you how things changed from the late 60s when he pledged to the late '70s and there were no laws again'st pleding then. 10 year time span. My brother can tell you how things have changed from 1996 to 2006. 10 year time span. As I said before, it is what it is. Times are different and once again I, along with others who have reached that 8,9, or 10 yr span are saying the same, ESPECIALLY greeks I know personally that crossed at schools through out this country. : But as I have stated through out this post and this thread, this is MY experience, and who can talk, debate, or negate my experience unless you were there to experience it with me . |
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Post by ReignMan19 on Oct 29, 2009 12:12:03 GMT -5
I try to stay out of these threads but I will say when I got to school which was in fall 2000 .. Some orgs were kicked off for the same reasons they are being kicked off now... def didn't think this was a new trend...
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 29, 2009 12:46:24 GMT -5
Reign no one is talking about chapters being kicked off the yard, there is nothing new about that.
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Post by Robelite on Oct 29, 2009 12:46:51 GMT -5
nobody wants to be the liable party! Exhalt!! Say it again....say it one more time for me!!! See, that's why you're one of my favorite girls, Julie!!  Personal responsibility people! |
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on Oct 29, 2009 12:53:56 GMT -5
Then don't engage in the activities if you aren't going to own up if something goes wrong, is my answer. Exhalt!! Say it again....say it one more time for me!!! See, that's why you're one of my favorite girls, Julie!! Personal responsibility people! That's what happens when people; 1. Don't do a cost vs benefit analysis 2. Don't believe they'll get caught Those who TRULY understand the consequences and take into account they are NOT completely in control of the situation (can potentially get caught) and STILL proceed are more likely to stand up and take what ever is to be dealt. Hell, they're probably likely to throw themselves under the bus and save others in the process. Trust me. I know.  |
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Post by Julie Art on Oct 29, 2009 13:13:51 GMT -5
Exhalt!! Say it again....say it one more time for me!!! See, that's why you're one of my favorite girls, Julie!! Personal responsibility people! That's what happens when people; 1. Don't do a cost vs benefit analysis 2. Don't believe they'll get caught Those who TRULY understand the consequences and take into account they are NOT completely in control of the situation (can potentially get caught) and STILL proceed are more likely to stand up and take what ever is to be dealt.Hell, they're probably likely to throw themselves under the bus and save others in the process.Trust me. I know. PREACH! THAT RIGHT THERE IS DOING WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TO SAVE THE SISTERHOOD! I've seen it happen soror LOL @ Rob! |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Oct 29, 2009 13:54:47 GMT -5
10 years from then to know (1999 to 2009) is a HUGE difference from what I have experienced and see others experience now. I saw the difference starting to take form once I graduated in 2002 and that was a period of 3 years. There will always be a vast change in the way things are done in a 10 year time span, regardless if it is greek related or not. So yes, from what I know and see now based off what I experienced personally (ESPECIALLY within my org. There is a huge difference and those that are my sorors know EXCATLY what I'm talking about), there is a HUGE difference within that 10 year time span, period. As far as schools. I would have to say that I knew of alot of greeks at different schools through out the state and if someone got arrested for hazing (which is what I'm talking about, being arrsested and going to jail and having charges pressed. I know sometimes the police may have showed up to whatever cause of a phone call. That happened to my cousin who pledged up north in the 80's, I'm not unaware of that : that would have spread just like everything else greek related did amongst the schools. But once again, I'm going off personal experience here and what I saw and experienced first hand, not what I heard others say or do. And times have changed, even within a 10 year time span. Any greek that crossed 10 years ago will tell you that, period. It is inevitable, things will change. Hell, 'my dad can tell you how things changed from the late 60s when he pledged to the late '70s and there were no laws again'st pleding then. 10 year time span. My brother can tell you how things have changed from 1996 to 2006. 10 year time span. As I said before, it is what it is. Times are different and once again I, along with others who have reached that 8,9, or 10 yr span are saying the same, ESPECIALLY greeks I know personally that crossed at schools through out this country. : But as I have stated through out this post and this thread, this is MY experience, and who can talk, debate, or negate my experience unless you were there to experience it with me . No one is negating YOUR experience but some of what you were saying seem like blanket statements. I thought you pledged a long time ago or something (like 20 years) but to me late 90s isn't that long ago, lol. |
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Post by T-Rex91 on Oct 29, 2009 13:57:00 GMT -5
No one is negating YOUR experience but some of what you were saying seem like blanket statements. I thought you pledged a long time ago or something (like 20 years) but to me late 90s isn't that long ago, lol.  There's some age discrimination going on up in this thread...lol |
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Post by Bunny Hop on Oct 29, 2009 13:57:33 GMT -5
I try to stay out of these threads but I will say when I got to school which was in fall 2000 .. Some orgs were kicked off for the same reasons they are being kicked off now... def didn't think this was a new trend... I got to college at the same time and the stuff that was going on now is the same stuff that was going on then. |
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"They get two Roos and a snap." ~ perroloco{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif{/=}{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif{/=}
that would have spread just like everything else greek related did amongst the schools.
There's some age discrimination going on up in this thread...lol