Why We Need HealthCare Reform

[Julie Art]

Mar 23, 2010 16:53:14 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

What? I AM in the medical field. I AM the research. lol That 's why am missing most of what you are saying. I don't see it.

Are you a nurse in the field?

in red, iDIED!

[Vudu_Prince]

Mar 23, 2010 16:53:14 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

What? I AM in the medical field. I AM the research. lol That 's why am missing most of what you are saying. I don't see it.

Are you a nurse in the field?

Then you should know.

<<Military Trained LPN 13 years ago

<<Has worked as a Medical Technologist

<<Has seen said shortfall for the last 10 years

<<Owns Small Medical Services Company since 2002

<<Getting Masters as we speak in Clinical Research Administration


In 2002, many national reports attempted to quantify the nursing shortage and explain the threat this problem poses to health care delivery. According to a report released by the Health Resources and Services Administration within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the number of states with a shortage of RNs is expected to grow from 30 states in 2000 to 44 states in 2020. Surveys and studies published in 2002 in the New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of the American Medical Association, and by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations all confirm that the shortage of RNs is influencing the delivery of health care in the U.S and negatively affecting patient outcomes.

This and other research suggests that the current shortage is the product of several trends including: steep population growth in several states, a diminishing pipeline of new students to nursing, a decline in RN earnings relative to other career options, an aging nursing workforce, low job satisfaction and poor working conditions that contribute to high workforce attrition rates, and an aging population that will require intense health care services. These issues are occurring just as the majority of nurses are retiring and job opportunities within health care are expanding. However, there have been recent trends of people entering the nursing profession at a later age and an increased overall interest in nursing.

www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=138





So again what don't you see? I'm interested to understand this. Maybe since you are soley a researcher then you are speaking in terms of funding shortfalls from the federal government. Thats another issue all together. I feel its more of a compliance issue with the FDA than money. That's just me though. Just because you are in the industry doesn't mean you research it. To you it maybe just a job.... which is okay.

[Noble Work]

I didn't ask for for your resume'

I asked you to tie this into nursing staff, bottle necking and no nursing jobs in the future.

And the reason why nursing is now understaffed and has been for a long time now is because there is a shortage of nurse educators. No one wants to TEACH nursing in the nursing school/programs. When this happens the nursing program has to limit the intake or number of nurses for the nursing program NOT because no one was interested in being a nurse. AND also nurses realized that they can make MORE just by being a nurse and NOT an educator. A lot of nurses bring in more money than the nurse educators in the nursing schools. AND,....you know what never mind.

Every time someone doesn't agree with you-you tell them to go do their research.

Have you ever thought about researching your research?

I still respect you brother, you are really deep and make people think outside the box.

[Kyng of JDs]

I dont know how to do that quote thing you did upthread, PM me please

Kyng by my eye - you're not invalidating the analogy, you just made an argument that you should be able to use some other instrument to insure yourself (as you could with an automobile). The point was that you need to be insured by SOME mechanism. Because if you can't cover the expenses of your services (whether out of pocket or through coverage) those of us who are insured DO pay for it by EVER increasing premiums.
I think we agree that you should be insured by some mechanism. My problem with the bill, well law now, is that you can no longer choose the mechanism. Several of the more affordable so-called creative plans have been outlawed. So, now you can only insure with the “standard” plan, which may not be affordable to you. Your only other option is to opt-out and pay $695 penalty.

With respect Kyng, your argument here is bad. It is true that insurance liability coverage is not required on private roads. It is ALSO true however that the overwhelming majority of our society drives on PUBLIC roads (roads which by the way you also help subsidize even if you NEVER drive over them yourself). Your analogy only holds merit if you assume ALL risks yourself as the NASCAR team does. If you will refuse any service that you can't pay for THEN you have a point. But if you would at ANY point, say be in accident, and be taken to the hospital and treated but can't afford the bill - the INSURED shoulder the cost.

I did not do a good job conveying my point with the second paragraph. My core point is that I, the consumer, should have the ability to choose how to “insure.” This bill removes that choice. My NASCAR example was demonstrating that a one-size-fit-all program is not the best option. The individual bears the risk so long as that individual is denied medical care or offered an inferior option. Unfortunately, or fortunately, we do not deny care, so the individual gains a benefit whether or not he has the ability or means to accept the risk (pay for the care). That issue is the root cause. Society has actually begun to self correct this issue. See AMANDA LITTELL, Can a Constitutional Right to Health Guarantee Universal Health Care Coverage or Improved Health Outcomes?: A Survey of Selected States, 35 Conn. L. Rev. 289. This comment tabulated an interesting difference of treatment at public v private healthcare providers. The author noted that the patrons of most public institutions had no insurance. Simply put, a consumer should be allowed to weigh the benefits or losses of insurance and make the decision. The government should not interfere with that choice.

Because you may NOT be able to. And your risks affects other people's premiums. Just as you driving on public roads affects other people driving on public roads.

That would be changing my facts. Again, I am able to cover my costs. Why are you forcing me to buy “insurance”?

What I assume is that anyone who is in need of medical services will not refuse them when offered for free. You'll have to explain your assertion about the privitization of hospitals.

I take back my point. I neglected to read your “if you are unable to pay” qualifier. However, providers can and sometimes do decline to work in arrears. This means you must pay before services are rendered. They may refuse non-emergency treatment. In some cases, emergency treatment may be refused if there is a believable (not necessarily true) medical reason. The ultimate end of this line of reasoning is a truly private provider, no insurance, no billing. See Brian R. Forrest, Cash-only Healthcare, Physicians Practice July/August 2008 (I don’t have my bluebook to fix this cite)

Kyng - any costs outside of the cap would be paid by the individuals plan. That is the new reform that didn't exist prior to this legislation. Prior to this legislation - you could literally lose your house and go bankrupt paying costs because there was no cap. And that is exactly what people did. In the study done by the American Journal of Medicine, 62% of the respondents that ended up in bankruptcy cited medical debt as one of the causes. BTW, who eventually absorbs the cost for those bankruptcies?

Your final point is well taken. I do not understand that to be the case but I am admittedly ignorant of the structure of the plans at this point. As far as bankruptcy, you could lose your house paying bills OR go bankrupt (mutually exclusive). Any bankruptcy lawyer that lets a client lose a house should be sued for malpractice. Yes, medical bills are the leading unsecured debt DISCHARGED in bankruptcy. And, society at large bears the costs, not just the insured…

[Julie Art]

I just exhalted you.

Mar 24, 2010 11:01:22 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

I didn't ask for for your resume'

I asked you to tie this into nursing staff, bottle necking and no nursing jobs in the future.

And the reason why nursing is now understaffed and has been for a long time now is because there is a shortage of nurse educators. No one wants to TEACH nursing in the nursing school/programs. When this happens the nursing program has to limit the intake or number of nurses for the nursing program NOT because no one was interested in being a nurse. AND also nurses realized that they can make MORE just by being a nurse and NOT an educator. A lot of nurses bring in more money than the nurse educators in the nursing schools. AND,....you know what never mind.

Every time someone doesn't agree with you-you tell them to go do their research.

Have you ever thought about researching your research?

I still respect you brother, you are really deep and make people think outside the box.

[Vudu_Prince]

Mar 24, 2010 11:01:22 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

I didn't ask for for your resume'

I asked you to tie this into nursing staff, bottle necking and no nursing jobs in the future.

And the reason why nursing is now understaffed and has been for a long time now is because there is a shortage of nurse educators. No one wants to TEACH nursing in the nursing school/programs. When this happens the nursing program has to limit the intake or number of nurses for the nursing program NOT because no one was interested in being a nurse. AND also nurses realized that they can make MORE just by being a nurse and NOT an educator. A lot of nurses bring in more money than the nurse educators in the nursing schools. AND,....you know what never mind.

Every time someone doesn't agree with you-you tell them to go do their research.

Have you ever thought about researching your research?

I still respect you brother, you are really deep and make people think outside the box.

Ha! Hey guy you are the one who stated your profession first not me. Now you're talking about lack of faculty which is TRUE but it's irrelevant to what I put forth. You stated and I quote "But under-staffing has everything to do with money especially in our current economy. In today's economy a lot of people take jobs because it pays the bills." If you would have said something along the lines you are writing now I would have agreed.

Again research Managed Health-care i.e. HMO's in the 90's. Research how the downsizing of hospitals with an emphasis on outpatient services became common place under the Clinton Administration. Make the connection that THIS is what caused the nursing shortage in the first place.

Explain why President Obama wouldn't back the FTC on zero years of data exclusivity for Pharmaceutical Companies?

Explain why Rep Waxman's bill HR1427 wasn't backed? Why wasn't he considered when the championing of Generic Drugs was spearheaded by him in 1984.

Why is Pres Obama touting Generic Drugs when that war was won 26 years ago?

Why did Rep Ashoo spearhead HR1548 which on paper gives Pharma companies 12 years of exclusivity?

Why doesn't Obama allow a ban on evergreening, which in effect gives Pharma companies lifetime of exclusivity?

Research my research you say? I'd gather your intent backfired.

[DamieQue™]

I think we agree that you should be insured by some mechanism. My problem with the bill, well law now, is that you can no longer choose the mechanism. Several of the more affordable so-called creative plans have been outlawed. So, now you can only insure with the “standard” plan, which may not be affordable to you. Your only other option is to opt-out and pay $695 penalty.

That's not entirely true. There are some who won't be able to pay for the insurance and part of what was included in the plan was subsidies (on a sliding scale - those who make less get more help) to help those who looking for a plan in the new exchange system. What is offered in that exchange I'm not sure anyone can characterize because for one, it also doesn't phase until 2014, as it gives time for competitors to put together products to sell to people in the exchange.

I did not do a good job conveying my point with the second paragraph. My core point is that I, the consumer, should have the ability to choose how to “insure.” This bill removes that choice. My NASCAR example was demonstrating that a one-size-fit-all program is not the best option. The individual bears the risk so long as that individual is denied medical care or offered an inferior option. Unfortunately, or fortunately, we do not deny care, so the individual gains a benefit whether or not he has the ability or means to accept the risk (pay for the care). That issue is the root cause. Society has actually begun to self correct this issue. See AMANDA LITTELL, Can a Constitutional Right to Health Guarantee Universal Health Care Coverage or Improved Health Outcomes?: A Survey of Selected States, 35 Conn. L. Rev. 289. This comment tabulated an interesting difference of treatment at public v private healthcare providers. The author noted that the patrons of most public institutions had no insurance. Simply put, a consumer should be allowed to weigh the benefits or losses of insurance and make the decision. The government should not interfere with that choice.

I was just about to mention "denial of care" constraint but you already touched on that. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you are saying here, but to me it's more of a philosophical point than an operative one at this point. We do not deny care. Unless we are going to change that axiom (and we aren't) the individual can weigh the benefits and/or losses of insurance to their hearts content but they will not be denied care, and thus from a philosophcial standpoint, should also not be absolved of contribution. If not via insurance via penalty.

That would be changing my facts. Again, I am able to cover my costs. Why are you forcing me to buy “insurance”?

Could you really afford a liver transplant out of pocket Kyng? If you have a wife or a child that needs one could you afford that out of pocket? I'm honestly not trying to change your facts, I'm trying to speak to the entire scope. It's not just about YOU right here and right now. It's you and your family and the unforseen needs that most us could not cover. God forbid that you or yours should ever need such coverage but I honestly do not have $400,000 lying around for a transplant (and that's just surgery - that's doesn't include ANYTHING else). It's not about forcing you to buy insurance, it's about requiring you to contribute to a system to which you inherently have access. We do not deny care. If you truly could afford such a procedure, if you are well off enough that you could afford the costs of such unforseen procedures out of pocket, then it seems to me protesting a penalty that I believe is in the range of $700 to $2K (I have to check on that) seems somewhat out of place. Even one emergency room visit could exceed the cost of the penalty.

Your final point is well taken. I do not understand that to be the case but I am admittedly ignorant of the structure of the plans at this point. As far as bankruptcy, you could lose your house paying bills OR go bankrupt (mutually exclusive). Any bankruptcy lawyer that lets a client lose a house should be sued for malpractice. Yes, medical bills are the leading unsecured debt DISCHARGED in bankruptcy. And, society at large bears the costs, not just the insured…

I agree, which should serve as impetus to avoid having it happen. You don't have to be a proponent for Health Care Reform to conclude that by doing nothing we were still shouldering some of the fall out. In reference to the losing the house and bankruptcy - I was envisioning families who took out a second mortgage to pay the bills. Could one still retain their house in such a situation?

[Noble Work]

Mar 24, 2010 11:33:46 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Mar 24, 2010 11:01:22 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

I didn't ask for for your resume'

I asked you to tie this into nursing staff, bottle necking and no nursing jobs in the future.

And the reason why nursing is now understaffed and has been for a long time now is because there is a shortage of nurse educators. No one wants to TEACH nursing in the nursing school/programs. When this happens the nursing program has to limit the intake or number of nurses for the nursing program NOT because no one was interested in being a nurse. AND also nurses realized that they can make MORE just by being a nurse and NOT an educator. A lot of nurses bring in more money than the nurse educators in the nursing schools. AND,....you know what never mind.

Every time someone doesn't agree with you-you tell them to go do their research.

Have you ever thought about researching your research?

I still respect you brother, you are really deep and make people think outside the box.

Ha! Hey guy you are the one who stated your profession first not me. Now you're talking about lack of faculty which is TRUE but it's irrelevant to what I put forth. You stated and I quote "But under-staffing has everything to do with money especially in our current economy. In today's economy a lot of people take jobs because it pays the bills." If you would have said something along the lines you are writing now I would have agreed.

Again research Managed Health-care i.e. HMO's in the 90's. Research how the downsizing of hospitals with an emphasis on outpatient services became common place under the Clinton Administration. Make the connection that THIS is what caused the nursing shortage in the first place.

Explain why President Obama wouldn't back the FTC on zero years of data exclusivity for Pharmaceutical Companies?

Explain why Rep Waxman's bill HR1427 wasn't backed? Why wasn't he considered when the championing of Generic Drugs was spearheaded by him in 1984.

Why is Pres Obama touting Generic Drugs when that war was won 26 years ago?

Why did Rep Ashoo spearhead HR1548 which on paper gives Pharma companies 12 years of exclusivity?

Why doesn't Obama allow a ban on evergreening, which in effect gives Pharma companies lifetime of exclusivity?

Research my research you say? I'd gather your intent backfired.

I did not State my profession. I asked a question.

By the way
I Stopped reading your response right here...."Again research Managed Health-care...."

[Vudu_Prince]

Mar 24, 2010 12:08:21 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

Mar 24, 2010 11:33:46 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Ha! Hey guy you are the one who stated your profession first not me. Now you're talking about lack of faculty which is TRUE but it's irrelevant to what I put forth. You stated and I quote "But under-staffing has everything to do with money especially in our current economy. In today's economy a lot of people take jobs because it pays the bills." If you would have said something along the lines you are writing now I would have agreed.

Again research Managed Health-care i.e. HMO's in the 90's. Research how the downsizing of hospitals with an emphasis on outpatient services became common place under the Clinton Administration. Make the connection that THIS is what caused the nursing shortage in the first place.

Explain why President Obama wouldn't back the FTC on zero years of data exclusivity for Pharmaceutical Companies?

Explain why Rep Waxman's bill HR1427 wasn't backed? Why wasn't he considered when the championing of Generic Drugs was spearheaded by him in 1984.

Why is Pres Obama touting Generic Drugs when that war was won 26 years ago?

Why did Rep Ashoo spearhead HR1548 which on paper gives Pharma companies 12 years of exclusivity?

Why doesn't Obama allow a ban on evergreening, which in effect gives Pharma companies lifetime of exclusivity?

Research my research you say? I'd gather your intent backfired.

I did not State my profession. I asked a question.

By the way
I Stopped reading your response right here...."Again research Managed Health-care...."

Good stay ignorant and uninformed then.

[Oren Ishii]

*This is what happens when you're off the board for two days.*

Let's clear a few things up first:

I'm not saying that I'll NEVER EVER EVER need to use medical facilities. What I AM saying is that I can/will shoulder this cost myself because they are likely to be incidental as opposed to chronic. [It's a concept called self-insurance. The HSA option might be more familiar to most.]

I AM also saying that the treatments, therapies, & supplements I am most inclined to use are not now (and likely will not be) covered/subsidized by insurance. They never have been. It isn't likely that insurance companies will be expanding coverage options since people are now forced to buy insurance.

I am also saying that I mitigate my risk of major health problems by my lifestyle choices. Now, you can take that as you like it, but a non-smoking, h/w proportionate, moderately active vegetarian (with no current health problems) has a much lower risk of chronic/catastrophic health issues in the long term. That's not biased opinion; that is fact.

I am not saying that I'm opposed some sort of health care reform. Nor am I saying that this option isn't better than nothing for those who require coverage. I think it's wonderful that people with PEC, terminal illnesses, & parents of ill children don't have to fear loss of coverage.

The bottom line is, I see BROAD STROKES that paint us all with the same brush.

I understand that my way of life is considered "unusual" by a large segment of the populus; the plan cannot account for all variants. However, there is a growing contingency of socially liberal, fiscally conservative people who live this way.

Most of "us," given a choice, would choose to keep more money in our pockets & self-insure (there are fin. vehicles/choices involved that are beyond the scope of this post). This "plan" is not a choice; it offers a 'band-aid' on the healthcare problem in this country...and some of us are getting stuck under the tape.

Mar 23, 2010 9:27:49 GMT -5 Robelite said:

Kalani,

Your issues are valid indeed, and most people (even dems) have some issues with the bill...it's not perfect, but it's a hell of alot better than what we had which was NOTHING.

[T-Rex91]

Can anyone find a good concise summary of the changes the Senate is sending back to the House?

[Noble Work]

Mar 25, 2010 12:20:40 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Mar 24, 2010 12:08:21 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

I did not State my profession. I asked a question.

By the way
I Stopped reading your response right here...."Again research Managed Health-care...."

Good stay ignorant and uninformed then.

Ignorant? Huh, not by a long shot

uninformed? You say that like your words and "Research" has informed me or anybody for that matter. lol Like, what you said is Gospel....lololo. And we all need to roll with what you say because YOU said it.

Peace Out Homie.

[T-Rex91]

The House passed the fixes bill!

[ReignMan19]

Mar 26, 2010 12:14:40 GMT -5 T-Rex91 said:

The House passed the fixes bill!

yep.. what happened to the long hard fight that was promised... lol.. they liteally offered 2 or 3 amendments. I thought they had enough to lead well into the summer.

With the loans and grant policies that pass along with Barack about to sign this nuclear arms treaty with Russia... the Dems found their mojo (bout damn time)

[Vudu_Prince]

Mar 26, 2010 11:35:56 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

Mar 25, 2010 12:20:40 GMT -5 Vudu_Prince said:

Good stay ignorant and uninformed then.

Ignorant? Huh, not by a long shot

uninformed? You say that like your words and "Research" has informed me or anybody for that matter. lol Like, what you said is Gospel....lololo. And we all need to roll with what you say because YOU said it.

Peace Out Homie.

Gospel? This negro here. lol, I'm not about to argue with you about how YOU view me or how my words make YOU feel. lmao It is of no consequence. Now run along with your lukewarm hop-scotch indecisive rhetoric.

[Noble Work]

So now I'm a negro now?

As expected when one doesn't agree with you you are no stranger to slinging insults at them.

And to think I was really sincere about you making people "think".

[Julie Art]

Mar 26, 2010 13:42:29 GMT -5 Noble Work said:

So now I'm a negro now?

As expected when one doesn't agree with you you are no stranger to slinging insults at them.

And to think I was really sincere about you making people "think".

I took it as you only speaking for yourself, lol!

[Julie Art]

Mar 26, 2010 12:29:14 GMT -5 ReignMan19 said:

Mar 26, 2010 12:14:40 GMT -5 T-Rex91 said:

The House passed the fixes bill!

yep.. what happened to the long hard fight that was promised... lol.. they liteally offered 2 or 3 amendments. I thought they had enough to lead well into the summer.

With the loans and grant policies that pass along with Barack about to sign this nuclear arms treaty with Russia... the Dems found their mojo (bout damn time)

Yes sir!