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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 8:53:33 GMT -5
Ok, so over the past few days folks have commented either that pledging is wrong, isn't necessary and that its relevance is inversely proportional to age/maturity. Folks on the other side of the debate have said that it is utterly unacceptable for MIPers to front on their process. My questions (for those on all sides of the discourse) are thus:
1. Why do folks tell MIP neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Is there truly no shame in it? Isn't anyone who enters a situation acknowledging that they didn't pledge just setting themselves for mistreatment?
2. Some have said "folks will leave you alone if you carry yourself right." Doesn't this actually mean "if you can make folks believe that you probably got down, you stand a better chance of being treated well?"
3. Does overall carrying oneself in a manner calculated to throw people off of one's true Greek background amount to fronting? If so, is it acceptable?
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 9:18:45 GMT -5
1. Good question....why do they? Why are folks having to chance being mistreated (by their OWN frats or sorors,) if they acknowledge that the followed the proceess set down by their orgs' executive offices?
2. Does it? Again, why is it such an issue that you have to prove your initiation process to your org's members? Why is it that doing the work of your org is not enough?
3. Depends on which "manner" your speaking of. The only "manner" I care about an Alpha carrying himself in, is one of an ACTIVE, contributing member to our organization, and the things we are trying to accomplish in our communities and the country as a whole. Outside of that....none of those other things matter. I don't care how you got in.
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 9:21:45 GMT -5
Ok, so over the past few days folks have commented either that pledging is wrong, isn't necessary and that its relevance is inversely proportional to age/maturity. True. This has all be said by "folks". I would say that I do believe pledging (in it's most general PRACTICE, not in OO theory) to be something for the young. It is also not something to be done by adults after they cross, in the HOPES that they will somehow gain some credibility from it. Folks on the other side of the debate have said that it is utterly unacceptable for MIPers to front on their process. My questions (for those on all sides of the discourse) are thus: You are pretty charitable in your portrayal of the pro-pledgers". LOL!! I'll now answer your questions.... |
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 9:29:01 GMT -5
Ok, so over the past few days folks have commented either that pledging is wrong, isn't necessary and that its relevance is inversely proportional to age/maturity. True. This has all be said by "folks". I would say that I do believe pledging (in it's most general PRACTICE, not in OO theory) to be something for the young. It is also not something to be done by adults after they cross, in the HOPES that they will somehow gain some credibility from it.Folks on the other side of the debate have said that it is utterly unacceptable for MIPers to front on their process. My questions (for those on all sides of the discourse) are thus: You are pretty charitable in your portrayal of the pro-pledgers". LOL!! I'll now answer your questions.... Um-hum, um-hum!  |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 9:29:11 GMT -5
lol @ you answering all the questions with more questions. It's cool though, it be's like that sometime :-)
1. I think you may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Nobody "acknowledges" that they followed the processes set down by their HQ. Nobody. The best way to promote a stigma is to get the stigmatized to also buy into it. Even the most secure of MIPers don't go around admitting their paperness. Even members of the self-righteous anti-pledging lobby like to "talk shop" on occasion. (Makes me think I should bump an old thread)
2. The reason why it's such an issue...um, IDK. I didn't make the world, it was given to me. But to answer, the reason doing work for your org is not always enough is that while beneficial, it doesn't translate to all situations. If you're at a stepshow laughin and trippin and somebody mentions something that you just can't even fathom (let alone relate to), you replying with "well, I chaired the fundraising committee last semester" is just not relevant. You will end up on the outside of all situations other than business settings. Even if people aren't consciously mistreating you, they will begin to exclude you if for no other reason than you just don't get it
3. I understand that that's the only "manner" you're interested in and that you don't care how people came in. I even believe you. But rest assured that you are in the MINORITY. Unless new members only surround themselves with people like you (and with all due respect, I'm assuming that you're not as into the social scene as most neos would like to be), they will be confronted with the issue and they will have a decision to make.
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 9:30:27 GMT -5
@ Cam---good point re: the diff b/w PRACTICE and OO THEORY. Thanks.
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 9:34:37 GMT -5
1. Why do folks tell MIP neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Is there truly no shame in it? Isn't anyone who enters a situation acknowledging that they didn't pledge just setting themselves for mistreatment? Don't pro-pledgers also tell neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Shame is self inflicted and is directly related to how one feels about him/herself and how that self is in conflict/harmony with that persons ideas. I can walk my fat ass outside on the deck and if my 65 year old, white neighbor is outside....I ain't shame. Although some (not Leja) would say I should be. So that shame is projected on the neos by those those who had a different process. It's not inherent. I never lie and have never been mistreated. Maybe you should qualify your statement to mean Undergrads or specific organizations. 2. Some have said "folks will leave you alone if you carry yourself right." Doesn't this actually mean "if you can make folks believe that you probably got down, you stand a better chance of being treated well?" No, this means that if you carry yourself like a duly initiated member who knows his/her shyt then you are less likely to look like a fish in a barrell. Doesn't guarantee that you wont be tried but if you know what you're supposed to know then bring it. If someone plays the roll then they deserve to get got. Play pussy, get fucked. Just be yourself and stand on what you know. 3. Does overall carrying oneself in a manner calculated to throw people off of one's true Greek background amount to fronting? If so, is it acceptable? So, how should one who didn't "pledge the right way" carry him or herself? How should they look? I agree that putting yourself out there as having done something you didn't is misleading and shouldn't be done, i'm not sure about you image of a MIPer and how they carry themselves. Like I said, maybe you should qualify this and say Undergrad or a specific organization although this stuff can apply to grad members as well. Especially the part about not fronting. |
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 9:38:16 GMT -5
1. If they didn't "get down" then that is acknowledgement within itself. 2. A discussion at a step show is justification for disrespect of one of your own who didn't get down, huh? LOL! You are reaching....hard...for ways to justify your support of pledging, MIP +, etc. Leja and that's fine. Somewhat off-beat but that's what you and Bobby Brown have in common...it's your perrogative. 3. Oh, I think I'm in the majority of mature, common sense adults who are greek. Who are "people like me?" People who value a member's contribution more than a "process" that they may (or may NOT) have experienced? Which specific social scenes are you referring to? I don't travel the country going to step shows and stroll-offs, so maybe you got me there. I attend ug parties when the ug chapter that I advise sponsors one. Even then, I'm not there to get my groove on with 18-22 year olds. As I've said a million times before...this issue really drives some of you, and one day you will realize just how unimportant it is. As folks have been known to say....just keep on livin'! |
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Post by Iceman on Jul 7, 2009 9:45:26 GMT -5
1. Why do folks tell MIP neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Is there truly no shame in it? Isn't anyone who enters a situation acknowledging that they didn't pledge just setting themselves for mistreatment?
I would tell a MIP’er to be honest about their process #1 because Frontin’ brings up suspicion. In some circles, the equation looks like this: Suspicion + Exposed lies = DRAMA. Everybody in the Org isn’t of the age or level of maturity where they could catch you lying, shake their head, and just walk away to leave you right where you stand with no Dap. As we know, or those of us who have been there know, that type of behavior on the undergraduate circuit can be a whole different animal. Getting caught out there Frontin’ can produce much worse results than just not getting “gripped up”. I don’t think there should be any shame in being true to one’s self. If they chose not to pledge, it’s a decision they must live with. They may receive some mistreatment - But do they let it get them down & become sensitive or do they just brush it off and keep their head up?? It’s all up to that person’s temperament. Nobody said Greek life was gonna be easy whether you pledged or didn't pledge.
2. Some have said "folks will leave you alone if you carry yourself right." Doesn't this actually mean "if you can make folks believe that you probably got down, you stand a better chance of being treated well?"
I guess this depends on the type of member you come across. If you come across someone that is not a supporter of pledging, they will treat you the same way whether you pledged or just MIP’ed. Other Brothers who are big on pledging, may be more likely to treat another member more favorably if they came in through a pledge process. Just depends. The questionable part becomes “making someone believe you got down”. Not as easy as it sounds. I know Bros with “Bush Administration” type techniques to extract the truth, rationalize it, process it in a short matter of time, just to tell you “We don’t believe you, you need more people” lol
3. Does overall carrying oneself in a manner calculated to throw people off of one's true Greek background amount to fronting? If so, is it acceptable?
Yes, I would say it's still fronting. I would guess anyone perpetrating a phony persona (Greek or not, The Net or IRL) is carrying out fraudulent behavior. Is it acceptable? I don’t know. If it makes someone happy to hide behind a facade of lies, I guess that’s acceptable for them. Kinda sad to me, but whatever. I don’t like to judge – Just let people do them and the truth may or may not sort itself out eventually.
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 9:48:17 GMT -5
...And some wonder why folks outside of black greekdom refer to us as "gangs."
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 9:48:34 GMT -5
@ Cam, looks/sounds like we have the exact same perspective on the first issue. I didn't qualify the statements because I didn't intend to. I'm also speaking about grad members. I have been aware of this phenomenon (first or second hand) in all organizations (honestly, except Iota) (LoL @ you knowing that I would advocate walking your butt out on the deck. I approve  ) Like I had said, knowing your "ish" is not always possible if you didn't have any supplemental training outside of your MIP. Sometimes what the national HQ proclaims to be the accepted process doesn't teach enough to withstand a basic cookout question session. My question has always been "how can you stand on what you know if what you know is nothing?" Please understand, while Alpha may have the game figured out (and sincere CongratZ if you do) many orgs do NOT. Thousands of people cross every semester not knowing jack. Further, knowing your ish is not always the relevant issue. You can be deeper than whale booty and still not be familiar with some basic pledge precept or something. Rightly or wrongly, nobody ever says "man, that neo don't even know the pledge grip, but he shole is knowledgeable" LOL. Just sayin. On question 3, I have honestly not quite worked that out yet. I don't advocate for fronting and I also don't advocate for people taking ownership of derogatory terms if they don't feel they apply. Sorta like when Nupey asked you if you were paper and your answer was mad circumspect. Not because you were trying to lie or front, but I imagine you just didn't wanna be stuck in the pigeon hole that he had in mind. Am I right? |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 9:54:06 GMT -5
Whoa fam. Let's slow that up. Couple things: A. I'm not reaching. At all. You don't have to believe me, but I'm speaking from my observation, not making hypothetical correlations to support my point. B. My support of MIP+ doesn't need justification. The simple hot-mess state of Greek affairs is justification enough. C. If we were only talking about mature commonsense greek adults such as yourself (and MYself, as hard as that may be for you to believe) , this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Neos wouldn't come home relieved of their nalia after BBQs and there would be no such thing as getting "wrecked" A discussion at a step show is justification for disrespect of one of your own who didn't get down, huh? LOL! You are reaching....hard...for ways to justify your support of pledging, MIP +, etc. Leja and that's fine. Somewhat off-beat but that's what you and Bobby Brown have in common...it's your perrogative. |
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 10:05:52 GMT -5
So what we are assuming is that those who only do MIP don't know anything and that MIP doesn't have the necessary mechanisms available needed to insure that new initiates get the information they need?
With that, are we also going to say that everyone who goes through a pledge process has all the knowledge they are supposed to have?
I wont argue that MIP is deficient in some areas as that is a given but to claim or imply that any pledge process is more complete in it's ability to impart knowledge is just not true.
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 10:12:24 GMT -5
I (me, personally, Leja) am not assuming that. Frankly, I myself have MIPed a couple lines and they're just fine. Again, I (this kid right here) would never say someone who pledged (in the practical sense you mentioned) knows it all. We all know lots of know-nothing azz folks who stayed in the cut for months. But like I had told Robelite, if it were just mature rational people we had to worry about, this issue would be altogether moot. Unfortunately, the social side of Greek life is full of idiots who want to look for reasons to mistreat folks they find "different." I'm only asking whether the appropriate way to avoid the wrath of those people is to behave as though you're not "different."
Also, please explain this statement: "to claim or imply that any pledge process is more complete in it's ability to impart knowledge is just not true"
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Post by Cambist on Jul 7, 2009 10:14:36 GMT -5
Many have said that those who MIP don't know anything. In other cases, it was implied in their posts.
You've already addressed it.
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 10:16:08 GMT -5
was that your explanation of that last line? If so, I still don't get it.
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Post by Bathroom Model on Jul 7, 2009 10:31:12 GMT -5
This is the song that doesn't end. It goes and on and on my friend...
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 10:48:52 GMT -5
Whoa fam. Let's slow that up. Couple things: A. I'm not reaching. At all. You don't have to believe me, but I'm speaking from my observation, not making hypothetical correlations to support my point. B. My support of MIP+ doesn't need justification. The simple hot-mess state of Greek affairs is justification enough. C. If we were only talking about mature commonsense greek adults such as yourself (and MYself, as hard as that may be for you to believe) , this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Neos wouldn't come home relieved of their nalia after BBQs and there would be no such thing as getting "wrecked" A discussion at a step show is justification for disrespect of one of your own who didn't get down, huh? LOL! You are reaching....hard...for ways to justify your support of pledging, MIP +, etc. Leja and that's fine. Somewhat off-beat but that's what you and Bobby Brown have in common...it's your perrogative. 1. YOUR observations...EXACTLY!! So, all others who don't socialize with the faction of greeks who vehemently support MIP+ are out of touch? Really? 2. The hot-mess state of greek affairs are the result of not supporting an MIP+ initiation process? A process that for all intents and purposes, has been SANCTIONED by the members of the NPHC? Whether you like it or not, that is the case. 3. That's not the case because folks choose to measure their fellow frats and sorors by their processes rather than their contributions to the orgs themselves. YOU started this thread "Why you frontin'?" so you basically stated where you stand on this issue. Like Cam said earlier...you asked questions of both sides, but "you were pretty charitable in your portrayal of the pro-pledgers." What's foolish about it is, the "process" is the LEAST amount of time one spends pursuing membership. You could be initiated at 20 and live to be 80-90, and you really believe the value of your membership was in that time it took for you to be initiated? |
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Post by Troopa1911 on Jul 7, 2009 10:53:58 GMT -5
Blink...Blink
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 10:55:02 GMT -5
Rob, I'm not sure if you're actually addressing me or you're just saying "you" to make a point, but I don't need convincing. My observations, sir...are as relevant as any (perhaps moreso, but I ain't come here to argue, lol).
I've never said anything like this:
or this:
and I would never ever say anything like this:
so, I'll just assume you weren't necessarily speaking directly to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, because some things need to be cleared up in that case.
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 11:07:46 GMT -5
Leja,
THIS is what YOU posted above.
Whoa fam. Let's slow that up. Couple things:
A. I'm not reaching. At all. You don't have to believe me, but I'm speaking from my observation, not making hypothetical correlations to support my point.
B. My support of MIP+ doesn't need justification. The simple hot-mess state of Greek affairs is justification enough.
C. If we were only talking about mature commonsense greek adults such as yourself (and MYself, as hard as that may be for you to believe) , this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Neos wouldn't come home relieved of their nalia after BBQs and there would be no such thing as getting "wrecked"
Once again, YOU started this thread basically expressing your sentiments on the matter and that's fine. Just don't try to act as if you meant something other than that.
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 11:57:19 GMT -5
Ok, Rob. You obviously don't have the first clue as to why I started this thread. And that's cool. I appreciate your input anyway.
I kinda want to come at your neck for initially misunderstanding me, and then mis-paraphrasing me, and then after I clarified turning around and disagreeing with ME about what EYE meant. Alas, I'm sure it will be wasted on you.
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 12:13:33 GMT -5
Leja, Your posts speak for themselves. Stand by what you believe if that's what you believe, and stop trying to take issue with me because I simply present your words to you as you post them. Again...YOU started this because that's what you support, and you wanted those who think otherwise to offer their reasons why! What other reasons would you have for titling the thread "Why you frontin?"  That's all....nothing else! |
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Post by LejaOMG on Jul 7, 2009 13:19:20 GMT -5
{~~ knew it.
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Post by Robelite on Jul 7, 2009 13:31:23 GMT -5
<-------- So did he!
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Post by DamieQue™ on Jul 7, 2009 14:33:50 GMT -5
1. Why do folks tell MIP neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Is there truly no shame in it? Isn't anyone who enters a situation acknowledging that they didn't pledge just setting themselves for mistreatment?
I'm honestly not sure. In a perfect world it wouldn't matter. In the reality based community, we know that embracing the term is automatic stigma and not one that (as best I can tell) ANYONE wants. Given the reality (not the theory - but the reality) for all intents and purposes they are setting themselves up for mistreatment. There is a self-perpetuating culture out there that supports mistreatment - whether we choose to subscribe to it or not.
2. Some have said "folks will leave you alone if you carry yourself right." Doesn't this actually mean "if you can make folks believe that you probably got down, you stand a better chance of being treated well?"
Sadly in a way yes but it may not be tied to pleding persay cause even people that PLEDGE could find themselves in trouble if they don't carry themselves right (Grad or UG). When there's blood in the water you are either a shark or you're meat. It all depends on how you swim.
3. Does overall carrying oneself in a manner calculated to throw people off of one's true Greek background amount to fronting? If so, is it acceptable?
This one is a kind of "fielder's choice". I mean it is and it isn't. I mean if you aren't saying anything about what you did or didn't do - just carrying yourself like you did - one could argue that you aren't fronting, you just aren't being asked. On the other hand one could argue, you aren't being asked because you are carrying yourself like you did. I guess it all depends.
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Post by Troopa1911 on Jul 7, 2009 15:07:15 GMT -5
Everytime I see this thread I think of this song.
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Post by ClassyZeta on Jul 7, 2009 20:46:26 GMT -5
Ok, so over the past few days folks have commented either that pledging is wrong, isn't necessary and that its relevance is inversely proportional to age/maturity. Folks on the other side of the debate have said that it is utterly unacceptable for MIPers to front on their process. My questions (for those on all sides of the discourse) are thus: 1. Why do folks tell MIP neos to be honest about their lack of a process? Is there truly no shame in it? Isn't anyone who enters a situation acknowledging that they didn't pledge just setting themselves for mistreatment? Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are going to be mistreated. I tell people once you accept you, others will too but I'm not positive that is true, so now i just speak for myself. It baffles me that some will willingly support a ghost but get down right ignorant with a MIP'ed member.  2. Some have said "folks will leave you alone if you carry yourself right." Doesn't this actually mean "if you can make folks believe that you probably got down, you stand a better chance of being treated well?" No for me it meant, just be happy with who you are....it's really not that deep to me or any sorors close to me. I know plenty of hard working, MIP'ed sorors doing their thing and holding their own. But if you're hung up on "what you missed" "what this means" etc. it hinders your overall view IMO.
Some people are going to accept you, and some wont. Stop focusing on those that don't and get with the ones who do. <--My new advice.3. Does overall carrying oneself in a manner calculated to throw people off of one's true Greek background amount to fronting? If so, is it acceptable? I dunno...telling people you "crossed" when your feet met no heat, referring to your show as a "probate" when you were already a member, line names and numbers & using LS and LB when there was no line, etc. seems misleading to ME. But i have heard the argument that it no longer means what it used to and it's more like a figure of speech  So apparently it is acceptable to most. I think it comes from a basic misunderstanding of what pledging is and isn't. All too often people have the view that if you took wood/cooked a few meals/learned something not from MIP/couldn't get on facebook/missed a party etc. that that means they were all the way live. Not so. Now that MIP is almost 20 years old, most are getting the R.Kelly, chopped and screwed, B-more club remix and donning it the same. |
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Post by ClassyZeta on Jul 7, 2009 20:50:27 GMT -5
I (me, personally, Leja) am not assuming that. Frankly, I myself have MIPed a couple lines and they're just fine. Again, I (this kid right here) would never say someone who pledged (in the practical sense you mentioned) knows it all. We all know lots of know-nothing azz folks who stayed in the cut for months. But like I had told Robelite, if it were just mature rational people we had to worry about, this issue would be altogether moot. Unfortunately, the social side of Greek life is full of idiots who want to look for reasons to mistreat folks they find "different." I'm only asking whether the appropriate way to avoid the wrath of those people is to behave as though you're not "different." Also, please explain this statement: "to claim or imply that any pledge process is more complete in it's ability to impart knowledge is just not true" If I had read the posts first I could have bypassed my mini-novel and just replied "ditto" to this one. |
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Post by No Screen Name on Jul 7, 2009 20:56:05 GMT -5
*SIGH*... It's all such a MESS.  |
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)
So apparently it is acceptable to most. 
