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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 30, 2008 21:54:02 GMT -5
Yeah definitely, the stuff in my last post is very widely accepted within most mainline denominations. Denominations within Protestantism (i.e. Christian non Catholic) usually differ by Founder and small tenets i.e. baptism, ordination, role of women. Most are largely similar with some differences on formula for salvation (Baptism in Jesus' name Only vs. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
I'm not too big on Denominations myself...we all see through a dark glass and nobody OWNS Jesus.
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Post by lpitd16 on Mar 31, 2008 17:03:59 GMT -5
"As for his father Daddy King... he did NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT have to abide by any denominational rules. The Baptist tradition is one that gives each church complete AUTONOMY. Each church is run from the INSIDE, not the outside like the Methodist tradition for example where Bishops control who goes where. There are universal tenets i.e. full water immersion, but each church is owned by itself and a board of directors governs it. The Baptist Denomination CANNOT step in and enforce anything, because they don't own the building...lol."
Each individual Baptist Church has what is known as a Constitution. Said document is compiled by a committee or "board of directors" and voted upon by the entire body at the time the church is "founded". This working document may be amended by a vote of active members. Most Baptist churches, INCLUDING the one pastored by Rev. M.L. King, Sr. at the time M.L. King, Jr. was ordained, are members of a District, Congress, and Convention whose precepts they are beholden to.
You have yet to provide any sound evidence to support your claims that 1.) Dr. King was unduly ordained; and 2.)Daddy King compromised his postition as Pastor in ordaining him.
Evidence please.
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 31, 2008 17:23:15 GMT -5
none needed... search and ye shall find  King's theology is well documented... *Shrugs* |
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Post by Cambist on Mar 31, 2008 21:01:31 GMT -5
You know...I have read a lot of Kings writings and I would have to PARTIALLY agree with Jay.
The Reverend Brother Pastor Deacon Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. carried some theological positions that many would believe to be against the "Will of God".
Personally, I don't like to get into these arguments because they all turn on a hairpin interpretation of scripture and because I do not believe Biblical Inerrancy, the discussion would end in a stalemate.
In any event, the manner in which Dr. King was "ordained" is not important. Hayle, the FACT that he was ordained is not important. He was placed here for a reason and he accomplished that. Was he "The Anti-Christ?" I'm sure some would love to believe that.
My point is this....we all agree that neither sitting in church all day nor screaming Jesus or Yashua (or however you want to spell it) every five minutes or calling out to God throughout the day will anymore make you a Christian than spending all of your time at the soup kitchen serving or helping the sick.
In the end, YOU have to account for YOUR life and how you impacted others. That's what I believe.....and I don't care what you (general) think about that. Will you be standing there, in some great white place before a golden throne surrounded by angels with white wings and listening to the angelic choir sing? I don't know. It doesn't matter.
If you believe that by going to church, singing in the choir, abstaining from pre-marital sex, alcohol, drugs, profanity, etc...that you can make it into God's favor then go ahead. More power to you. I'll help you any way I can.
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 31, 2008 21:52:25 GMT -5
Whether he was a Christian or not does not matter to me. I'm not one of these people who believe that Christians have the sole key to heaven and no one else can enter.
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Post by lpitd16 on Mar 31, 2008 22:18:41 GMT -5
none needed... search and ye shall find King's theology is well documented... *Shrugs* I was asking for evidence of King's ordination being a farce. I take it you don't have any. That's cool, too. |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:14:33 GMT -5
Applies to most, not all........... Want the proof about MLK, it's out there....... "King's life and doctrine both fall far short of Biblical teaching." They are actually Anti-christian Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." Truth  ? The first paragraph contradicts Romans 3:23...which are you asserting is truth? Either we all fall short or we dont. Please explain. Why you say "most but not all"? |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:15:46 GMT -5
none needed... search and ye shall find King's theology is well documented... *Shrugs* ? If you have the information, why not share it? I never understood why some of yall do that...it undermines your credibility...  *shrug* |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:19:25 GMT -5
"As for his father Daddy King... he did NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT have to abide by any denominational rules. The Baptist tradition is one that gives each church complete AUTONOMY. Each church is run from the INSIDE, not the outside like the Methodist tradition for example where Bishops control who goes where. There are universal tenets i.e. full water immersion, but each church is owned by itself and a board of directors governs it. The Baptist Denomination CANNOT step in and enforce anything, because they don't own the building...lol." Each individual Baptist Church has what is known as a Constitution. Said document is compiled by a committee or "board of directors" and voted upon by the entire body at the time the church is "founded". This working document may be amended by a vote of active members. Most Baptist churches, INCLUDING the one pastored by Rev. M.L. King, Sr. at the time M.L. King, Jr. was ordained, are members of a District, Congress, and Convention whose precepts they are beholden to. You have yet to provide any sound evidence to support your claims that 1.) Dr. King was unduly ordained; and 2.)Daddy King compromised his postition as Pastor in ordaining him. Evidence please. I am a member of a Baptist church and we don't operate like that....we actually operate more like a non-denominational church...we are Baptist by "tradition" but don't really have all the Baptist "rules" and "practices". (i.e. don't vote on members to join) |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 0:22:15 GMT -5
You know...I have read a lot of Kings writings and I would have to PARTIALLY agree with Jay. The Reverend Brother Pastor Deacon Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. carried some theological positions that many would believe to be against the "Will of God". Personally, I don't like to get into these arguments because they all turn on a hairpin interpretation of scripture and because I do not believe Biblical Inerrancy, the discussion would end in a stalemate. In any event, the manner in which Dr. King was "ordained" is not important. Hayle, the FACT that he was ordained is not important. He was placed here for a reason and he accomplished that. Was he "The Anti-Christ?" I'm sure some would love to believe that. My point is this....we all agree that neither sitting in church all day nor screaming Jesus or Yashua (or however you want to spell it) every five minutes or calling out to God throughout the day will anymore make you a Christian than spending all of your time at the soup kitchen serving or helping the sick. In the end, YOU have to account for YOUR life and how you impacted others. That's what I believe.....and I don't care what you (general) think about that. Will you be standing there, in some great white place before a golden throne surrounded by angels with white wings and listening to the angelic choir sing? I don't know. It doesn't matter. If you believe that by going to church, singing in the choir, abstaining from pre-marital sex, alcohol, drugs, profanity, etc...that you can make it into God's favor then go ahead. More power to you. I'll help you any way I can. *Nods to Cam* ;D Im with you. My mother always told me (and it stuck), "You know? A WHOLE lotta people will be AWFULLY surprised when Judgment Day comes. Those who THOUGHT they would be sitting high wont, and those that everyone thought wouldnt be in Heaven will. Some people will be in for a RUDE awakening. Worry about your own salvation." |
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Post by lpitd16 on Apr 1, 2008 6:41:29 GMT -5
Soror Priss,
I read your post. I am interested in learning how things are done in other parts of the country. Indulge me, if you will. Does your church have a Constitution?
If not, are you all "Baptist" in name/tradition only? What is in place to ensure that the Baptist doctrine is followed, adhered to? As in, what prevents the church from following a more Methodist/COGIC/Apostolic, etc., doctrine?
Do you all fellowship with "Sister" Churches? If you all do, how do you all decide which churches are in deed "Sister" Churches?
We don't vote on new members anymore. The Invitation to Life is extended. If a person believes the Spirit of God is moving them, they come to the altar and are then led to an area where Romans 10 is shared with them (in its entirety). They confess their belief in Jesus, the Christ. They then complete "New Members Class". Upon their completion of said class, the new member is then extended the "Right Hand of Fellowship".
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 1, 2008 8:36:58 GMT -5
@ Priss.... the reason I didn't offer any "proof" of King's writings is that they are all over the internet... if you google Martin Luther King Crozer Papers, a million will come up. Its not a secret...lol. Plus I didn't feel like doing any research cuz I've been on Westlaw all day. lpitd16...Priss' post is evidence of the autonomy of the Baptist Church...EACH church can do whatever they want basically and all are voluntarily holding to the tenets of the Baptist denomination mainly because that is what they believe. Priss' pastor could choose to do whatever he wants without fear of losing the Baptist name. Any correction comes from WITHIN that particular church body... If someone goes out to left field the redress is usually for their board to have them put out and their Baptist sister churches will cease fellowship with them. Oh and I never claimed that King's ordination was a "farce" per se... I'd just call it nepotism Oh and one more thing...how in the world is your screen name pronounced ....if its meant to be pronounced at all...lol...I've been reading it over and over again and I have no idea. |
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Post by lpitd16 on Apr 1, 2008 17:41:50 GMT -5
^^^That's right: If someone goes off to the left of the precepts set-up by said church, then there is recourse (be it by the board, or district/congress/convention). The Pastor cannot just ordain folks as he/ she sees fit. AND if he/she somehow does, God will reveal the truth. Have you ever been to the Ordination service of a Baptist minister? "Oh and I never claimed that King's ordination was a "farce" per se... I'd just call it nepotism " Are you studying to be a lawyer? Any evidence of said "nepotism"? "Oh and one more thing...how in the world is your screen name pronounced ....if its meant to be pronounced at all...lol...I've been reading it over and over again and I have no idea."[/quote] It isn't pronounced. LPITD: Last Pea in the Dish; 16: Line Number. See how easy that was? |
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 1, 2008 22:14:55 GMT -5
^^^That's right: If someone goes off to the left of the precepts set-up by said church, then there is recourse (be it by the board, or district/congress/convention). The Pastor cannot just ordain folks as he/ she sees fit. AND if he/she somehow does, God will reveal the truth.How do you know God will reveal the truth??? Is it your contention that EVERY church has a Pastor that is in the will of God? Certainly not! Yes... a number of times actually. One of my mentors is a Baptist Preacher (very high up actually) and I've read Baptist polity and am very familiar with the Baptist tradition and practices. Nope, I'm already a lawyer passed the bar and all  ...and the evidence for the nepotism is "Res Ipsa Loquitor"... the thing speaks for itself! |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 22:19:04 GMT -5
Soror Priss, I read your post. I am interested in learning how things are done in other parts of the country. Indulge me, if you will. Does your church have a Constitution? If not, are you all "Baptist" in name/tradition only? What is in place to ensure that the Baptist doctrine is followed, adhered to? As in, what prevents the church from following a more Methodist/COGIC/Apostolic, etc., doctrine? Do you all fellowship with "Sister" Churches? If you all do, how do you all decide which churches are in deed "Sister" Churches? We don't vote on new members anymore. The Invitation to Life is extended. If a person believes the Spirit of God is moving them, they come to the altar and are then led to an area where Romans 10 is shared with them (in its entirety). They confess their belief in Jesus, the Christ. They then complete "New Members Class". Upon their completion of said class, the new member is then extended the "Right Hand of Fellowship".  hi Soror *waves* We do "new membership" the same way. Alter call, led off, then new member orientation. I didnt grow up Baptist so I was expecting the "stereotype" (which kept me from joining for almost a year...) but as far as I can tell, it runs alot like the non-denom church I grew up in. We have a church covenant which are the obligations of church membership...each obligation has a scriptural reference point. However, in NMO, it was stressed that to be a member you only need be born again and give at least .01 per year....and that's just a means of keeping up with folks for the rolls/administrative reasons. Basically, there is salvation//baptism, duties to the church, duties in personal living, duties to fellow members. I dont know that there is a way to ensure that anything is adhered to... either you do or you dont. I dont really know what you mean by "baptist doctrine"...do you mean a Constitution? The difference b/n us and other religions are what we believe. Not all religions believe or practice the same things. I cant sum it all up in a post but I'll try: Unlike some faiths/religions/etc: 1.T he Establishment of the church: Our origin is found in the teachings of Christ. The Church was not established by man. It was established by the Lord. 2. Salvation by Grace, repentance and faith. Not just assent of the mind but also from the heart. 3. The Trinity (and of course that Jesus is the Son of God 4. Baptism is not essential for salvation but rather that believers are baptized BECAUSE they are saved, not TO BE saved. However, baptism requires a saved person, a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, the proper purpose (to show salvation) and immersion. 5. Observance of Communion 6. A New Testament church (1. have the right founder--Jesus; 2. founded where Christ lived; 3. founded during the earthly ministry of Jesus; 4. teach the doctrines the Lord gave his church in the NT) The church would never follow any other denomination b/c not all denominations following the above. I say that my church is more Baptist in name rather than practice b/c while it is the oldest pre-dom black church in the area and has alot of history, the Church has not fallen victim to old practices and ways for the sake of just doing things out of habit, but rather it's spirit filled and spirit led; a NT church. I dont even call myself "Baptist". I am a Christian (striving). Hope that answers some of your questions |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 1, 2008 22:22:10 GMT -5
@ Priss.... the reason I didn't offer any "proof" of King's writings is that they are all over the internet... if you google Martin Luther King Crozer Papers, a million will come up. Its not a secret...lol. Plus I didn't feel like doing any research cuz I've been on Westlaw all day. Eh...I dont believe everything I read or hear.....esp. stuff found on the internet....that's ok! LOL! That's like telling me to go to Wikipedia as a reliable source...nuh uh...that is not "evidence" to me! LOL |
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 1, 2008 22:31:21 GMT -5
lol...naw...look on www.jstor.org they have pretty much everything ever written on there and its extremely reliable. Why didn't anybody come at Cam when he said that King's theology was untraditional??? how come when the boy says it everybody acks (yes I meant acks) like I said he was a martian or something...lol |
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Post by Search1906 on Apr 2, 2008 10:14:28 GMT -5
Jay you are an easy target man. Every site needs a resident scapegoat. LOL
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 2, 2008 10:34:35 GMT -5
lol...naw...look on www.jstor.org they have pretty much everything ever written on there and its extremely reliable. Why didn't anybody come at Cam when he said that King's theology was untraditional??? how come when the boy says it everybody acks (yes I meant acks) like I said he was a martian or something...lol ROFLMAO!!! I guess because you make a lot of bold "AHA I got the trouf" statements rather than posing them as your opinion and follow with "its the truth. Google it"....*shrug* Iono....LOL Nah, I only asked you b/c of your response to look it up with LPITD asked for more info  |
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 2, 2008 10:35:42 GMT -5
yeah man...I'm the bucktoof nappy headed step-child in this joint  |
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 2, 2008 10:44:13 GMT -5
Dont forget smelly! P-U!! LOL |
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Post by Search1906 on Apr 2, 2008 11:48:37 GMT -5
:smh: LOL
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 2, 2008 13:39:17 GMT -5
lol...you throwing salt in the wound now Priss
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Post by Search1906 on Apr 2, 2008 14:44:17 GMT -5
Jay you can't win for losing brotha. LOL
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Post by lpitd16 on Apr 2, 2008 18:22:22 GMT -5
:-) Hey Soror *waves back*
Thank you for your in-depth response. These things that you listed are all apart of the
Baptist Doctrine:
"1.T he Establishment of the church: Our origin is found in the teachings of Christ. The Church was not established by man. It was established by the Lord.
2. Salvation by Grace, repentance and faith. Not just assent of the mind but also from the heart.
3. The Trinity (and of course that Jesus is the Son of God
4. Baptism is not essential for salvation but rather that believers are baptized BECAUSE they are saved, not TO BE saved. However, baptism requires a saved person, a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, the proper purpose (to show salvation) and immersion.
5. Observance of Communion"
6. A New Testament church (1. have the right founder--Jesus; 2. founded where Christ lived; 3. founded during the earthly ministry of Jesus; 4. teach the doctrines the Lord gave his church in the NT).
@jay
"How do you know God will reveal the truth??? Is it your contention that EVERY church has a Pastor that is in the will of God? Certainly not!"
How do I know God will reveal the truth? I know because God is Truth. His word won't return unto Him void. I do not contend that EVERY church (not even some Baptist churches) has a Pastor that is in the will of God. Be that as it may, God's will, will be done.
"I'm already a lawyer passed the bar and all" CONGRATULATIONS!!! That is a wonderful accomplishment.
"Why didn't anybody come at Cam when he said that King's theology was untraditional??? how come when the boy says it everybody acks (yes I meant acks) like I said he was a martian or something...lol"
Initially, I asked a question of denounced about his comments regarding King's ordination. You added your 2 cents.
"yeah man...I'm the bucktoof nappy headed step-child in this joint" Don't forget to add cross-eyed! :-)
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Post by denounced on Apr 2, 2008 18:42:57 GMT -5
Did I answer your question sufficiently? If not, you can commune with the spirit of Harriet Tubman, she may be able to give you some insight.
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Post by jay0heavenly on Apr 2, 2008 19:21:59 GMT -5
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Post by THE emPRISS on Apr 3, 2008 12:47:12 GMT -5
ROFLMAO!!
NOW you have to post a picture Jay! LOL! You are up to bucktooth, redheaded, smelly and cross eyed...I need to see this one! LOL
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?
...and the evidence for the nepotism is "Res Ipsa Loquitor"... the thing speaks for itself!
hi Soror *waves*
