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Post by Nupey on Mar 11, 2008 12:24:43 GMT -5
Well, since Suave , Damie, and Myself are on at the same time, I thought it would be a good time to run the debate....
Of course, I'll say M.Jordan was the greatest ever....
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 11, 2008 15:36:44 GMT -5
As for RIGHT NOW that argument holds water, but we have YET to see Kobe and The King James himself in their groove.
When Kobe's career is over, he'll finish with 5 rings and ZERO holes in his game AND the competition that he plays against night in and night out is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than what MJ faced. Imagine Kobe going against Craig Ehlo or Marc Price... that would get SUPER ugly...lol.
People love MJ and think that there will never be anyone like him, but the reality is, he had no left hand, couldn't shoot from 3 and got a call every time someone on the other team blew their breath on him...lol. IMO Kobes is a better all around player and he's gonna be collecting rings these next couple years like stamps...lol.
And I grew up a MJ wannabee singing " I wanna be I wanna be I wanna be like Mike! lol.
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 11, 2008 16:11:50 GMT -5
I think we've seen the best of Kobe. He can add more accomplishments, but I don't think he's going to add any more skills, and I don't think he'll ever be considered better than Jordan. Lebron, however, has a chance...and this is coming from the biggest MJ supporter, lol.
But as of right now, its MJ hands down.
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Post by Southie on Mar 11, 2008 16:46:57 GMT -5
<<from the Chi...will say M. Jordan
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Post by DamieQue™ on Mar 11, 2008 16:54:59 GMT -5
I agree with what Cold said. Jordan eventually became a good jump shooter. When he first came into the league - not at all. He was all drive and dunks.
When you consider the fact that he won 6 championships with no dominant center on any of these teams... he's gotta get the nod.
Kobe developed faster because he made the jump straight to the league, but I think he has peaked at this point. He doesn't have another bag of tricks to pull out of his pocket - and he's not ever going to win a championship without a dominant big man.
Lebron however, developed even faster than Kobe. Honestly - I know everyone says Kobe is a better player, but I think that's only because he plays defense and his jumpshot has been more consistent. Lebron has obviously worked on his jumpshot this past summer, he is much stronger than Kobe, a much better court general, makes better decisions with the ball (at his age right now Kobe was still trying to make his highlight reel), is a better passer, and has the skills to match his killer instinct.
I think Kobe always had the killer instinct, but his skills had to catch up. He's also a better floor general now than before, but I still think Lebron is better. If I had money to bet, I would say that James is the most likely candidate to dethrone Jordan as greatest of all time. Dude is just WAY ahead of the curve on this one.
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Bigs
OOA pledge
Posts: 236
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Post by Bigs on Mar 11, 2008 16:55:11 GMT -5
I think King James will be considered the best if he can grab 5 titles within 12 years or so..... He's already proven he can take an average team and elevate them to the finals...
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 11, 2008 16:55:29 GMT -5
Jay I am going to have to disagree with you. Michael played and put up numbers when you could hand check, bump, grind, clothesline and all that. He was averaging well over thirty for years when teams beat the hell out of you. Now days the rules have been tweaks to promote offense where you can't breath on anyone or its a foul. Think about it...this is the case and only one guy is scoring over thirty!!!!!
The next thing is Back in the 80's and 90's you didn't have 2-3 high schoolers taking up spots on the bench so the roster was deeper with players who knew how to play thus the teams were better. Now you have a whole bunch of sorry or mediocre teams with only a few "good" teams and even they are suspect.
Don't sleep on Mark Price or Craig Ehlo those cats could hoop. Hell what do you think Kobe would do against the Bad Boy Pistons? He couldn't beat the new age Pistons going 1 on 5 with Shaq on his squad. Think about the Showtime Lakers and the Celtic teams. Hell the old New York Knick teams and Houston Rockets Squads not to mention the stacked Seattle and Portland teams. These teams were all good together. How about the old Phoenix Suns teams or the Atlanta Hawks. Even the Bucks and Cavs were good year in and out back in the day. Now days you have the Spurs, Pistons, Celtics, LAkers and Mavs as legit good teams with most everyone else either mediocre or sucking. The league is not what it was and the players top to bottom are not as good talentwise.
As for the best player ever its MJ because he did everything Kobe and Lebron are trying to emulate first. Couple that with his teams being the only team in years not to have a dominant center and win the championship not once but six times. He arguably could have won 9 straight titles barring injury and if he didn't retire for two years and would have played the '99 season. Who else can claim that. If that isn't enough he gave the Nets and Bucks 40+ point each after he turned 40 years so that tells you something. Hands down MJ is the best pound for pound player to ever play.
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Post by suavesince1911 on Mar 11, 2008 18:27:11 GMT -5
First of all, Kobe is not on Jordan's level when it comes to overall supremacy. Jordan was a much better shooter: he shot over 50% multiple times which is an accomplishment Kobe has yet to reach. What's funny is that for years Kobe had Shaq to draw the defensive heat, yet, he still never approached 50% fg shooting.
Defensively, Jordan was better. Jordan was a better on-the-ball defender (who was in a class with Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief etc). Jordan was a better shot-blocker. He was more explosive going towards the basket, and I think his will was greater than Kobe's.
As for Jordan being "the greatest," Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, and perhaps Abdul-Jabbar can all make a case for being better than Jordan depending on your criteria.
I would personally take all of them over MJ. When it comes to "will to win" NOBODY wanted it more than Russell -- you're decieving yourself if you think Jordan's will is anywhere on par. Russell's team won 55 straight games in college and two national championships -- all when Russell was the star of the team. When Jordan was the star of the Tarheels they FAILED to reach the championship game even though in his final two seasons his team boasted a #1 and #2 seed. In overall completeness and supremacy, Wilt and Oscar were BETTER than MJ. In overall dominance, Wilt reached achievements that would make Jordan turn green with envy: 50.4 ppg, leading the league in assists, fg%, rebounding (relative to his peers), mpg, etc.
In terms of taking poor teams and making them contenders, Wilt and Bird had an immediate impact on their squads. Jordan couldn't get his team to win more games than they lost until Pippen came along.
Like I said, depending on the criteria, Jordan comes up short in many areas, but his fans don't want to admit it. All of this "Jordan is the greatest" talk is a bunch of media hype that fans have grown to accept because they have FAILED to do the research, and put his accomplishments into perspective. They are indeed ignorant, and act like someone has committed blasphemy if someone doesn't agree that he is "the greatest."
People say that Jordan played better competition than players of the past, which makes his accomplishments "more impressive." They say that athletes get "better over time." Well, in the year 2048 the players will be more athletic and BETTER, and according to this logic ,the fans in that timeframe can rightfully say that Jordan would not be as dominant because athleticism and competition gradually improve over time. In other words, every argument we used against players of the past (due to their inferior athleticism and competition) will be used against Jordan so don't be surprised when you hear some young punk kid speak the very foolishness you spoke.
Nupey, you got your wish. I have stated my opinion, and I am not going to go back and forth anymore with a bunch of Jordan-radicals who refuse to consider the opposing view to Jordan's "greatest of all time" acclaim. I used to believe he was, but my eyes have been opened, and I have done the research to confirm that he is NOT the greatest and several all-time greats can make an even greater claim to being better.
Goodbye and may the peace be with you.
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 12, 2008 10:02:41 GMT -5
I agree with Cold and Damie insomuch that we've seen Kobe's "bag of tricks". What we haven't seen YET is MVP trophy's and more importantly Championship MVP's which he'll get both this and next year.
<====Predicts Lakers as Champs for this and next year.
Then Kobe will have 5 Rings, MVP's and in my eyes BETTER skills than his airness. Quick, someone name a whole in Kobe's game....
<====Waits
Exactly there are none.
As for Lebrezee...its only a matter of time before people forget MJ wore #23 and King James is the unanimous G.O.A.T. He's a kid right now doing stuff that MJ could only dream of...not to mention he has practically no supporting cast.
I used to be DIE HARD MJ all day every day, but just look at his tapes, his competition etc. and you'll see that even though he was hands down the greatest of his time, he would be just among the best in this year's NBA. Lets look at the best SG's from MJ's time.
The 1993 All-Star Shooting Guards
1. Dan Majerle
2. Clyde Drexler
3. Terry Porter
4. MJ
5. Joe Dumars
Compare them to Kobe, Lebron, AI, D Wade, T-Mac, Joe Johnson... Can you imagine T-Mac playing against Thunder Dan Marjerle? How bout AI verses Terry Porter? He would have 90 on him...lol. Hands down the competition then was decent, but NO WHERE NEAR like it is today.
The end!
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 12, 2008 10:04:22 GMT -5
Oh and @ Searchin... the hand check rule is definitely a good point, but considering MJ got the MJ treatment from refs (i.e. EVERY call) , I think it kinda cancels it out...lol
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 12, 2008 10:05:14 GMT -5
@ JAy Spoken like a true Knicks fan. By the way when are they installing the MJ statue at the Garden. You know he owned you all in your own building right? LOL
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 12, 2008 10:10:14 GMT -5
Hold up a lot of people would agree that until this 19 game winning streak McGrady has been the Tin man. Dude has never won a 1st round playoff game so lets not get it twisted.
Don't sleep on Drexler and Dumars either.
I will give you Majerle even though he was above average before the back injury made him a jump shooter.
And for the record Lebron is not a shooting guard. If you want to go there then we have to bring Dominique and Scottie Pippen into the discussion.
Oh and in terms of MVP awards...nowdays they don't mean ish after Steve Nash won 2 in a row and Dirk won one last year only to lay an egg in the playoff after winning 60+ games and being manhandled by Stephen Jackson who is 4-5 inches shorter than him.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Mar 12, 2008 10:13:26 GMT -5
More athletic - less skilled.
Bird was not much of an athlete but I dare anyone to point to a better shooter in the league right now. Kevin McHale wasn't much to watch in terms of artistry, but show me someone with better post moves right now. Maybe Tim Duncan - that's about it.
The game is more athletic - in some aspects, but it's also more European and they play zones now. The game is softer now if you ask me. The beatings that Shaquille took as young player, Pau Gosol would not survive.
Iverson would smoke most of the guards of Jordan's era... but then he smokes most of the guards of his own era so that should not be a surprise.
And honestly - even though we're talking about shooting guards we're still comparing apples and oranges. Terry Porter could not guard Iverson in the open court. We know this. No one can. But Iverson could NOT have defended Porter either. He was too big and strong for Iverson. Same thing with Dan Majerle and T-Mac. No way Dan guards T-Mac. T-Mac could open a can of 40 points and 10 assists on Dan everytime he stepped on the court. But he couldn't defend a Dan Majerle. Majerles nickname was "Thunder" for a reason. Joe Dumars and Clyde Drexler I don't even need to address.
I think the athleticism of the current NBA is superior to MJ's era - hand's down. But the skill level is inferior in every way to MJ's era. I don't think there's even any question about it.
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 12, 2008 10:21:20 GMT -5
@ Searchin lol @ "Spoken like a Knicks fan" I guess I can't hide the orange and blue bias when I type  . lol. You gotta point that Lebreezee ain't a 2Guard per se, but he basically plays the 1,2 and 3 on O and on D he grabs the 3 man usually, so in my eyes, the man can be a 2G. And you can bring Scottie and Nique in the conversation if you want, Heck, you can even throw in Chocolate Thunder if you want! LOL....the comp now is 2X what it was... <===Sees your Scottie and Dominique <===Raises you Melo and Amare Stoudamire  Joe D was solid, (especially on defense) and Clyde the Gliggidy Glyde Drexler was too, but neither would be superstars in today's league. And my point about the MVP's was just to say that a lot of people (myself included) use MVP's and rings to substantiate a players worth. If Kobe ends up with 7 Rings and 5 MVP's nobody could use that as a point of why MJ is purportedly better. |
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Post by jay0heavenly on Mar 12, 2008 10:25:50 GMT -5
@ Damie... I agree...the game has changed and in some ways for the worse... I was watching the Lakers game last night ( I have NBA League Pass...lol) and Kobe fouled someone and GOT A PIECE OF THE BALL, BEFORE he hit the guy's body and got a flagrant for it!?
Man, that might not have even been a foul in the Late 80's...lol... for that reason the NBA did get a little soft. Man I still remember being a little kid watching the 89,90 showdowns between the Bulls and Pistons...them dudes WERE NOT PLAYING AROUND...if you went to the whole, you will pay...bottom line.
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 12, 2008 10:38:12 GMT -5
I think Kobe has some holes in his game...but they are all mental. Physically, he can do anything. But he doesn't have the understanding of the game that MJ did. In my opinion, he still hasn't mastered when to get his teammates involved vs. when to try to take over. He's getting better at it. And I think he settles too often for bad shots.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Mar 12, 2008 10:51:43 GMT -5
I kind of agree and disagree with Cold. Kobe doesn't have any holes in his game at this point (at least not to me).
His perimeter game is solid, he can drive to the hole, he takes inifintely better shots now than he did his first couple of seasons, and he seems like he is more focused on winning than he is on creating highlights.
Where I agree with Cold is that Kobe's room for improvement are all mental. He still doesn't quite have that 6th sense to know when to get his team mates involved and when to take over - he's infinitely better at it now than he was as a young player - but he's still not at the pinnacle yet.
Physically Jordan has no edge on Kobe. They were equally quick, equally athletic, equally unstoppable. Kobe whines more about calls, but where the two are truly separate is in 2 categories
Jordan won without a dominant center
Jordan knew when to trust his team mates and when to take over
In Kobe's defense in the new NBA, I don't think superstars necessarily make other players better. Jordan helped make Pippen MUCH better, Vlade Divac benefitted greatly by playing with Magic... you just don't see much of that nowadays. Maybe Duncan and Parker - but not many others.
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Post by Nupey on Mar 12, 2008 10:53:14 GMT -5
Damie you need to stop Coldfronting....Kobe is going to win the title THIS YEAR!
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Post by DamieQue™ on Mar 12, 2008 11:03:59 GMT -5
If they can beat the Spurs - I agree. I just don't know if they can.
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Post by FULLOFME on Mar 12, 2008 11:18:00 GMT -5
M to the J
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 12, 2008 11:31:51 GMT -5
Damie hit the nail on the head and I said it earlier. From top to bottom the skill level was better in the 80's and 90's. Why because you didn't have the amount of young players you have now. Cats stayed in school 3-4 years where now you have cats spending 1 year and then being out or before the rule coming straight out of highschool. Like it or not that has watered the game down a bit because it takes these players a long time to develop with the exception of KG, Kobe, Lebron, Melo. Hell, Tmac didn't blow up until his 3 or 4th year.
I'm not downing todays players I just think that the game is a little easier on offense because of the rules then it was back in the day. Players had to work harder to score because they were getting killed going in the paint and bringing the ball up.
I do agree Kobe can improve mentally. I think part of his and Lebron's problem will be that they are chasing a ghost...MJ. They are trying to be him even though they say they are not. This will hurt them.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Mar 15, 2008 21:16:29 GMT -5
Are we talking about best basketball player or person with most accomplishments? The only reason people talk about Kobe and Lebron is because they try to pattern there game after Jordan. Neither of these negroes have changed the game just following a pattern. Where is Isiah Thomas in this convo? or the person who ran Adrain Dantley (who'd drop 35 n foul out both lebron n kobe) out of Detroit. It wasn't Zeke who ran him out. It was the original King who dropped 50 on everyone... Yup Bernard King   |
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 15, 2008 21:47:53 GMT -5
It has to be based on accomplishments...how can you claim to be the best if you don't accomplish anything? Hell, if we don't consider accomplishments, then I can claim to be the best basketball player ever. How could you prove me wrong?
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Mar 15, 2008 21:52:55 GMT -5
Thats bs. We talking about the best basketball player. If we talking accomplishments then lets end this convo now and say two words..
Bill Russell who indiviually has the most rings.
Yall mentioning Lebron and he morer than likely if he doesnt leave cleveland will not get a ring.
I mean lok at football Dan Marino has no rings but it would be stupid to not have him in the top 5 qbs of all time as well as Warren Moon.
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 15, 2008 21:57:58 GMT -5
I'm not only talking about rings, but rings are a factor. I'm also talking about numbers. Only in basketball will somebody try to argue that a guy who averages 20 points is a better scorer than a guy who averages 30...lol. If he's better, then why isn't he showing it on the court? Lebron is putting up numbers that have never been seen before, and in the process he's turned a sorry Cleveland team into a contender. If he keeps it up, he will definitely be considered one of the best of all time.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Mar 15, 2008 22:20:50 GMT -5
HOMIE Benard King reached 19,000 points quicker games played wise than everyone except George Gervin, Elgin Baylor, and Bob Petit. Thats with fucked up knees and all. 31st All time scorer and he stayed hurt.
We are talking Basketball player here. Benard King in his prime wouldve dropped 50 on kobe and lebron just off of bump fall away and 1 jumpshots
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 15, 2008 22:30:06 GMT -5
Stay off Wikipedia...lol. Thats not true. Of the players with at least 19,000 points, only Gervin, Baylor, and Petit played fewer than Bernard King. But quite a few players reached 19,000 in fewer games...Wilt and Jordan definitely did. I'm pretty sure Oscar Robertson and Kareem did as well. King was definitely a great scorer in his time but as a complete player I'd take Kobe and Lebron.
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Mar 15, 2008 22:50:41 GMT -5
Of the players with at least 19,000 points, only Gervin, Baylor, and Petit played fewer than Bernard King. But quite a few players reached 19,000 in fewer gamesLOL listen to what you said! lol
GAMES PLAYED DUDE. how you gonna regurgiatate everything I said then say i'm wrong.. lol
Bernard King's career point total of 19,665 ranks him 31st in total scoring in NBA history, as of September 2006. Of the 30 players with more career points, only George Gervin, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor played fewer games than King.
Sorry buddy you're wrong......lol
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Post by Search1906 on Mar 16, 2008 9:46:31 GMT -5
VP Offense is only one aspect of the Game. Benard while the truth as a scorer didn't exactly have the rep of being a defensive stopper or a dude that just ran a team. I wouldn't say he was the most complete player of his era but he could definitely fill it up. The same can be said for Bob McAdoo, Alex English and a few others.
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Post by coldfront06 on Mar 16, 2008 10:43:21 GMT -5
Of the players with at least 19,000 points, only Gervin, Baylor, and Petit played fewer than Bernard King. But quite a few players reached 19,000 in fewer gamesLOL listen to what you said! lol GAMES PLAYED DUDE. how you gonna regurgiatate everything I said then say i'm wrong.. lol Bernard King's career point total of 19,665 ranks him 31st in total scoring in NBA history, as of September 2006. Of the 30 players with more career points, only George Gervin, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor played fewer games than King. Sorry buddy you're wrong......lol Sigh...lol. Let me break it down and give you an example. Bernard King reaches 19,000 points in say, 655 games. He never plays another game; that leaves him at 655. Wilt reaches 19,000 in say, 400 games. He plays another 400 games, so that leaves him at 800 career games. Now who reached 19,000 in fewer games?? WILT. But Bernard King played fewer career games than Wilt. Quite a few players reached 19,000 in fewer games than Wilt...they just played more TOTAL games than he did for a career. Understand? If not, I'll give you the exact numbers of who did it in fewer games. |
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