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Post by DamieQue™ on Oct 29, 2010 9:22:50 GMT -5
Is Free Will at all predicated, in your opinion, on not having foreknowledge of the outcome of the choices we make.
Stated another way, if we know the outcome of our choices and the choices themselves, before we actually MAKE the choices, do we still have Free will? No right or wrong answers just your opinion.
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 29, 2010 9:57:34 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I think free will is a relative concept. The way I see it, humans have a scope in which we operate and we are allowed to freely will our own affairs within that sphere. This doesn't however run up against God's will, because his sphere is unlimited.
Given that, no, I don't think free will is predicated on ignorance. I will say, though, that I'm having trouble conceptualizing a situation where I could possibly know the outcome of my choices before I make them.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Oct 29, 2010 10:01:24 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I think free will is a relative concept. The way I see it, humans have a scope in which we operate and we are allowed to freely will our own affairs within that sphere. This doesn't however run up against God's will, because his sphere is unlimited. Given that, no, I don't think free will is predicated on ignorance. I will say, though, that I'm having trouble conceptualizing a situation where I could possibly know the outcome of my choices before I make them. |
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 29, 2010 10:07:01 GMT -5
Oh, ok...so you mean like if a (legitimate) prophet told me that I was destined to have 2 children in the future, would I be able to exercise my free will to remain childless?
I say no. I believe that God's will cannot be impeded in any way. He is not bound to temporal limits like humans are. If, for example, he willed for Jonah to preach in Ninevah...it was going to get done. In God's eyes, it makes absolutely no difference whether it gets done now, in two weeks or 6,000 years from now. Jonah exercised his free will to board the wrong boat, but his free exercise was thwarted when it attempted to control something that was outside his scope.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Oct 29, 2010 10:23:22 GMT -5
Oh, ok...so you mean like if a (legitimate) prophet told me that I was destined to have 2 children in the future, would I be able to exercise my free will to remain childless? I say no. I believe that God's will cannot be impeded in any way. He is not bound to temporal limits like humans are. If, for example, he willed for Jonah to preach in Ninevah...it was going to get done. In God's eyes, it makes absolutely no difference whether it gets done now, in two weeks or 6,000 years from now. Jonah exercised his free will to board the wrong boat, but his free exercise was thwarted when it attempted to control something that was outside his scope. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Oct 29, 2010 10:24:47 GMT -5
Also if there was a time machine, and you could glance (let's say) 5 hours into the future. You are able to see some choices you appear to have made as well as their outcomes.
Does knowing it, before you have done it, mean that you're going to do it no matter what? And if so, does that mean you didn't choose it?
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Post by LejaOMG on Oct 29, 2010 10:43:12 GMT -5
Also if there was a time machine, and you could glance (let's say) 5 hours into the future. You are able to see some choices you appear to have made as well as their outcomes.
Does knowing it, before you have done it, mean that you're going to do it no matter what? And if so, does that mean you didn't choose it? too abstract for me, fam. I'm throwing in the towel. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Oct 29, 2010 11:09:13 GMT -5
Also if there was a time machine, and you could glance (let's say) 5 hours into the future. You are able to see some choices you appear to have made as well as their outcomes.
Does knowing it, before you have done it, mean that you're going to do it no matter what? And if so, does that mean you didn't choose it? too abstract for me, fam. I'm throwing in the towel.
The time machine is no different than the prophet in that they give you advanced knowledge of events. If events are fixed in stone, do you have free will? |
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Post by All Pledging Is Legal on Oct 30, 2010 14:11:28 GMT -5
Free will is only relative to the living. If someone tells me that I am destined to do something great in the future, I can just blow my brains out right there and change my "destiny". (I copied this from "The Devil's Advocate")
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Post by Cambist on Nov 1, 2010 10:49:51 GMT -5
For us to be able to predict the future, it must already be written. If it's written, then I do not have free will.
Personally, I don't believe that the future is already written. I do believe that the universe follows certain rules and that while these rules may be too numerous and complicated for us to understand, they do exist and we do follow them.
For instance, most scientists would argue that a house fly with a lifespan of 4 weeks has a limited number of options in how that 4 weeks is carried out. We could also probably argue that early behavior patterns would/could be a predictor of what decisions this fly may make in the future. We know this because we can conduct multi-generational studies in what is to us, a short period of time.
So if an omnipotent being is watching us and understands the rules of our existance, it would be nothing to predict our future. The fact that most prophesy is either self fulfilling, vague, or a non-event if it doesn't come true may also add to appearance of being able to tell the future.
**I have the slight urge to quote The Architect from The Matrix..**
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 1, 2010 11:00:06 GMT -5
For us to be able to predict the future, it must already be written. If it's written, then I do not have free will. Personally, I don't believe that the future is already written. I do believe that the universe follows certain rules and that while these rules may be too numerous and complicated for us to understand, they do exist and we do follow them. For instance, most scientists would argue that a house fly with a lifespan of 4 weeks has a limited number of options in how that 4 weeks is carried out. We could also probably argue that early behavior patterns would/could be a predictor of what decisions this fly may make in the future. We know this because we can conduct multi-generational studies in what is to us, a short period of time. So if an omnipotent being is watching us and understands the rules of our existance, it would be nothing to predict our future. The fact that most prophesy is either self fulfilling, vague, or a non-event if it doesn't come true may also add to appearance of being able to tell the future. **I have the slight urge to quote The Architect from The Matrix..** |
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Post by LejaOMG on Nov 1, 2010 11:26:22 GMT -5
God's will is not contingent on anything. I think the end result is written. The journey is where we're free to twist and turn as we choose. I'm not certain if God frames his will for our lives as as precise as "you are going to be a 3rd grade teacher in an underserved rural school district," but if his general destiny is that you "help young people," I don't believe that you can do anything other than that. You might be a football coach, you might work in corporate america and volunteer w/4H, you may be a stay-at-home mom who is devoted to developing your own children. The destination is set. The path is ours to choose.
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Post by Coldfront06 on Nov 1, 2010 11:51:35 GMT -5
Is there a such thing as a negative destiny from God? For example, were mass murderers, rapist, etc. always destined to be the cause of so much pain for others? Or can you look at those people and say that even though they caused much suffering, God still had some "positive" plan for them that was fulfilled through their actions? This is a question that I've always had...I don't have an answer for it and I've received many different responses.
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Post by Cambist on Nov 1, 2010 12:36:02 GMT -5
If you CAN know the future, then free will doesn't matter...at least not as it relates to the future you have already seen but not yet occured (or has it?).
Does it matter what mode of transportation you take or what path you travel if all roads lead to a predicted destination? As APIL said, the only way to stop that from happening is to end your life...at which point, the prediction would be wrong.
So.....I would argue that one cannot accurately know the future and therefore we cannot know whether or not free will actually exists.
The flipside...going back to the fly...what if what we see as choice and free will is actually just a series of pre-programmed behaviors, calculated moves and MAPs that we cannot fathom and therefore we see as individual choices?
In that way, the future would be predictable and free will would only exist as far as you were willing to allow yourself to exist.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 1, 2010 12:56:20 GMT -5
If you CAN know the future, then free will doesn't matter...at least not as it relates to the future you have already seen but not yet occured (or has it?). Does it matter what mode of transportation you take or what path you travel if all roads lead to a predicted destination? As APIL said, the only way to stop that from happening is to end your life...at which point, the prediction would be wrong. So.....I would argue that one cannot accurately know the future and therefore we cannot know whether or not free will actually exists. The flipside...going back to the fly...what if what we see as choice and free will is actually just a series of pre-programmed behaviors, calculated moves and MAPs that we cannot fathom and therefore we see as individual choices? In that way, the future would be predictable and free will would only exist as far as you were willing to allow yourself to exist.
1) your choice to kill yourself would somehow fail or cause you to be a Senator
2) the advanced knowledge would reflect only your future of taking your life |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 1, 2010 14:46:12 GMT -5
That's what i'm saying...if you truly have advanced knowledge then that reality already exists and therefore must take into consideration the decision you made to seek out the future....in that case, you have no free will.
What you do or choose to do may seem free but if you cannot escape destiny, even through suicide then you do not have free will. It cannot exist.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 2, 2010 10:05:20 GMT -5
That's what i'm saying...if you truly have advanced knowledge then that reality already exists and therefore must take into consideration the decision you made to seek out the future....in that case, you have no free will. What you do or choose to do may seem free but if you cannot escape destiny, even through suicide then you do not have free will. It cannot exist.
If you have advanced knowledge of events Cam, they are the result of choices you have already made, how then can you NOT have free will? You arrive at that destiny by choices.
Your response? |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2010 12:13:08 GMT -5
Stated another way, if we know the outcome of our choices and the choices themselves, before we actually MAKE the choices, do we still have Free will? No right or wrong answers just your opinion. I'm going back to the question for clarity. If we know the outcome of our choices AND the choices themselves, before we actually make the choices, do we still have free will? If you are given a panel with buttons, each button corresponding to a choice you COULD make in the future and by pushing that button you would see the result of that choice...would you have free will? Yes. Because at that point, you could say, I know my choices and the consequences of those choices so I have an INFORMRED option. That scenario is simple though. What if all you knew was the outcome. What if all you we shown was you getting shot at Safeway, 7 years from now? What if you were told that this is an unescapable reality? This is the scenario most preseted in arguments about destiny. If destiny is the sum total of all choices then we wouldn't be able to see past the last decision/choice we made unless that choice was to stay right were we were when we saw the future. If destiny IS the total sum of all choices and we CAN see 5, 10, or 20 years into the future, then we can safely assume that our "free will" does not exist. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 9, 2010 13:00:59 GMT -5
Stated another way, if we know the outcome of our choices and the choices themselves, before we actually MAKE the choices, do we still have Free will? No right or wrong answers just your opinion. I'm going back to the question for clarity. If we know the outcome of our choices AND the choices themselves, before we actually make the choices, do we still have free will? If you are given a panel with buttons, each button corresponding to a choice you COULD make in the future and by pushing that button you would see the result of that choice...would you have free will? Yes. Because at that point, you could say, I know my choices and the consequences of those choices so I have an INFORMRED option. That scenario is simple though. What if all you knew was the outcome. What if all you we shown was you getting shot at Safeway, 7 years from now? What if you were told that this is an unescapable reality? This is the scenario most preseted in arguments about destiny. If destiny is the sum total of all choices then we wouldn't be able to see past the last decision/choice we made unless that choice was to stay right were we were when we saw the future. |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2010 14:53:43 GMT -5
Taking away knowledge of the future is the key. If you don't know the future then your reality is that you have free will. Whether you do or not cannot be known.
If you have knowledge of the result, and you cant change the outcome (that's the important part) then any arbitrary choice you make will do.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 9, 2010 15:36:20 GMT -5
Taking away knowledge of the future is the key. If you don't know the future then your reality is that you have free will. Whether you do or not cannot be known. If you have knowledge of the result, and you cant change the outcome (that's the important part) then any arbitrary choice you make will do.
It's like you're arguing that you should be able to choose against your own choices or else you don't have free will. If I were able to travel back into time and tell you what you did... how have I taken away the free will that you have already exercised? |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 9, 2010 16:02:44 GMT -5
The problem is in the assumption that we can know the future without it having written. If we CAN know the future then the set of events leading to that event are either predetermined, or designed to lead to that outcome regardless of the choices.
And since every choice or action has an effect (in some way) on things around you, then your reality would affect someone elses.
Even if the outcome is predetermined and you still have the ability to make choices that lead to that outcome, can you honestly say that you exercised your free will and that it was absent any outside restrictions on your ability to make that choice?
Also, if any decision you make will produce the same outcome, then how are we to know that the very decisions made were not the same one's that were predetermined?
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 9, 2010 16:19:22 GMT -5
The problem is in the assumption that we can know the future without it having written. If we CAN know the future then the set of events leading to that event are either predetermined, or designed to lead to that outcome regardless of the choices.
Let's say I know what you are going to choose and where you are going to end up but I do not tell you. Do you have free will? The knowledge still exists but you don't know it. Have you lost free will - when it's your choices that navigate you to the end that I already forsee? |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 11, 2010 8:11:10 GMT -5
**reaches into his Batman utility belt and shoots a grappling hook gun to help mitigate his fall down the rabbit hole**
Soooooo.....let me ask....to what degree are we saying free will exists? Does our free will determine our outcomes or are the choices simply different paths to the same outcome?
Because if that outcome already exists (which is why we can see it) or if that future reality is already known (since, as Christians, we assume that God, in his omnipotence and omniscience, has dominion over and knowledge of our ultimate destiny) then we are simply choosing the brand of bullet that will be used to kill someone since the fact that the murder will take place is already written.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 11, 2010 8:46:09 GMT -5
**reaches into his Batman utility belt and shoots a grappling hook gun to help mitigate his fall down the rabbit hole** Soooooo.....let me ask....to what degree are we saying free will exists? Does our free will determine our outcomes or are the choices simply different paths to the same outcome? Because if that outcome already exists (which is why we can see it) or if that future reality is already known (since, as Christians, we assume that God, in his omnipotence and omniscience, has dominion over and knowledge of our ultimate destiny) then we are simply choosing the brand of bullet that will be used to kill someone since the fact that the murder will take place is already written.
What if time is merely our way of organizing events in our mind? What if the choices we are going to make, we have already made, and the debates that we think we have about a choice, is really just our mind determining why we made the choice (this is almost straight out of the Matrix yo - LOL) |
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Post by Cambist on Nov 11, 2010 12:20:09 GMT -5
I agree.
If we have already made the choice (the only way we would actually be able to KNOW the future) then, like a dream, our mind is just trying to make sense of it.
This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the housefly. What if our entire reality is so simple and rudamentary in the grand scheme of an infinite universe that our actions are not random, and everything we do is the only way things can happen.
"...what happened happened for a reason and could have have happened any other way." -Morpheus
So for an infinite being looking upon us, our behavior is no more random or free than is a fly that predictably flys down when faced with an obstacle on it's upper left side. To the fly, it may seem like a last second decision and a matter of free will but to us, it was predictable.
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 11, 2010 12:25:51 GMT -5
True. And what if our ability to predict was so accurate, that it was equivalent to "knowing the future". It would essentially be probability where the percentage was 100%
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Post by Cambist on Nov 11, 2010 12:53:06 GMT -5
Sah da tay, my damie....sah...da...tay....
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Nov 11, 2010 17:31:25 GMT -5
Are we predicating "Free Will" on the ability to choose? Is there truly a "choice" if your end point is fixed? Like the chick said in the movie The Knowing, What does it matter if we all die in the end?
Life is a creation which has the pitfalls of structural and design bias. Furthermore we live on a time delay by huge proportions. The brain takes in 400 billion bits of information per second while we are only aware of 2000 bits per second. Basically you could be dead right now and living out the reality and imagination of the information received in a split second.....
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Post by DamieQue™ on Nov 11, 2010 17:56:45 GMT -5
Are we predicating "Free Will" on the ability to choose? Is there truly a "choice" if your end point is fixed? Like the chick said in the movie The Knowing, What does it matter if we all die in the end? Life is a creation which has the pitfalls of structural and design bias. Furthermore we live on a time delay by huge proportions. The brain takes in 400 billion bits of information per second while we are only aware of 2000 bits per second. Basically you could be dead right now and living out the reality and imagination of the information received in a split second..... |
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