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Post by Chal™ on May 18, 2010 16:53:25 GMT -5
Are you going to answer the new question Chal?  i will when i get home. i'm tryna close up shop here, but ooa keeps distracting me. lol |
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Post by peppermint on May 18, 2010 16:55:35 GMT -5
But what many folks who have been married for a long time or any time for that matter...lol may tell you is that the person you said "I do" to may not be the person who wakes up next to you 10 years later or even as early as during the honeymoon (for some unfortunate folks.  ) So is it okay, once the man stops following God, for the woman to say NO, I can no longer follow you? Does the Bible allow for these contingencies? Going on the basis for divorce, which would be the means by which you would break the marriage conventant, no. In my mind it's a package deal. He submits to God, you submit to him. He doesn't submit to God, the deal is off. Problem of course is when and how you make the determination that he's not. Except but for extreme examples (i.e. he cheats on you, he hits you, he worships devil, etc) how do you even determine that he is not in submission? I'm not sure how you would do it. Any ideas? The presumption would be if he is a non-believer then he is not under the submission of God. My personal belief is that husbands have three primary purposes: priest, protector and provider. Now if what he claims God has told him opposes these, then it should be questioned. |
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Post by DamieQue™ on May 18, 2010 18:32:03 GMT -5
But what many folks who have been married for a long time or any time for that matter...lol may tell you is that the person you said "I do" to may not be the person who wakes up next to you 10 years later or even as early as during the honeymoon (for some unfortunate folks. ) So is it okay, once the man stops following God, for the woman to say NO, I can no longer follow you? Does the Bible allow for these contingencies? Going on the basis for divorce, which would be the means by which you would break the marriage conventant, no. In my mind it's a package deal. He submits to God, you submit to him. He doesn't submit to God, the deal is off. Problem of course is when and how you make the determination that he's not. Except but for extreme examples (i.e. he cheats on you, he hits you, he worships devil, etc) how do you even determine that he is not in submission? I'm not sure how you would do it. Any ideas? The presumption would be if he is a non-believer then he is not under the submission of God. My personal belief is that husbands have three primary purposes: priest, protector and provider. Now if what he claims God has told him opposes these, then it should be questioned.
...how do you question it? And how long do you question it? Do you question it and submit? If the wind farm turns out to be a bust, does that mean that he wasn't directed to do it? How long would you wait to make that determination? |
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Post by Chal™ on May 18, 2010 19:08:50 GMT -5
So is it okay, once the man stops following God, for the woman to say NO, I can no longer follow you? Does the Bible allow for these contingencies? ok. If he stops following God WILL I stop following him? Yes. in the end I am the one responsible for my salvation. i will not follow you blindly if you are leading me in the wrong direction. |
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Post by peppermint on May 18, 2010 21:02:02 GMT -5
Damie- no, that would not be a sign because the elected to marry him with the understanding that he is a non-believer and the head of her household. If he is a believer and has demonstrated that he is submissive unto God then I'd trust (and pray  that God would give him what is necessary to build up the farm. Some disagree but I believe that we are put through trials of faith. Just because the farm is a bust does not mean that we have lost everything. While in Arizona we may stumble upon something else that requires the faith and determination we learned during our farming days. Let me also say that as a man's helpmate, I believe that God may reveal something to the husband but confirm it in the wife or vice versa. God is not the author of confusion. If both are sensitive to the Spirit they should receive similar confirmation/revelation. @chal- would you divorce him if he stopped following God's will? |
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Post by 123Diva on May 18, 2010 21:08:40 GMT -5
In my mind it's a package deal. He submits to God, you submit to him. He doesn't submit to God, the deal is off. Problem of course is when and how you make the determination that he's not. Except but for extreme examples (i.e. he cheats on you, he hits you, he worships devil, etc) how do you even determine that he is not in submission? I'm not sure how you would do it. Any ideas?If the man is not submitting to God then should the woman submit to him? Damie, I would think you would be able to tell by his walk. I'm sure there is a lot that a wife sees when it comes to her husband and vice versa. Not sure of how great these examples are, but I've heard married women complaining that their husbands are not praying with them, not leading Bible study in the home, have stopped attending church, etc...and plain ole doing things directly in contradiction to God's word...the obvious stuff. |
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Post by Chal™ on May 18, 2010 22:00:13 GMT -5
Divorce. I'm not a strong advocate of that word. And I honestly can't say what I will or won't do. But I was brought up (not saying this is my choice, but I was taught) with the understanding that as a Christian, entering into the covenant of marriage is binding. That the unfaithful/ungodly/non-believing party must be the one to ask for the split.
I'd like to say that I will at least try first. I will continuously build up my faith and grow with God's spirit and pray for the salvation of his soul. I will pray for guidance and his behalf, and pray that he finds his way home. If it gets to the point where it is physically, emotionally, and most importantly, SPIRITUALLY unhealthy, yes, i will walk.
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Post by LogAKAlly <3'n Keef on May 18, 2010 22:21:47 GMT -5
No human should have total control over another.
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Post by nsync on May 27, 2010 4:27:40 GMT -5
From the Outtie files: (Chal you inspired me!) Be careful what you ask for:(Speaking from a healthy relationship point of view. This does not included cases of abuse or other extreme methods of harm.) In the past I have noticed many women who proclaimed to the high heavens that "THEY love it when a man takes control! Or, their man MUST be the head of the household," They would have it no other way.These women were believable until tried. This is the case especially of women who got married “older” 26plus, who were financially self sufficient and/or who were devotedly career oriented, but not limited to those groups alone(or inclusive of everyone in them, either). And it makes sense. These are the type of women who have tasted the freedom of making their own decisions, are confident in shaping their own destinies and have very little interest in submitting to anyone or anything except God (maybe). They THINK they want to submit, but they have no idea. Here lies the problem; I don’t think many understand the true definition of submission as it relates to marriage. At the core of submission is obedience no matter how one tries to slice. Therefore, submission should not be taken lightly. Once two people get married and decide to follow a biblically structured household, they must hold to it tooth and nails. There isn’t room for half stepping or recurrent backsliding. If the man is the head HE’s THE HEAD. He’s the head even when he’s wrong, even when he’s wayward, and even when he’s not following the ordained structure of the household during random periods of the union. If the man says follow me down this dark alley…You, I , We the “I love it when my man takes control…he MUST be the head” Coalition of American Women must follow that man right down that dark alley. This is not to say we can not object. It’s just to say if that’s where he’s going and taking us/family then that’s where we should go with love and trust. If the man says I don’t want you doing this that or the other…You, I, We the “I love it when my man takes control…he MUST be the head” Coalition of American Women must abstain from that thing, lest we be considered out of line or a poor follower. If there is a decision to be made, compromise is ideal, but not always realistic. The man gets the final word (unless for whatever reason he gives it to you—which is still his lead). No ifs ands or buts, from us. Yes, he can listen. Yes, he should listen, but he does not have to listen at all. Still, it's the wife’s job to submit. I believe that a good biblically structured man/husband will make allowance for his wife by giving her room to be and do her own. However there will be significant instances when submission doesn't correspond with such. Submission encompasses the good---when he’s loving you like the bible says and the not so good (As the helpmate it is the wife's job to help him get back on track especially through your prayers.)—when he’s off the mark and all in between. This is the theory vs practice that I believe we as women fail to realize when we make such bold claims.As you may know or will eventually discover, for better or for worse isn't just a fancy line of poetry. I can’t speak on the man’s obligations under loving thy wife, but I can say as far as submission goes--- tread lightly with this one ladies. If you don’t mean it, don't fein it! |
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Post by Chal™ on May 27, 2010 12:22:00 GMT -5
Exalt!!!
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Post by Mrs. Eyes on May 27, 2010 12:25:59 GMT -5
You hit that on the head ma'am!
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Post by nsync on May 30, 2010 22:14:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the exalt and comment. Yeah, I like that the tone makes it hard to tell if I am for or against submission. It's up to the reader to decide. Submission is an awesome topic overall. There are so many layers. |
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Post by Chal™ on May 31, 2010 2:12:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the exalt and comment. Yeah, I like that the tone makes it hard to tell if I am for or against submission. yea, because I'm here like, ok, Outtie, which is it? lol |
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Post by Oren Ishii on May 31, 2010 12:25:29 GMT -5
I read what Outtie said, and all I can say about it is WOW...
That's A LOT of sacrifice on the part of woman.
Given my circumstances, I can be a little more liberal in how I approach this subject.
The very idea of submission of my autonomy to ANYONE makes me gag.
It's one of my major issues with the Christian concept of marriage (it would be the same for Islam & any other religion that seeks to make a woman subservient). And let's not make this a gay vs. straight issue, because it isn't. I'd be the same if I had relationships with men.
A woman is a supreme being - the ultimate Earthly creator. By "submitting" herself & making someone else de facto director of her life, she is acquiescing her power & her rightful place.
To give up your own decision making faculties (exp. given the pseudo-rationalty employed by most men)...
To defer your wishes to another person, because the Bible says "he is head of the household..."
To deny your God given right to control your own life for the sake of domestic tranquility?
HELL no!
In the famous (or infamous) Proverbs 31 passage that we ladies so often quote, look at the nature of the virtuous woman.
SHE owns several businesses.
SHE "considers a field & buys it" (gotta have control of HER OWN MONEY).
SHE engages in trade & commerce.
SHE makes the household decisions & directs the order of the house.
SHE keeps busy ensuring that her home & children are cared for.
Where is her husband?
In the city gates, chilling with some old dudes while SHE goes about the business of life. He "safely trusts in her" because she knows how to handle business.
I don't know about you all (and I respect however you choose to live), but I am no one's "helpmate." I am not subservient - even to a woman [there are some who choose to take on those traditional gender roles].
I just don't understand how one can strive to self-actualize while giving a great deal of her power to someone else. In particular, I speak of Black women, given that our ancestors were predominantly matriarchal.
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Post by godfirstmelast on Jun 3, 2010 23:03:57 GMT -5
^^^^^In my view, men and women should be on equal footing. A woman is not a supreme earthly being, neither is a man. Yes, life flows from woman, but she needs man's emission to create life, therefore it is a helpmate relationship. On both parties' parts. And all life comes from the Creator.
If I'm going to treat you like a king then you damn sure better treat me like a queen. The Bible supports this notion through the passages that Pep mentioned earlier. Both parties should submit to each other. But the problem is that society is largely patriarchal, therefore women are influenced to believe that they alone should be subservient. This is not how God intended it to be.
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G Money$CMB$
OOA neo
?It's not the load that breaks you down, it's the way you carry it.?
Posts: 264
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Post by G Money$CMB$ on Jun 8, 2010 10:15:35 GMT -5
<Passing around the collection plate for the building fund>
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Post by nsync on Jun 8, 2010 10:19:13 GMT -5
Can someone post the scripture that states man or husband is to submit to women or wife?
I have not seen it ever.
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Post by nsync on Jun 8, 2010 10:20:02 GMT -5
Also for those who believe in equal footing do you also believe the man should be the head of the household? If so what exactly does that constitute?
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Post by DamieQue™ on Jun 10, 2010 11:59:00 GMT -5
Can someone post the scripture that states man or husband is to submit to women or wife? I have not seen it ever.
Interesting read though (your earlier post) |
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Post by Chal™ on Jun 10, 2010 12:11:56 GMT -5
Ephesians - Chapter 5:22-24,33
22. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savoir.
24. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
33. ...and the wife must respect her husband.
Colossians – Chapter 3:18
18. Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
First Corinthians - Chapter 11:3
3. Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The last one doesn't say submit, but it's in the same category.
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Post by Chal™ on Jun 10, 2010 12:14:42 GMT -5
on the flip side...
Ephesians - Chapter 5:25-33
25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26. to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27. and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-
30. for we are members of his body.
31. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
32. This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself...
Colossians - Chapter 3:19
19. You husbands must love your wives and never treat them harshly.
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Post by nsync on Jun 24, 2010 12:39:21 GMT -5
Thanks so much Chal especially for the alert.
I don't see loving and submitting as the same thing.
However I absolutely agree that husbands should love their wives.
So still I don't see anything about men submitting to women in the bible. That is not commanded by the bible at all.
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Post by Chal™ on Jun 24, 2010 13:54:21 GMT -5
Not a prob. I've missed ya, lady!!
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Post by Vudu_Prince on Jun 29, 2010 8:32:30 GMT -5
on the flip side... Ephesians - Chapter 5:25-33
25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26. to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27. and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-
30. for we are members of his body.
31. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
32. This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself...
[/b] Always thought it was interesting how they equated the Man and Woman union with Jesus and the Church and the marriage symbolism in Revelations..... |
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dhype
OOA Interest
Got Fortitude?
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Post by dhype on Jul 4, 2010 0:12:30 GMT -5
I studied this subject for my senior thesis and to fully understand it (IMO ofcourse), one must understand some key concepts in genesis. ***Ill try to be brief but...
1) Man doesn't equal penis, and woman doesn't equal vagina.
When god created adam he didn't give birth to a man but MANKIND. Adam is a generation not a sole being. God shows us his will through patterns in nature and his will def. includes positive companionship, therefore why would a perfect God introduce loneliness when he favors companionship. With this being established, when eve was created (a generation also, not a sole being) , and the term woman came about , it (the term woman) referred to a complimenting partner for man, not a being with a vagina. Each generation contained what we know today as women and men. God created the generation of eve to compliment the talents that he bestowed upon the generation of adam.
2) Husband and wife are components that cant be found in our world
God tells us through everything, he aren't complete until we allow the holy spirit to inhabit our vessels. We also know that union in the bible means to form a complete whole. Lastly we know that God wants to be the HEAD of our lives. Combining these three pieces , we learn that a true union (i.e. marriage) must not only be formed with God, but be HEADed by God. Therefore, it is concluded that an earthly man is not a husband, just as an earthly woman is not a wife. The husband (I.E. The HEAD of the household) can be no other than God, and the two genders on earth can only combine to form a wife, not an entire union.
FINALLY my point lol:
There is a reason why the husband is such a dominant force in the bible... bc he is the strongest, the mightiest, the most compentent, and the overall greatest. Why? He is God.
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that God would give him what is necessary to build up the farm. Some disagree but I believe that we are put through trials of faith. Just because the farm is a bust does not mean that we have lost everything. While in Arizona we may stumble upon something else that requires the faith and determination we learned during our farming days. 
