|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 12:45:20 GMT -5
So, being that proof is absent...it is safe to presume that you hope that you've chosen the correct path? If it is the case that one is hoping and is not certain, because there is a lack of proof, then why would someone want to pledge their allegiance to a creed based upon the faith of uncertainty?" Certainly, the All wouldn't intend for the masses to be "uncertain."
This is not directed toward you and I mean no disrespect in any form or fashion... I'm enjoying the dialogue.
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 13:05:26 GMT -5
Okay ... well let me ask this ... so follow me... If one believes in "Adam" and "Eve" ... according to legend ... why were they excommunicated from the Garden? And if it was because of "sin" or "Original Sin," however one would like to label it ... is it not true that due to their uncleanliness ... that they were not allowed to ever access this Garden? If I'm wrong regarding this understanding ... please ... enlighten me. O...
1. Because they were disobedient
2. So that they could not take from the "Tree of Life"
I don't recall uncleanliness being a part of it, but give me a Scriptural reference and I'll take a look at it.The "disobedient" heart or act would've made them "unclean;" I suppose because it was considered a "sin" to take part of the fruit. Well, if the above holds to be true ... the why was Satan given access to the Garden when he disobeyed G-d? I mean, he was already of an "unclean" state at that moment because he was excommunicated from Heaven at this time... correct? Why would G-d place imperfection (Satan after he fell from Heaven) within an area of perfection. I mean, of course he couldn't remain in Heaven because of his "sinful" state... It's apparent within Christian theology that Heaven isn't perfect either... because if it were ... it would still be in the same state as it were from the beginning of Creation. If G-d started out with X amount of angels ... and 1/3rd were banished ... then by technicality, it would be considered incomplete because it is not at the original count that G-d began it with. If I have a full pie... and you eat a third of it... my pie is not whole therefore rendering it incomplete. Just talking... O... |
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 13:06:21 GMT -5
So, being that proof is absent...it is safe to presume that you hope that you've chosen the correct path? If it is the case that one is hoping and is not certain, because there is a lack of proof, then why would someone want to pledge their allegiance to a creed based upon the faith of uncertainty?" Certainly, the All wouldn't intend for the masses to be "uncertain." This is not directed toward you and I mean no disrespect in any form or fashion... I'm enjoying the dialogue. O...
Faith is not uncertainty - faith is tool of human necessity - it is how we operate. It's how we know without truly knowing. Fermat's last theorem was solved a few years back. That's math. We know it's solved - but how do we know it's solved? Not because WE went and checked the proof but because someone told us it was solved.
In fact if we examine our lives, some of us might find there are more things we believe based on someone telling us so, then us proving it to ourselves.
Self-proof is really not the lynch pin here though. What makes us ALL operate by faith is the absence of Absolute Truth. There are a number of relative truths that we might discern but they are only true if our presumptions are true and our perception is true. To know Absolute Truth, to know everything about everything that ever was, is, and will be - is absolute truth (at least that's how I defined it in my book - LOL)
And no man, no woman possesses that. And if you don't possess that, then you truly don't KNOW anything. You can be convinced of something, you can think something, or you can believe something - but to truly know it - requires a God perspective.
*Looks around the room to see if anyone has a God perspective*
I don't see anybody around here with one. |
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 13:16:40 GMT -5
[/color][/quote]
If faith isn't "uncertainty," then how can someone be certain without any proof?
And in regards to the "(Looks around the room to see if anyone has a G-d perspective) I don't see anybody around here with one," sounds just like the people who denied the many Saviors of their present day; because the person looked to much like one of them.... if we're the "image" ... what else would you expect?
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 13:18:34 GMT -5
There is no mention of sin by them eating the fruit. Any theories as to why? I have one. What they did was disobedient but not sin - because they had no knowledge of right and wrong. Thereafter they do, and thereafter they are exiled, and thereafter disobedience to God is referred to as sin, as it is disobedience WITH knowledge of that which was right and wrong. I don't think it was uncleanliness at all.
Satan was thrown out due to rebellion. As far as imperfection - again I say that is a creation of the creation. If I sell you a gun I'm not responsible for you doing a drive by with it.
I don't know that one can conlcude anything about Heaven and it's state of perfection (or lack thereof). Was the universe the same on God Day 1, as it was on God Day 2? Was there imperfection in creation inbetween the time God say let there be light and Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water? I look at this and I see that some of creation changed and yet I am unable to say that there was imperfection that caused the change.
|
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 13:32:03 GMT -5
[/color][/quote] If faith isn't "uncertainty," then how can someone be certain without any proof? And in regards to the "( Looks around the room to see if anyone has a G-d perspective) I don't see anybody around here with one," sounds just like the people who denied the many Saviors of their present day; because the person looked to much like one of them.... if we're the "image" ... what else would you expect? O...[/quote]  And now we're back into semantics. Human beings don't verify everything they believe - they believe what people tell them, they believe what institutions tell them, they believe what books tell them - they don't verify. But even if you did verify - unless you know the absolute truth, then you DON'T know anything. You can believe, you can think, and you can be convinced...
...and you can still be wrong.
Faith is belief - so it is NOT certainty as certainty implies knowledge and (at least according to me) no one truly knows anything. Forutnately faith doesn't require absolute knowledge. I think that's science that has the pre-requisite.
And to clarfiy the God perspective I was referring to is not an image - it's a position/location |
|
|
|
Post by steelsword on Feb 11, 2008 13:33:47 GMT -5
To Camel, in a sense ,I think you are correct , in that sin may not be imperfect in the sence that it shows our disobedience. Did God want us to sin? My opinion NO! Did we Choose to ? Yes. The Original sin was in the Flesh. Would Adam and Eve still be in the Garden if they chose not to bow to temptation ? My Opinion ,Yes. Somewhere in the equation Sin plays a part, And that part has usually been seperation fom God. So is the Perfection of sin to weed out those who will not be in his Kingdom? Satan was seperated, Adam was seperated , we are seperated , but reconciled through Christ.  ? We don't know why God does somethings the way he does , but I guess if I created something I could choose to Lord over it as I see Fit. God Bless , Steel |
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 13:37:47 GMT -5
1. The reason I referenced it as "sin" is due to a chapter within Romans 5:12 that states: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..."
2. Okay, so you're not responsible for the act, but you would be responsible for creating the gun; a device with a great potential of destruction. .... Just like freewill. Why even sale the gun?
3. Now, you did state "...that is a creation of the creation," so that would entail that everything that "Satan" possessed was a result of the Creator. Correct?
4. In regards to the universe being the same on Day 1 and Day 2 etc., time doesn't exist when one is immortal. If you were physically suspended in space, there is no such thing as day or night. The universe is ever dying (changing). Maybe, that is why F. Neitzsche stated: "G-d is dead."
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 13:51:16 GMT -5
1. The reason I referenced it as "sin" is due to a chapter within Romans 5:12 that states: " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..."2. Okay, so you're not responsible for the act, but you would be responsible for creating the gun; a device with a great potential of destruction. .... Just like freewill. Why even sale the gun? 3. Now, you did state "... that is a creation of the creation," so that would entail that everything that "Satan" possessed was a result of the Creator. Correct? 4. In regards to the universe being the same on Day 1 and Day 2 etc., time doesn't exist when one is immortal. If you were physically suspended in space, there is no such thing as day or night. The universe is ever dying (changing). Maybe, that is why F. Neitzsche stated: "G-d is dead." O...
2. We're all responsible for our own actions - that is component of free will and it is a part of what makes us human.
3. Not understanding the question on this one.
4. God is immortal in Heaven as well, but I don't think some of it's residents being thrown out mean that Heaven isn't complete. You've thrown out stuff from your house too haven't you? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 13:51:43 GMT -5
Oh, one more thing, (I failed to mention this within the previous post) are you stating that G-d still punishes those who know no better or have "no knowledge of right and wrong?
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 14:02:13 GMT -5
3. When I stated: "Now, you did state '...that is a creation of the creation,' so that would entail that everything that 'Satan' possessed was a result of the Creator. Correct?" I was implying the thought that according to the phrase "...a creation of the creation," that would imply G-d created evil if everything that Satan possessed was a result from his Creator.
4. Yes, I have thrown things out of my house, but that was do to the fact that I didn't want them any longer and had no emotional attachment to the item(s). I've never thrown out an item that I have loved. It is highly unlikely that G-d felt the same way toward Satan; that He threw him out because He just didn't want him any longer. Does not G-d still love Satan?
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 14:14:49 GMT -5
3. I'm still not understanding you here O. If I create an idol of gold and silver, that is a creation, of the creation (me). I do not hold that God is responsible for the creations of his creations. If I go out and massacre 20 people right now... the police do not arrest my parents, they arrest me. What the Satan is allowed to do, Satan is responsible for. If you want to trace all responsibility to God, the argument would kind of a nebulous "well God created the universe and if there was no universe none of this could have happened" type argument.
A steel company produces steel, a gun manfacturer fashions that steel into a weapon and sells it, the buyer uses it to hold up a bank. Who do we hold responsible for the robbery? The person who did the act, the person who provided the gun, or the person who provided the raw material. If we follow technicalities, I guess you could blame God for creating steel - I just do not hold that He is responsible for things that WE do given free will. Hopefully this makes a little more sense than my previous ambiguous statement of "creations of the creation"
Would you throw out a tenant from you house that challenged you for authority and control of your house? ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by osiris on Feb 11, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -5
[/color][/quote]
Are you stating that G-d still punishes those who don't know any better or have "no knowledge of right and wrong?
....
Ah, but when that "tenant" is your off-spring... do you ban him or her from your household for an "eternity?" I don't think you would Damie; unless otherwise, please be so kind to continue to reply...
O...
|
|
|
|
Post by Nupey on Feb 11, 2008 15:59:57 GMT -5
But Osiris.
Were going off the Premise that Heaven is COMPLETLY without sin, and of course the bible says that "Sin cannot exist in God's presence"
So how could satan STAY in heaven, if he sinned?
|
|
|
|
Post by DamieQue™ on Feb 11, 2008 17:32:05 GMT -5
[/color][/quote] Are you stating that G-d still punishes those who don't know any better or have "no knowledge of right and wrong? .... Ah, but when that "tenant" is your off-spring... do you ban him or her from your household for an "eternity?" I don't think you would Damie; unless otherwise, please be so kind to continue to reply... O...[/quote] LOLeven men say ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking it. In this case though they didn't know what was evil and what was good, they knew what they were told. And they were disciplined (ever do that to a child? Ever discipline a child for running out in the street even if they didn't know why they shouldn't?)
Also - if you want to be technical about it God has one Son. The rest of us are creation. The Potter creates, destroys, mends each piece at His own discretion. Who is the pottery to protest? |
|
|
|
Post by water on Feb 12, 2008 12:21:31 GMT -5
The Tree of Life is Yahshua get grafted in and REST(Sabbath) in Peace(Salem) for real. The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil is Satan stay eating that strange fruit and you will get no rest and no peace . Selah 
|
|
|
|
Post by Cambist on Feb 12, 2008 12:27:24 GMT -5
If sin cannot exist in Gods presence AND Go d is Omnipotent....
How does that work?
If Satan was not sinning then why would it be a conflict? Satan himself is not sin.
|
|
|
|
Post by water on Feb 12, 2008 14:29:24 GMT -5
a donkey talked , child birth, the red sea split, a virgin gave birth, lazarus walked out from his grave, blind men were healed , lepers were cleansed, the Passover Lamb Yahshua ...... Yahweh did all that
cars,space shuttles, computers ,the masons, religions, the twin towers, the tower of babel, chinese calculus , ww2, nuclear subs, atomic bombs, blogs, message boards, and test tube babies.......Man did all that
i guess it is all Possible.... blessed are those that believe and have not seen.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nupey on Feb 12, 2008 14:49:21 GMT -5
If sin cannot exist in Gods presence AND Go d is Omnipotent.... How does that work? If Satan was not sinning then why would it be a conflict? Satan himself is not sin. Cam, your asking us to explain things that our minds aren't capable of understanding. Who made up the word "Omnipotent"? Man did. We cannot simply denfine God's presence in a mere word made up thousands of years ago can we? |
|
|
|
Post by Cambist on Feb 12, 2008 15:13:50 GMT -5
Ok...let me ask it this way...
Job 1:6
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
That's what I was talking about.
|
|
|
|
Post by water on Feb 12, 2008 15:43:49 GMT -5
okay lets say you are born again ...then God will take residence within you(the Holy Spirit) and you talk to lets say a a real vodoo preist or new ager who is infilled with spirit guides ......Once again God and satan or one of his imps are having a conversation. And if you are really born again you better speak as Yahshua spoke in the desert IT IS WRITTEN................... Glory be to Yah
|
|
And now we're back into semantics. Human beings don't verify everything they believe - they believe what people tell them, they believe what institutions tell them, they believe what books tell them - they don't verify. But even if you did verify - unless you know the absolute truth, then you DON'T know anything. You can believe, you can think, and you can be convinced...
? We don't know why God does somethings the way he does , but I guess if I created something I could choose to Lord over it as I see Fit.
